Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

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Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

Nale's plan to lure Roy to Cliffport. But it could also Durkon's vampire's plan to lure Roy to the banquet hall. Or Xykon's plan to lure Roy (who admittedly told Elan to do it) to touch Dorukan's Gate. This particular response is a pattern of Roy's.

Not that Shojo could have known that. The only one that preceded him sending Miko north was in Dorukan's dungeon, which Shojo's diviners couldn't have scried due to Cloister even if they knew to look.

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Counterpoint: Shojo ALSO didn't know that Roy would NOT agree to come if he just used sending first.
Which is my basic point: I just see no reason in NOT trying sending first, while STILL sending Miko if sending does not work.

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Originally Posted by Ruck

I see. In that case...


"By a known villain"-- whoever you're referring to-- is not a point in your favor here, as Roy knows there is an immediate threat to be dealt with as a result of being contacted by a known villain. Roy being contacted by a complete stranger to discuss something in person he can't discuss by sending is not nearly the same thing.


Jasdoif already covered this.

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1. I covered Jasdoif......so what's your point?

2. Let's take the Nale example:

Nale used sending to lure Roy to cliffport city. Note that illusions are a thing in this world, so no telling whether Julia was really with Nale or not, right?
And Roy dropped everything he did, rushed with his team to Cliffport, and then entered the warehouse on his own. No scyring the inside, no contacting police, just walking inside and hoping big damn hero Roy will save his sister.

So, if Shojo sended something like:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Your father is here"
And a second sending with Eugene:
"PS: Xykon lives, you moron! Love, dad"
Then Roy would NOT go there?

I find that highly unlikely, considering everything Roy did this far.

And no, Shojo doesn't know all of this. But he ALSO doesn't know that this would NOT work, so why not try?
Eugene HAS managed to influence Roy by "sending" in ghostform before, so why not try the talking approach again first?

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

But then Shojo wouldn’t have any guarantee against Roy changing his mind, which is the purpose of the trial. On the other hand, if Roy changed his mind, [/he] would have leverage against Shojo, since he could rat his betrayal to the paladin (and he could prove it easily: he knows the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard). Yes we know Roy wouldn’t do that but Shojo doesn’t. Hell since his source of info on Roy was Eugene, it’s borderline miraculous Shojo thought Roy was compétent and trustworthy enough to handle this in any capacity.

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With the current plan that happened in the comic, Shojo needs two things:
1) Roy agrees to help Shojo even after Shojo arrested him with force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.
2) Roy agrees to NOT rat out Shojo to the paladins, despite Shojo arrested Roy by force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.

I don't understand what "talking first" would have resonably changed.


And yes, Shojo putting trust into Roy's competence was miraculous, but that's the case anyway, and maybe it has more to to with Roy having witnessed the Gate's destruction than with Shojo evaluating Roy's competence per se.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

CWith the current plan that happened in the comic, Shojo needs two things:
1) Roy agrees to help Shojo even after Shojo arrested him with force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.

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He doesn't have a choice anymore since if he doesn't agree Shojo will "discover" Eugene's imposture and have the trial redone. He threatens as much.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

2) Roy agrees to NOT rat out Shojo to the paladins, despite Shojo arrested Roy by force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.

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Who do you think the Sapphire Guard would believe? Their Lord and Commander or some random Fighter? Roy doesn't have any proof of Shojo hiring him so it would be his wor against his. If their were no fake trial, Roy knowing the Sceret Lore of the Sapphire Guard would be evidence of his claim.

Are people seriously proposing that Shojo should have attempted to Send Roy?

"Need you to Azure City to stand trial for crimes punishable with death. Relax, will eventually be found not guilty. World at stake. Love, Shojo."

Going to work, yes.

If he's able to manage a private Sending, he could just say:

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Xykon alive. Entire world in danger. In contact with your father. Bring party to Azure city immediately for further information and assistance. Signed, Lord Shojo.

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Followed by a second Sending:

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Father says Xykon not alive-alive; has not spontaneously returned to life. Is still undead, still around due to phylactery. Says Wizard would have known this.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Counterpoint: Shojo ALSO didn't know that Roy would NOT agree to come if he just used sending first.
Which is my basic point: I just see no reason in NOT trying sending first, while STILL sending Miko if sending does not work.

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Shojo does. That's all that matters.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

1. I covered Jasdoif......so what's your point?

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You responded to him, but I don't think you countered his points at all.

Also:

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

So, if Shojo sended something like:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Your father is here"
And a second sending with Eugene:
"PS: Xykon lives, you moron! Love, dad"
Then Roy would NOT go there?

I find that highly unlikely, considering everything Roy did this far.

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What you find "highly unlikely", as a reader of the comic with omniscient information, is a lot less relevant than "What Shojo thinks he needs to do."

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

And no, Shojo doesn't know all of this. But he ALSO doesn't know that this would NOT work, so why not try?

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"Why not try anything you aren't sure won't work"? That's your defense? Really? I dunno, here's one reason: Shojo believes he's only got one shot at this and has to make sure he gets it right the first time.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

2. Let's take the Nale example:

Nale used sending to lure Roy to cliffport city. Note that illusions are a thing in this world, so no telling whether Julia was really with Nale or not, right?

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How would Nale create a believable illusion of a person he's never met or seen?

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Originally Posted by Aquillion

If he's able to manage a private Sending, he could just say:



Followed by a second Sending:

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Followed by Roy thinking "oh, Xykon's alive? Better visit the Oracle and figure out where to go next", and skipping going to Shojo at all (if nothing else to not have to deal with his dad). Since Shojo wants to be kept in the loop, the possibility that Roy might decide not to is not to his liking.

Grey Wolf

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

He doesn't have a choice anymore since if he doesn't agree Shojo will "discover" Eugene's imposture and have the trial redone. He threatens as much.

Who do you think the Sapphire Guard would believe? Their Lord and Commander or some random Fighter? Roy doesn't have any proof of Shojo hiring him so it would be his wor against his. If their were no fake trial, Roy knowing the Sceret Lore of the Sapphire Guard would be evidence of his claim.

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There's no reason to include secret saphire guard lore in the sending, so I wouldn't recommend Shojo doing so.

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Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

Are people seriously proposing that Shojo should have attempted to Send Roy?

"Need you to Azure City to stand trial for crimes punishable with death. Relax, will eventually be found not guilty. World at stake. Love, Shojo."

Going to work, yes.

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Yes, but not with the message you propose.
How about you imagine this one instead:

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Originally Posted by Aquillion

If he's able to manage a private Sending, he could just say:



Followed by a second Sending:

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(please look above: quotes in quotes apperantly doesn't work)

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Originally Posted by Ruck

Shojo does. That's all that matters.

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Yes. And I don't see a compelling reason why Shojo shouldn't try sending first. He didn't and I think that's a mistake, and I also think that is either an oversight (aka small plothole) or a deliberate decision to show that Shojo makes stupid decisions as well (aka NOT a hyperintelligent mastermind schemer as Lacuna said).

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Originally Posted by Ruck

You responded to him, but I don't think you countered his points at all.

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And what does your point help the discussion, then? Are you answering for Jasdoif or what's the deal?
Otherwise I guess I'll just wait for what he says to my point I gave in response to him.

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Originally Posted by Ruck

Also:



What you find "highly unlikely", as a reader of the comic with omniscient information, is a lot less relevant than "What Shojo thinks he needs to do."



"Why not try anything you aren't sure won't work"? That's your defense? Really? I dunno, here's one reason: Shojo believes he's only got one shot at this and has to make sure he gets it right the first time.

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Why should Shojo believe he has only one shot?
Sending (talk) + Miko (force).
Two shots, one with the bonus of having a more cooperative Roy, the second as a backup if that doesn't work.

If you can try something that just might work, with little cost attached to trying, the default stance should geneally be "Let's try that first".
In other words, one would need a compelling reason NOT to do it.
And so far, the only compelling reasoning I have read is that it basically WAS a bad decision by Shojo.

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Originally Posted by Ruck

How would Nale create a believable illusion of a person he's never met or seen?

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Errrm, by scrying on her?
Or visiting her without abducting her?
Or is abduction a requirement to cast illusionary pictures of someone?

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Yes. And I don't see a compelling reason why Shojo shouldn't try sending first. He didn't and I think that's a mistake, and I also think that is either an oversight (aka small plothole) or a deliberate decision to show that Shojo makes stupid decisions as well (aka NOT a hyperintelligent mastermind schemer as Lacuna said).

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People have given you multiple reasons why Shojo wouldn't do that first or how a Sending could backfire them. Just declaring "I don't find them compelling" is not, well, compelling.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

And what does your point help the discussion, then? Are you answering for Jasdoif or what's the deal?
Otherwise I guess I'll just wait for what he says to my point I gave in response to him.

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It means, if you want to debate the point, you can't just say you refuted it when you didn't. Similar to the above.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Why should Shojo believe he has only one shot?
Sending (talk) + Miko (force).
Two shots, one with the bonus of having a more cooperative Roy, the second as a backup if that doesn't work.

If you can try something that just might work, with little cost attached to trying, the default stance should geneally be "Let's try that first".
In other words, one would need a compelling reason NOT to do it.
And so far, the only compelling reasoning I have read is that it basically WAS a bad decision by Shojo.

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Again, people have given you multiple examples of how a Sending could backfire. You have chosen not to address any of them.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Errrm, by scrying on her?
Or visiting her without abducting her?
Or is abduction a requirement to cast illusionary pictures of someone?

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1)How are they going to scry on someone they know nothing about?
2)Okay, so they get close enough to her to abduct her, but don't, and this is supposed to fool Roy and she's not actually in danger? Setting aside the fact that there's no reason they just wouldn't abduct her, if they're able to get that close to her, she is in danger.

When your answers amount to "If we assume all these needless complexities, it could work!" they aren't much in the way of answers.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Yes, but not with the message you propose.
How about you imagine this one instead:

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Xykon alive. Entire world in danger. In contact with your father. Bring party to Azure city immediately for further information and assistance. Signed, Lord Shojo.

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Problems:

1) The Paladins seem to already know that the Order was responsible for blowing up Dorukan's. They will want to bring the Order to Justice.

2) Shojo needs to make Roy stand trial, in order to have a legitimate reason to reveal him the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard. Sure, he can tell him anyway in secret, but the Paladins wouldn't like that if they happen to hear about it. For Shojo, it is best to play it safe and conduct his mock trial plan.

3) If Shojo reveals the true identity of his summoned "Deva", the chances he can rig the Trial are slim.

4) As Grey Wolf suggested, Roy wouldn't be particulary moved to go to Azure City on the information that his father is there. If anything, such reveal would lure Roy to move as far away as possible from there.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.

2. Roy DID work with Shojo AFTER knowing Shojo treated Roy as **** - it might have even HELPED if Shojo could point to "Look, I TRIED to get you here without force, but you didn't come. So, for the sake of the world, I HAD to use force as SECOND measure."

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It's very interesting, that you choose Roy going behind Shojo's back as a reason to guarantee a Roy useful to Shojo trusting Shojo even less, would be an improvement in Shojo's eyes. Doubling down on Roy's defiant streak is a step in the opposite direction.

And like you said, it's true that Roy knew who Nale when Nale contacted him; as opposed to whatever caster Shojo had who would be no different than a spammer to Roy...unless that caster was Eugene, who is worse than a spammer to Roy (and Eugene would have no problem with bringing that up to Shojo...nor, I suppose, with contacting Roy on his own initiative if he felt it furthered his goal of getting into the afterlife).

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The key detail in Shojo's decision-making is that Shojo had "the paladins do not discover my ruses", where ruses includes both senility and flagrantly violating the oath of the Sapphire Guard, as his primary criteria. Getting a message to Roy would have far nicer, for Roy; but including actual details of what he wanted Roy to do, the best way he'd have to convince Roy to come to Azure City, could possibly pose a complication for Shojo...And that's what was important to Shojo.

Bringing Roy and the rest of the Order in for the trial over destroying Dorukan's Gate, during which the paladins would tolerate Shojo revealing the secrets of the Sapphire Guard, presented little personal risk to Shojo to get to that point; and he'd have his usual control over the environment (Azure City) when he decided to present his offer. So that's the route he chose.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Nale used sending to lure Roy to cliffport city. Note that illusions are a thing in this world, so no telling whether Julia was really with Nale or not, right?

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That would depend on how sending's "The subject recognizes you if it knows you" is applied, I think.

Sorry forgot about this thread.....

@Jasdoif: How about this:

1. Shojo, to Wizard/Cleric who can cast Sending:
"Uh, my cat wants you to send this as a magic message to some guy called Roy Greenhilt:
×Please come visit uncle Shojo @ Azure City to talk about Xykon. Love, your father, kisses from Julia and Sara×
Uh, and my cat wants you to scry to see whether he starts moving to Azure City."
Not every caster is a paladin, right? NO NEED to inform any Sapphire guard person to send, right?

2. If Roy doesn't move towards AC, talk to Miko:
"My cat wants you to bring the Order of the stick to me, for weakening the fabric of the world. Also my cat wants you to bring them alive."

I'm sure someone more versed in English could find better wordings, but I fail to see a general problem with this approach.
Plan A gets you a cooperative Roy to AC, Plan B works as shown in the comic.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Sorry forgot about this thread.....

@Jasdoif: How about this:

1. Shojo, to Wizard/Cleric who can cast Sending:
"Uh, my cat wants you to send this as a magic message to some guy called Roy Greenhilt:
×Please come visit uncle Shojo @ Azure City to talk about Xykon. Love, your father, kisses from Julia and Sara×
Uh, and my cat wants you to scry to see whether he starts moving to Azure City."
Not every caster is a paladin, right? NO NEED to inform any Sapphire guard person to send, right?

2. If Roy doesn't move towards AC, talk to Miko:
"My cat wants you to bring the Order of the stick to me, for weakening the fabric of the world. Also my cat wants you to bring them alive."

I'm sure someone more versed in English could find better wordings, but I fail to see a general problem with this approach.
Plan A gets you a cooperative Roy to AC, Plan B works as shown in the comic.

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Because Shojo is afraid that once Roy answers the Sending and agrees to help he (Shojo) would have no way of controlling Roy. And Shojo doesn't do "trust that the guy is Good/competent enough to work in your best interests".

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Sorry forgot about this thread.....

@Jasdoif: How about this:

1. Shojo, to Wizard/Cleric who can cast Sending:
"Uh, my cat wants you to send this as a magic message to some guy called Roy Greenhilt:
×Please come visit uncle Shojo @ Azure City to talk about Xykon. Love, your father, kisses from Julia and Sara×
Uh, and my cat wants you to scry to see whether he starts moving to Azure City."
Not every caster is a paladin, right? NO NEED to inform any Sapphire guard person to send, right?

2. If Roy doesn't move towards AC, talk to Miko:
"My cat wants you to bring the Order of the stick to me, for weakening the fabric of the world. Also my cat wants you to bring them alive."

I'm sure someone more versed in English could find better wordings, but I fail to see a general problem with this approach.
Plan A gets you a cooperative Roy to AC, Plan B works as shown in the comic.

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If Roy blabs to Miko about receiving a Sending from Shojo in Azure City, it could create significant problems for Shojo.

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Originally Posted by Ruck

People have given you multiple reasons why Shojo wouldn't do that first or how a Sending could backfire them. Just declaring "I don't find them compelling" is not, well, compelling.

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I think you have to weigh this against the risk that sending Miko could backfire. What if the order resisted arrest? What if they fought back and killed her? (They nearly beat her on two occasions!) Then he would have wasted his best Paladin, wasted the extensive travel time Miko spent reaching them, alienated the order, and accomplished nothing. Once they've determined that Shojo is trying to arrest them (and is therefore an enemy), most other options are off the table.

I'd argue that a Sending is far less risky. Yes, there are ways it could go wrong. Yes, if it does go wrong, it might complicate moving to plan B. But in both respects it seems faster, safer, and less likely to go catastrophically wrong than just sending Miko as plan A.

He knows that Roy is determined to satisfy the blood oath and beat Xykon, so information about Xykon is, realistically speaking, better bait for him than "send our most hotheaded Paladin to arrest him, possibly violently." There was absolutely no reason to think the order would willingly allow themselves to be dragged halfway across the world to stand trial - the fact that they even allowed it as far as they did was due to freak coincidences - and if / when it came to a fight, while Miko is strong, there was absolutely no reason to think she could reliably beat the entire order. They might not kill her, given that she's a Paladin, but even that isn't certain (either he knows they have a murderous evil team member, or he knows nothing about their team composition; either way Miko dying is a very real risk.) There's also a very real risk that Miko, being overzealous, might actually kill them if they resist arrest.

Also, sending Miko gets her directly involved with what's ultimately a deception on his part; having her in constant contact with the order risks her realizing what was up when he later recruits them, or having lingering bad feelings if she had to fight them. This could cause problems with her down the line... as, in fact, it did, leading to his death.

You have to weigh the risks of alternative plans vs. the risks of the one he chose. And the one he chose was extremely risky in several ways. A Sending + Teleport isn't without risk, sure, but the risks are far more manageable, especially since (with careful wording) he could, if necessary, justify bringing them in quickly as part of an investigation into what they did to the gate, while making it clear to Roy that he needed to come because Xykon was still alive.

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Originally Posted by Aquillion

(They nearly beat her on two occasions!)

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Come again? Neither the fight outside Wooden Forest nor the fight outside the Weary Travelers' Inn & Tavern was anything approaching close.

By Rich's description of the fight outside the inn, Roy might have dropped her if he'd attacked at the end. He just surrendered because "she drops me and then slaughters all of us because we didn't surrender" was a risk he wasn't willing to take.

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Originally Posted by Kish

By Rich's description of the fight outside the inn, Roy might have dropped her if he'd attacked at the end. He just surrendered because "she drops me and then slaughters all of us because we didn't surrender" was a risk he wasn't willing to take.

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That "might" is doing a lot of work. In Mr. Burlew's post, it's even all-capitalized. It also refers only to Roy's thought process, and does not say that Miko's remaining hit points actually were lower than Roy's likely (or even maximum) damage output.

I maintain it wasn't even close. Even if it was, however, that doesn't get us up to two near-defeats for Miko by the Order.

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Originally Posted by Aquillion

*snip*

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What you believe is less risky is less important than what Shojo believes is less risky. And as I've said already, it's clear he overestimated his ability to rein in Miko's violent tendencies; how his life ended is pretty indisputable evidence of that. I do not think Miko was in as much danger from the Order as you seem to-- possible in theory, but as zimmerwald has said, it wasn't as close as you make it sound.

I think it's important to look at what happened not through the lens of optimal decision-making, but Shojo's motivations. Given how he prioritizes being in control of the situation, and how he overestimates his control of Miko, I believe his decision to be plausible and reasonable.

While sending Miko in particular backfired spectacularly in the long run, arresting them via the Sapphire Guard really did involve the fewest complications as far as I can tell.

• If Shojo sent someone to contact the Order without a Sapphire Guard arrest warrant, they almost certainly would've sent a Paladin to arrest them anyway.
• And if Shojo explicitly forbade them to, that would probably lead to them either suspecting his duplicity or believing his senility was getting severe enough to warrant taking him off the throne.
• If he sends a non-SG messenger (Teleport Wizard or someone else), then it becomes a race between said messenger and the Sapphire Guard, complete with really awkward conversation when they meet.

By getting them arrested for blowing up the Gate and having them tried and found Not Guilty, the Order's no longer in the Sapphire Guard's crosshairs, which is really helpful when you're trying to work with them behind the Guard's back.

TL;DR, the fixed trial helps avert unwanted scrutiny from the Sapphire Guard.

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Originally Posted by Grey Watcher

While sending Miko in particular backfired spectacularly in the long run, arresting them via the Sapphire Guard really did involve the fewest complications as far as I can tell.

[LIST][*]If Shojo sent someone to contact the Order without a Sapphire Guard arrest warrant, they almost certainly would've sent a Paladin to arrest them anyway.

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How would that happen? No one but Shojo, ever, gives orders to the Sapphire Guard in online content (meaning, since the timeline of How the Paladin Got His Scar). The closest anything comes is Miko snapping orders at Hinjo and a couple unnamed female paladins--all of whom primarily act irritated in response.

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Originally Posted by Kish

How would that happen? No one but Shojo, ever, gives orders to the Sapphire Guard in online content (meaning, since the timeline of How the Paladin Got His Scar). The closest anything comes is Miko snapping orders at Hinjo and a couple unnamed female paladins--all of whom primarily act irritated in response.

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Fair point, but unless Shojo kept the Gate Integrity Monitor strictly for his eyes only, I think the second bullet point is still valid: a failure to send someone (or even failure to use SG resources to divine their identities) would raise a lot of really inconvenient questions. Not good for a low-profile operation.

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Originally Posted by Aquillion

I think you have to weigh this against the risk that sending Miko could backfire. What if the order resisted arrest? What if they fought back and killed her? (They nearly beat her on two occasions!) Then he would have wasted his best Paladin, wasted the extensive travel time Miko spent reaching them, alienated the order, and accomplished nothing. Once they've determined that Shojo is trying to arrest them (and is therefore an enemy), most other options are off the table...

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Oh joy! I was actually dreading returning to this thread, but I'm glad to see we're in broad agreement on this topic.

Won't dig in just yet, though. I have a few errands to run.

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

Because Shojo is afraid that once Roy answers the Sending and agrees to help he (Shojo) would have no way of controlling Roy. And Shojo doesn't do "trust that the guy is Good/competent enough to work in your best interests".

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Does he not? In the plan he does in the comic, how exactly does he control Roy after the fake trial? By hoping Roy will do the best he can, I'd think.

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Originally Posted by Keltest

If Roy blabs to Miko about receiving a Sending from Shojo in Azure City, it could create significant problems for Shojo.

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That doesn't count, because if Roy blabs to Miko about secretly working for Shojo behind the paladins' backs would also cause problems for Shojo (oh wait, it DID cause Shojo problems when Miko learned that!), but Shojo STILL employed Roy.

Either way, he could have the Sending be worded as coming from Eugene, instead.

There's just no way a simple "call" could be more risky than the fake arrest & fake order & secret employment business was, if we take this seriously.
But we don't have to. The comic was still a parody back then, and the reason is given: "Stupid railroad plot" ;-)

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Does he not? In the plan he does in the comic, how exactly does he control Roy after the fake trial? By hoping Roy will do the best he can, I'd think.

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By threatening him the moment he says this isn't his business.
That doesn't count, because if Roy blabs to Miko about secretly working for Shojo behind the paladins' backs would also cause problems for Shojo (oh wait, it DID cause Shojo problems when Miko learned that!), but Shojo STILL employed Roy.[/QUOTE]
Yes but with the fake trial Shojo could be sure Roy wouldn't tell anyone.

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Originally Posted by Mightymosy

Either way, he could have the Sending be worded as coming from Eugene, instead.

There's just no way a simple "call" could be more risky than the fake arrest & fake order & secret employment business was, if we take this seriously.

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Tht's because you have saner priorities than Shojo. A character acting sub-optimally is not a flaw in the story, especially when that is consistent with that character's personnality.

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Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

I maintain it wasn't even close. Even if it was, however, that doesn't get us up to two near-defeats for Miko by the Order.

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The first time, they could have likely beaten her after the rain stopped (Haley was planning to do so.) The only reason they didn't was because Roy wanted to bone her and Durkon mistakenly believed the storm had been a sign from Thor.

And even the second time (which the description does make out to be a lot closer than you're saying), the fact that Durkon refused to contribute and only healed people slightly to stabilize them was a huge factor. If he'd been attacking or providing proper support, Miko would have lost easily. And, again, the misconception that led him to that position was pure luck.

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Originally Posted by Aquillion

The first time, they could have easily beaten her after the rain stopped (Haley was planning to do so.) The only reason they didn't was because Roy wanted to bone her and Durkon mistakenly believed the storm had been a sign from Thor.

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I question that assessment of their abilities. Miko's sucker punch hurt, but it wasn't the key to her victory, Durkon's claims about the storm aside.

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Originally Posted by Grey Watcher

While sending Miko in particular backfired spectacularly in the long run, arresting them via the Sapphire Guard really did involve the fewest complications as far as I can tell.

• If Shojo sent someone to contact the Order without a Sapphire Guard arrest warrant, they almost certainly would've sent a Paladin to arrest them anyway.
• And if Shojo explicitly forbade them to, that would probably lead to them either suspecting his duplicity or believing his senility was getting severe enough to warrant taking him off the throne.
• If he sends a non-SG messenger (Teleport Wizard or someone else), then it becomes a race between said messenger and the Sapphire Guard, complete with really awkward conversation when they meet.

By getting them arrested for blowing up the Gate and having them tried and found Not Guilty, the Order's no longer in the Sapphire Guard's crosshairs, which is really helpful when you're trying to work with them behind the Guard's back.

TL;DR, the fixed trial helps avert unwanted scrutiny from the Sapphire Guard.

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He can imply to the Sapphire Guard that his sending is intended to get Roy over for questioning. Remember, most of them are not Miko - they'll understand that a polite "we need you to come so we can discuss what happened in the Redmountain Hills" is reasonable, especially since they want to avoid letting information leak about the gate (and given Shojo's idiosyncrasies, him being polite to Roy isn't really weird or suspicious as long as he's ultimately getting him to come.)

Shojo's smart, he can thread the needle between a wording that would avoid scaring Roy off and a wording that the Paladins would accept. (Although there's no reason the Paladins actually need to know his precise wording - he can just tell them that he's sent Roy a message to summon him for questioning, and if Roy doesn't come then eventually they can go get him. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and there's no particular reason why he needs to tell Roy he risks being arrested if he comes. Most of the Paladins are smart enough to realize that using the carrot before the stick is fair.)

Keep in mind that Shojo is able to get away with "do this because my cat tells you to" most of the time. He doesn't have to give detailed rationales for his actions as long as they make broad sense. And "we've determined some broad information about Roy that we can use to convince him to come peacefully" is fairly reasonable.

I feel like any claim to the effect of "he could have trusted Roy/The Sapphire Guard to do/not do X" is kind of missing the point. Shojo was not a trusting individual, period. Maybe he could have afforded a little more, but he didn't. That's part of his character. And yeah, its a character flaw that ended up getting him killed, and there are alternatives he could have taken if he didn't have it, but he WAS mistrustful, and he preferred coercion to persuasion because he was unable to trust people enough to rely on the latter.

Okay, I'm just gonna wade in here and reply to stuff in a fairly ad-hoc manner, since the last few pages look like they've been a clusterfump there's no way to easily untangle. But hey, props to MightyMosy and Aquillion, who I think are getting my drift.

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Originally Posted by Aquillion

I think you have to weigh this against the risk that sending Miko could backfire. What if the order resisted arrest? What if they fought back and killed her? (They nearly beat her on two occasions!) Then he would have wasted his best Paladin, wasted the extensive travel time Miko spent reaching them, alienated the order, and accomplished nothing. Once they've determined that Shojo is trying to arrest them (and is therefore an enemy), most other options are off the table.

I'd argue that a Sending is far less risky. Yes, there are ways it could go wrong. Yes, if it does go wrong, it might complicate moving to plan B. But in both respects it seems faster, safer, and less likely to go catastrophically wrong than just sending Miko as plan A.

He knows that Roy is determined to satisfy the blood oath and beat Xykon, so information about Xykon is, realistically speaking, better bait for him than "send our most hotheaded Paladin to arrest him, possibly violently." There was absolutely no reason to think the order would willingly allow themselves to be dragged halfway across the world to stand trial - the fact that they even allowed it as far as they did was due to freak coincidences - and if / when it came to a fight, while Miko is strong, there was absolutely no reason to think she could reliably beat the entire order. They might not kill her, given that she's a Paladin, but even that isn't certain (either he knows they have a murderous evil team member, or he knows nothing about their team composition; either way Miko dying is a very real risk.) There's also a very real risk that Miko, being overzealous, might actually kill them if they resist arrest.

Also, sending Miko gets her directly involved with what's ultimately a deception on his part; having her in constant contact with the order risks her realizing what was up when he later recruits them, or having lingering bad feelings if she had to fight them. This could cause problems with her down the line... as, in fact, it did, leading to his death.

You have to weigh the risks of alternative plans vs. the risks of the one he chose. And the one he chose was extremely risky in several ways. A Sending + Teleport isn't without risk, sure, but the risks are far more manageable, especially since (with careful wording) he could, if necessary, justify bringing them in quickly as part of an investigation into what they did to the gate, while making it clear to Roy that he needed to come because Xykon was still alive.

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Originally Posted by Grey Watcher

While sending Miko in particular backfired spectacularly in the long run, arresting them via the Sapphire Guard really did involve the fewest complications as far as I can tell.

• If Shojo sent someone to contact the Order without a Sapphire Guard arrest warrant, they almost certainly would've sent a Paladin to arrest them anyway.
• And if Shojo explicitly forbade them to, that would probably lead to them either suspecting his duplicity or believing his senility was getting severe enough to warrant taking him off the throne.
• If he sends a non-SG messenger (Teleport Wizard or someone else), then it becomes a race between said messenger and the Sapphire Guard, complete with really awkward conversation when they meet.

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Oh, it's very likely that the Guard at large would have insisted on an investigation into the Gate's destruction (unless Shojo, for some reason, was the only one who knew the Gate was destroyed, which he probably wasn't, given he says that his diviner told him the Redmountain Gate has been destroyed.) But again, this only raises the question of why the Guard at large- including Miko herself- didn't demand a more rational response to the problem (e.g, full-scale mobilisation, use of teleport/wind-walk.)

In any case, Shojo doesn't need to send any physical person in order to contact the OOTS- he can just use a Sending spell. And there's no good reason why the Guard themselves can't just be teleported/wind-walked to the OOTS' location, thus retrieving them near-instantaneously, rather than weeks later. Then he can run the trial, pull whatever fraudulent shenanigans he needs to, and TP them to wherever he needs them to go next in less than 48 hours.

But all of this is predicated on the idea that Shojo and Eugene should primarily care about retrieving the Order at all. They shouldn't. Eugene's top priority is killing Xykon, and Shojo's top priority is safeguarding the Gates- to the extent that Shojo suspects Xykon (and Redcloak) have nefarious intentions regarding the Gates, destroying Xykon would solve both their problems. Getting backup from the Order is a strictly secondary consideration.

And there is nothing to stop Shojo and Eugene from sharing their information about Xykon and Redcloak with the paladins. There's no actual reason for it, aside from "they are lying liars who lie". Shojo's ostensible purpose for hiring the Order was to gather evidence of an active threat to the Gates, when he has a source of that evidence already floating right there in his throne room.

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Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster

Okay, I'm just gonna wade in here and reply to stuff in a fairly ad-hoc manner, since the last few pages look like they've been a clusterfump there's no way to easily untangle. But hey, props to MightyMosy and Aquillion, who I think are getting my drift.



Oh, it's very likely that the Guard at large would have insisted on an investigation into the Gate's destruction (unless Shojo, for some reason, was the only one who knew the Gate was destroyed, which he probably wasn't, given he says that his diviner told him the Redmountain Gate has been destroyed.) But again, this only raises the question of why the Guard at large- including Miko herself- didn't demand a more rational response to the problem (e.g, full-scale mobilisation, use of teleport/wind-walk.)

In any case, Shojo doesn't need to send any physical person in order to contact the OOTS- he can just use a Sending spell. And there's no good reason why the Guard themselves can't just be teleported/wind-walked to the OOTS' location, thus retrieving them near-instantaneously, rather than weeks later. Then he can run the trial, pull whatever fraudulent shenanigans he needs to, and TP them to wherever he needs them to go next in less than 48 hours.

But all of this is predicated on the idea that Shojo and Eugene should primarily care about retrieving the Order at all. They shouldn't. Eugene's top priority is killing Xykon, and Shojo's top priority is safeguarding the Gates- to the extent that Shojo suspects Xykon (and Redcloak) have nefarious intentions regarding the Gates, destroying Xykon would solve both their problems. Getting backup from the Order is a strictly secondary consideration.

And there is nothing to stop Shojo and Eugene from sharing their information about Xykon and Redcloak with the paladins. There's no actual reason for it, aside from "they are lying liars who lie". Shojo's ostensible purpose for hiring the Order was to gather evidence of an active threat to the Gates, when he has a source of that evidence already floating right there in his throne room.

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Shojo doesn't believe the paladins would be willing to go after Xykon without proof that he was an imminent and overwhelming threat to the Azure City gate.

Your argument is basically "shojo should have ignored his own reasoning in favor of my reasoning and priorities, because reasons." That's not compelling. Its never been compelling, and I don't understand why you keep repeating it as if it proves anything.