As far as we know, they did work during the trial.
Were any of the statements made by beings "in the chair" covered by the spells, proven to be false? Intentionally false - a lie, rather than a "mistake of fact"?
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As far as we know, they did work during the trial.
Were any of the statements made by beings "in the chair" covered by the spells, proven to be false? Intentionally false - a lie, rather than a "mistake of fact"?
Well, the statement by the being of pure Law and Good that it was, indeed, such a being was demonstrably false when it turned out to be Eugene casting an illusion.
It wasn't exactly in the Zone of Truth though. Wasn't the Zone put up after his appearance?
First appearance of disguised Eugene:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html
First appearance of Chair of Truth:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html
Plus Hinjo had no idea it was not one that came through. Shojo himself never said anything.
And technically, he did summon a being of pure good and law. It's just not one that came through. :P
Oh, sure. But Miko wouldn't have any way of knowing that, is the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamishspence
Are you suggesting Miko would assume something was flawed because it did not conform to her preconceived expectations? :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster
Didn’t Miko not really have any way of knowing quite the extent of what was faked and what was true? Obviously deciding to execute Shojo herself was going too far, but not trusting the order made sense to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
Yeah, that's my point. One doesn't have to posit some cartoonishly unreasonable degree of suspicion for Miko to want the Order and/or Shojo arrested on the basis of available information.Quote:
Originally Posted by CriticalFailure
She didn't have any way of knowing if the laws were corrupt, because a corrupt book of laws could be made to look exactly like a good one to Miko's eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by CriticalFailure
I don't have any way of knowing if the world is a simulation, because a simulation could be made to look exactly like a real world.
The question Miko should have asked is if there was enough reason to doubt the validity of the law and whatnot. But she's Miko, so she didn't.
Well based on what she overheard it was obvious that Shojo was manipulating the legal system to collaborate with the order behind the paladins’ backs, it just wasn’t clear the extent to which it was occurring or what had/hadn’t been lied about. Executing Shojo was going too far, but I think distrusting the order made sense.
I would strongly suspect that Azurite law does not make specific provision for rigging the outcome of a trial and springing convicted murderers from prison. And I could easily imagine that Miko has memorised every regulation and bylaw currently in force in Azure City, including those she doesn't like. ("Floggings for pickpockets!? Far too lenient in my view.")Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
Yes, that trial which Shojo ran was obviously corrupt. She has no good reason to assume that the court system is so corrupt that basically the same thing would happen with Hinjo running the show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster
I'd be surprised if it wasn't covered under a litany of other laws (obstruction of justice is the most obvious one right off the bat, aiding and abetting, accessories after the fact, I'm sure an actual lawyer could point out other very common laws most states employ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster
I know it's a fantasy world where thousand-lb dragons fly and shoot fire from their mouths while casting magical spells, but the lines gotta be drawn somewhere. And a cop (even an elite one backed by the gods) knowing all criminal laws is miles past wherever that line is drawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster
@ Pelee: What's the name of the cop in Disc world who remembers every law in the book? :smallbiggrin:
Sir Coppy, famous for his filmed beating of the suspension of disbelief.:smallamused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightymosy
Carrot Ironfoundersson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightymosy
If Hinjo is running the show, this implies that Shojo has already been arrested and the Order have been detained for (re)trial. This particular debate was about whether arresting Shojo and the Order would be justified in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
GreatWyrm seemed to be trying to argue that Miko had no way of distinguishing between corrupt and non-corrupt laws, and I was simply pointing out that Azurite law almost certainly didn't make specific exceptions for... all the stuff you've mentioned. In other words, Shojo's criminality was totally obvious by then, regardless of how the laws worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
Why? I know OOTS is an anachronistic mishmash, but the law codes of ancient societies weren't all that complicated. (Even the english translation of the tang code is only a hundred pages or so, excluding modern commentary and appendices.) Most holy books are much meatier, and I expect Miko knew hers by heart.Quote:
I know it's a fantasy world where thousand-lb dragons fly and shoot fire from their mouths while casting magical spells, but the lines gotta be drawn somewhere. And a cop (even an elite one backed by the gods) knowing all criminal laws is miles past wherever that line is drawn.
Given that Shojo did not fake a trial under Azurite law at all, but rather independently in his position as head of the Sapphire Guard, its unlikely that Azurite law has anything at all to say about his actions.
I was with you until the last sentence. Criminality is by definition regarding how the laws work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster
Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltest
Okay, but I just mean it's highly unlikely that Shojo had distorted his own code of laws to the point where what he was caught doing was actually legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
...Actually, Keltest may have a point. If arresting the Order in the first place was done on sketchy legal grounds, then the paladins can't reasonably throw those charges at Shojo in a secular Azurite court without also implicating themselves in the whole affair. Belkar's sentencing was based on the murder he committed, which is presumably recognised as criminal independently of anything the Guard were up to, but anything related to the Order's trial is something the paladins can't really explain to the city's magistrates without raising a bunch of other awkward questions.Quote:
Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.
Oh, totally agree on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster
Sure they can; to turn around how he put it, Shojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard, but separately the Lord of the City. Even if both are legally authorized, because he wears two hats he can be caught up in conflict of interest which could lead to being in an actionable position without the SG being tethered along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster
The positions and organisations themselves may be legally authorised (though if the Guard's existence itself is supposed to be closely hidden, I'm not clear on how.) The question is whether Shojo committed some manner of crime himself by ordering his underling/s to (potentially) violate national boundaries in pursuit of suspects whose alleged crimes can't actually be explained without revealing state secrets. And if he did, Miko would be an accessory to the crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
Medieval lords were frequently given broad or total leeway when it came to law enforcement. I doubt that arresting foreign agents for a day, then releasing them after clearing them of charges would be illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
They also had rampant diseases and lacked anything closely resembling modern metropolises. Stickworld is fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltest
Whats your point? No, stickworld is not a perfect 1:1 match for medieval Asian governments, but the alternative is to just throw our hands up and scream that theres nothing at all we can do here to come to any conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
If nothing else, if it was illegal for Shojo to arrest the Order under Azurite law, then it would also be illegal to arrest Shojo under Azurite law, prior to having found him guilty at a trial.
That's.... that's really not how arrests work. Not to mention a false equivalence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltest
Hey, youre the one who said that the Order's arrest would be kidnapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
Could, not would. And that doesn't equate to needing to be convicted before being arrested in any event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltest
But then whats illegitimate about the Order's arrest, in the eyes of the law?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltest
Also, should I be concerned that you're taking hypothetical examples as me stating things are set in stone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee