Just to be clear, the spreadsheet shows you previously voted it at 4.8; is this a change?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
BAB is overrated. You're making touch attacks anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans
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Just to be clear, the spreadsheet shows you previously voted it at 4.8; is this a change?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
BAB is overrated. You're making touch attacks anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans
Actually yeah. I had the chance to play one for a brief period, and I basically ignored the knight's challenges except for fighting challenges. If I were to reevaluate it, I would say t4 just to balance the points, but specific placement I think it lives at 4.48 just like fighter because it is no less effective than fighter, in some ways more, in other ways less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troacctid
There's certainly an advantage to having everything enumerated in one place, but I think you'll find that the Transformation domain kicks in pretty hard if you research a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyfuel
Transformation domain gives you Alter Self at level 3. Alter Self gives you fly/swim/burrow as well as natural armor up to +8 and claw/claw/bite w/multiattack. Clerics of course can get it 24/7 at level 3 via DMM[Persist] which has many other applications as well. Here's a tradeoff table:
Both have:Code:Alter Self Wildshape
+L3 -L6 (to cast spells)
+keep gear -lose gear
-keep physical +new physical stats
-no Ex attacks +gain Ex attacks
+no familiarity -requires familiarity
+effectively all day (via DMM persist or just hours available)
-requires feat to use fully (Natural spell, or a partial share of DMM[Persist])
+good utility
+good combat
At level 9 the cleric then gets Polymorph which is generally far more adaptable than Wild Shape. And a level 15, there is Polymorph Any Object which is broken-good. At level 17 the Transformation cleric gets Shapechange. It's not until level 18 that the spontaneous druid also gets Shapechange.
Overall, the spontaneous druid has some advantage L6-L8, while the transformation cleric has an edge L3-L5 and L9-L17.
I'm not super familiar with the full range on polymorph, but wild shape's access to extraordinary special qualities is a pretty big deal. Not sure how much more potent and adaptable polymorph is as a result.
Access to Ex special qualities is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by eggynack
Polymorph gives you access to a wider range of forms and it allows to manipulate your type which has many beneficial effects.
I'm just kinda skeptical that polymorph covers all the ground of the special qualities of all aberration forms. It's a lot of ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrowhale
Interesting, but what is actually the point of this? Are there people that will not play a fighter because is it tier 4?
No the point of the tier list is to help balance in the groups because when you have in a 5 people group a soulborn, a scout, a duskblade,a sorcerer and a cleric it will not so fun for the first (even if he optimize like the hell) the second will have his niche but the other will be better, the third maybe will do more damage than the other, while the first two will be the main people of the party.
One could easily play a tier 4 group. One figther, one scout, one shadowcaster and one incarnate, they would have their role (if they do a good teamwork especially for the incarnate) and it can work better for all the player (as a game ) where all of them are essential to the party while in the first the cleric and the sorcerer would have the upper hand in many situations
I'm not sure Sohei got a fair shake. No one ever answered if the 3.5 Update should be considered - it was official (Dragon Mag), and considering the 3.0 version gives a Bonus Feat that no longer exists, I think it's fair to assess the updated version. It's not a massive upgrade, but it is an upgrade - there are no downside outside of potentially losing Iajutsu Focus as a class skill. (The update actually doesn't change the class skills, but since Iajutsu Focus isn't a 3.5 skill, I would think it's plausible to remove it as a class skill). Sohei also got very few votes, ended up at 4.5, and then Kurald broke the tier and voted it into the Tier 5 stratum.
Also, I think some people might have thought their spell list is worse than it actually is, because the-site-we-can't-mention-by-name doesn't actually have the full list of spells. It's still pretty anemic, but it has some winners on it - Prayer, Protection from Chaos, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Shield of Faith, Resist Energy, Bull's Strength - it's small but not worthless. Also, as a prepared caster, they do have native access to Sanctified Spells, which gives you some things that are hard to come by in Tier 4 or 5, like flight (100 ft with good movement - only 1 round/level, and it comes online at Level 11, but that's better than never getting it).
I think it's clearly better than most comparable Tier 5 classes and I think it slots nicely into the low-middle of Tier 4 - it's worse than Ranger, but probably as good as or better than fighter. I'd vote it at 4.2.
Edit: Should also mention that since they get Lesser Restoration, they can cure their own sacrifice damage from using Sanctified Spells. (Unless there's a clause somewhere that sacrifice damage has to heal naturally, but I don't believe there is)
I am reaassesing marshall. I do not know if I voted in it's place but the auras make it into a potentially superior fighter and it makes a pretty nice face. HD and BaB are average, but you get simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields. Grant move action gives the party sans yourself pseudo pounce a few times a day, plus bonus on charge damage. Also they have all knowledge (i think looking at the wotc web article i do not own the miniatures handbook) and a way to pump that so they can toake knowledge devotions as well. It a worse spellless bard but I think it's better than a fighter.
I would put it at Tier 4 above fighter.
Sorcerer -> Low T1
Explaination: Choosing the right spells (Calling Creatures/polymorphing/Shapechange etc) the Sorcerer can have a vast amound of versatility without sacrificing any Power. in a scenario were Dragon Magazine is an allowed source the item "knowstone" functions for a Sorcerer as a Scroll does for a Wizard. Runestaves can also give access to multiple other spells. Finally the prestige class "Mage of the Arcane Order" can give a Sorcerer the same versatility as a Wizard. Finally some spells give a great bonus to the Sorcerer over the Wizard (Arcane Spellsurge) wile others exclusive to the Sorcerer can give amazing combos between spells (Arcane Fussion and it's Greater Version).
Because some optimisation (not to mention Dragon Magazine) is required to that end (as opposed to regular progression) i can see why it's considered T2. i don't want to oppen an old can of worms by this post either. Just wanted to share my oppinion that a well built Sorcerer deserves Tier 1.
Transformation domain cleric is pretty specific and even somewhat obscure. What percentage of spontaneous clerics are going to choose it? Of that percentage, how many also take DMM: Persist and don't have better spells to use with it? Because every spontaneous druid starts with wild shape as a baseline. If we assume power level is ranked based on a weighted average of what we expect lots of different builds to look like—and it is—I'd bet that the Transformation domain's impact on its respective class is much lower than wild shape's. Plus, druid also gets the animal companion, which is another powerhouse class feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrowhale
"Low T1" isn't a numerical value. 1.5? 1.4? I can put you down as a 1, but if you want "low" then I need a decimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmotherion
I must also remind you that prestige classes have no bearing on these rankings, so MotAO is irrelevant; proceed accordingly.
Yes, but there are also people who wouldn't play fighter because it's obviously weaker and more limited in its scope of abilities than many other classes whether the tier system existed or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordante
The tier system was created to give DMs a rough idea of how well PCs of different classes could accomplish tasks (particularly relative to each other). T1 can handle pretty much any theoretical task and at high levels of optimization can do many of them with ease. Meanwhile, a T4 or 5 is likely to run into trouble outside a specific niche and sometimes even inside its own. Tiering can also serve as means to alert your players, if they're familiar with the tier system, how well they should optimize. If you say you're going to run a T1 game, for instance, they know they either need to break out High Op tricks for T2 and T3 classes or play a T1 class competently. OTOH, if you say you're going for a T4 balance point, they know that if they want to play a higher tier class they might have to make some choices that would normally be considered a little to very suboptimal.
Conventional wisdom seems to be you can play mostly fine within two tiers of whatever the stated balance point is. You can certainly play a class down more than that, but you really can't play up past a certain point.
Copy and pasted from the unofficial discord server upon request.
My opinion about the tierlist stuff
Ardent- It's odd to see the write-up not mention the ACF's found in Mind's eye. Probably not enough to boost it a tier, but it a source of a major powershift for the class, even if you get rid of the whole, "Just add powers to your mantle" one.
Factotum- The only reason the Factotum is even arguably tier 3 is because of Arcane Dilettante. Brains over Brawns is probably the golden class feature of the class seeing as it is a bonus to a hard to get set of skills. If you'd remove Arcane Dilettante from the class, you'd end up with a worst rogue. And Arcane Dilettante doesn't scale particularly well. Factotum is dip for some builds or a class to enter Chameleon with.
Psychic warrior- Yeah. Very poor job selling it. I think it is actually better than the martial adepts at higher levels, but Martial adepts simply have an amazing floor to stand on so I can see them beating the psychic warrior out.
Incarnate- I feel is is Tier 3. On the lower end for sure, but fixing the chassis isn't that hard if you know what your doing. Slightly hard to rate though by itself seeing as unless you are starting at high levels, most Incarnates are going to have a dip or two to round themselves out better at mid levels.
Adept- This is one of the classes where I think just straight level 20 build rating falls apart, because I don't think anybody who is going to play this class is going to play it without being a hexer, because otherwise, why would you play it? I understand that if you add in prestige classes to the mix and semblance of rating would fall apart, but you can't talk about this class in PC play without actually doing so.
Marshal- Tier 4. People seem to have a serious misunderstanding of this class. People often compare it to the bard (which is fair in a certain regard), but Inspire courage isn't really what the Marshal does. The Marshal can boost damage and accuracy a bit, but that isn't the only thing a marshal does. Marshals are much more notable for boosting skills & ability checks.
(Although in the right party master of tactics does let you rack up some serious bonus damage). Nearly every party would actually love to have the marshal, and the class isn't really ability score dependent (It just requires you to have a 16 Cha, albeit more is better). The Marshal has the unfortunate position of being functional but boring.
Expert- Tier 6. I love skills, but they don't make a good class. It had a place as a dip for skills in early 3.5 and maybe some strange Core + 1 book builds in modern days, but skills don't make a class not tier 6.
Also, who doesn't like ranking things?Quote:
Originally Posted by Luccan
That's true. The free metapsionics are super busted once you hit that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordCharlemagne
I don't think factotum is a particularly good or even logical entry for chameleon. I mean, you only need the one class skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordCharlemagne
Urban Druid --> T1
While the loss of spontaneous summoning sucks, I don't think its enough to push the Urban druid out of T1, especially if the spell list is a bit more versatile.
I'd love to see curves of the vote spread for each class. I imagine some are much sharper spikes than others...
I don't think I have voted for Incarnate and would like to cast my vote for T3.5. If, per chance, I did already vote for that class with a different score, I would like to change it to 3.5.
Going through your guide, you call out:Quote:
Originally Posted by eggynack
L8: Nilshai: Extra standard action/round --- excellent combat form for dispensing spells.
L8: Dharculus: Ethereal plane based --- excellent stealth.
L9: Will'O Wisp: Immunity to Magic, Natural Invisibility --- excellent immunities.
Polymorph grants Thoon Elder Brain Dual actions, 12-headed hydra attacks, Wartroll's dazing blow, or the plant type's basket of immunities. Polymorph Any Object broadens the set of forms substantially at level 15.
And, when Shapechange hits it obsoletes everything else.
Overall, I'd give an edge to Enhanced Aberration Wildshape although it's fairly close.
To the extent that Eggynack's guide has made Druid's more powerful by making many obscure things well known, that seems reasonable. I haven't seen a similar treatment for clerics yet. When/if someone does that, maybe usage patterns shift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troacctid
The transformation domain however is notably only an example. There's also things like Initiate of Mystra, demonic domain, spell domain, mother cyst, travel devotion, and more general persistomancy which are also generally on the table, with several of these combinable.
Wild shape and animal companion are hardly obscure. They're core class features that pack a ton of power on their own, even without any real optimization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrowhale
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All of these votes have been tallied and added to the spreadsheet. Marshal is inching closer to the line, but nothing has shifted as of yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmotherion
I'm curious if we can get a little more discussion about urban druid. The more I look at it, the more I think it's a solid T1. I think if nothing else, it's at least clearly better than the wu jen.
Adept is interesting. I think it ranks over Magewright for 1. Having actual support 2. Getting access to its full list 3. Even if it didn't, its spell list is generally more relevant. It's probably ranked too highly relative to other T4 classes, but part of the problem is how low ranked Paladins, Rangers, and even Fighters are. Fighters are less that half a tier from Monk. That said, the only T5 class I think actually has a chance of surpassing it "easily" is a Truenamer that can actually get consistent access to its abilities. I'd rate Adept 4.5 if I haven't already. I think it sits right at the border of T4.
I think the same holds true for the Expert. Is the Expert good? No. Does it hang around the same area as the CW Samurai thanks to its custom skill list? I think so. I'm actually comfortable with it sitting about where it is now.
This looks like a good project. Everything is about where I'd expect it.
I think this shows that tiers are still a useful description of classes. Even though there aren't prescriptive traits in the tier descriptions anymore, the classes in a tier still have generally have traits in common.
I have a few votes to submit, but I want to read the discussions before I make them official.
EDIT: Okay, I've read the discussions, and all of my votes have changed by a little.
Adept: T4.75. Adepts are severely anemic with spell slots. They get a good list, but the list is too small to really be powerful, and on top of that they're prepared casters. By the time they get good spells and enough slots to use them reliably, the spells are no longer worthwhile. That being said, they are better than most T5, with its samurais and monks and truenamers. So I'm voting on the high end of tier 5.
Expert: T6. Expert is the only really sucky class that does skills well. This makes it hard to compare, but there is no niche protection in the tier system. Expert is worse than CW Samurai, between chassis and actually having some class features (I can count a whole 3 real class features on the Samurai, plus a few bonus feats). It's comparable to Aristocrat, which I rank as a definite T6. Compared to Aristocrat, Expert gains 2 skill points and a class skill or two in exchange for martial weapon proficiencies and a HD size. It's probably better than Aristocrat, but it's close.
I really like incarnum as a system, and I want Incarnate to be good, but whenever I look at it it seems to lack something to be actually good at. That being said, I lack the practical build experience to differentiate between T4 and T3. I did build a Necropolitan Incarnate/Necrocarnate as an NPC once, but it was more a puzzle excounter than anything.
Eggynack is pointing at Aberration Wildshape (LoM), Enhance Wild Shape (SC), Nilshai (UE), and Dharculus (PH) which are perhaps comparable to Transformation Domain (RoE) and DMM(CD) [Persist(CA)] in obscurity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troacctid
Just sticking with core, on the Cleric vs. Druid question, I'm not sure. Perhaps I need to play through with a druid (which I haven't).
If your making touch attacks aren't you being severly hampered by energy resistance and immunities in addition to dealing anemic damage from level 4 on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Troacctid
Generally either you're going to pick one of melee, ranged, minions, or fifth-wheel support and be good at that one thing, or you're going to pick two of them and be slightly less good at both; and you can respec on a day-to-day basis as the situation demands.Quote:
Originally Posted by HisHighestMinio
Meh, Lightning Gauntlets and Dissolving Spittle use two of the least resisted energy types, so it's not nearly as glaring a weakness as, say, sneak attack being useless every third encounter. And you can also have minions with your necrocarnum zombie and/or soulspark familiar, neither of which cares about your BAB at all. Or, if you're going the UMD route, you might have wands to fall back on when your primary attack is ineffective. Or heck, maybe you're using weapons after all and you still don't care about BAB because you can just use one or more of your soulmelds to boost your attack and make up for it—with Incarnate Weapon, for example, you only have +1 BAB at 3rd level, but you're swinging a +3 weapon where the martial character is lucky to have a masterwork one, and you still have two other soulmelds and a crown bind. I call that a net win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans
The problem with incarnate, 3.75 for my vote by the way, is that you lose the versatility you had in the beginning at higher levels. Its great from levels 1-6, but after that you start getting more and more wealth and its hard to stay flexible with that wealth. The more Soulmelds you have the harder it is to change which melds you have shaped without affecting your primary thing. The more you work with the party the more they expect you to have a certain role.
This is way worse when you try to use the avatars, besides good, as they almost require a certain weapon enhancement at later levels. Now if you read a guide and took a level of any skill user, or tomb of battle, or totemist first it is a system that multiclasses superbly well.
I'm torn on the monk... I see the tier 5 as outside the internet monks, but mostly play online where monk doesn't get played with restricted books. So most of the monks I see are invisible fist with the level 7 stealth ability baked in, they tend towards 3 or not being played at all.
Looking at the list as it currently stands... It's almost weird, really, how if you don't have spell (powers, maneuvers) of some sort, you are at best T4. I think the Binder and Totemist are the only exceptions?
Binder and Totemist still have scaling abilities, even if they aren't directly called spells, powers or maneuvers.Quote:
Originally Posted by weckar
I don't think I would join a game where the DM expects the characters to be optimized or of a certain tier. By far most people I play with never go online to read up on the game. Nor do they own any books. A GM should adjust the game in such a way everyone has fun. Regardless who has the strongest character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luccan