Let's Build: One (1) Kick-Ass* Setting

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Originally Posted by Icedaemon

Options that I've come up with:

• Spells are literally powered by a person's soul, meaning that using magic slowly erodes one's willpower and/or personality.
• Spells are powered by souls, but not always the caster's. This is the explanation I prefer since it gives a reason for demons to literally need to feed on souls to power their magical abilities and retain their immortality.
• Spells cause something similar to D&D Taint.
• Spells have a noteworthy failure chance - willpower increases the maximal power of a spell that one cast, while intelligence decreases the failure chance. However, even genius-grade minds can often fail a spell.

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Another option: Use of magic could be intensely personal. The rules are slightly different for each individual, and thus each individual magic user must experiment and discover many of the basics on her own. Thus, technology has the "standing on the shoulders of giants" effect, and magic doesn't.

Admiral Squish's answer would also work: Magic is pervasive but low-key. Human wizards can't make fireballs. At least not in battlefield conditions.

Yet a third option: Magic is a broad term and magical creatures have magical effects that humans can't produce. But to humans, spells are technology. That fireball spell? It had the same cumulative development as the rocket launcher. In fact the first wizard to try making one just blew himself up. And even today, when fireballs are reproducible, easy-to-targeting, and reliable, the rocket launchers have longer range, bigger blasts, and require less training to use.

In reply to Vva70:

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

If we go with the modern setting, I like the idea of relatively ubiquitous but low-level magic. Everyone knows magic exists, everyone's experienced it in the minor things. But while magic has remained relatively static in power since it's first discovery, technology has advanced exponentially. The end result is that tech is generally more powerful than magic, but magic is a useful, everyday thing. Magic can be used in technology synergystically, however. Say, bullets that summon monsters inside your targets. Energy weapons made possibly by magic.

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The original one you mean?

I suppose it could actually... Magic and proper technology working well in tandem is certainly an idea that is not used all that often. If human spell casters are never quite capable of incredible magical feats, then technological advantages become important. Mind you, I fail to see how teleportation of any kind would equate low-power, but that's a nitpick based on personal taste.

I would still say that even with the lowest amount of magic, technology would be less developed in most fields where magical solutions are readily available. That said, I don't feel that to be a problem. A world where the more dangerous foe is the bastard who has acquired nuclear launch codes or the hacker who has just liquidated the PCs personal funds is not as adventure-friendly as one where submachineguns are the closely guarded secret of a handful of industrial powerhouses and tanks are considered only a rumour spread by some nation which wants its enemy to be more feared by neutral parties. A world where morality is grey 90% of the time and most issues are serious and complex, but where technology and the heroes themselves are more pulp-based might be interesting.

Voting for this round:
oh yay! bbcode can do superscript
I⁴

One vote for Tide of Twilight

Interreality Immigrant Integration Institute.

I'll vote for both Interreality Immigrant Integration Institute and Tide of Twilight. Magic is a moving, sentient (to a degree) being, and exists in both this world and another as the same mass. Where the magic concentrates, the boundaries of the world can fade into a Twilight, where either side can cross. These boundaries might require different amounts of energy to form at different places, which change over time as concentrations of magic shift. For example, in the depths of the Meridian (Otherworld; the "day"), in zones of low magic, live twisted beings that were created by a surge of magic a long time ago. Ages fighting one another and evolving have turned them into unstoppable murderous machines; however, they don't usually find or cross the Twilight into the Night (This world). Such a creature would wreak havoc before it could be reigned in.

Though, that would be a worst-case emergency. Normal emergencies would be closer to a being escaping through the Twilight into the night, be it just illegal immigration, or an escape from a Meridian jail, for the worst criminals.

I think that this would probably be cool, as it gives players and the GM something to work with; for example, maps of magic hotspots; there are permanent ones near Meridian hotspots of magical activity, such as large, permanent settlements, but there is also drift, causing patches of Twilight to appear almost randomly. However, it's just an almost; it can be predicted and charted with the right technology. It gives for interesting plot hooks; investigating new magical hotspots that popped up overnight in a previously quiet area, or how someone managed to cross the boundaries between worlds in a seemingly magic-dead space.

Just a thought, is all.

Hmmm... well let's see...

I'm very much against magic being a strange, alien thing. I love the idea of it being a natural part of the world. even if it is a shadowy, mysterious part of it. Heck, I'm perfectly okay with it being a key to something greater than humanity, be it the stuff of the universe or whatever as long as it's a natural thing. I don't know if that made any sense... let me think of a a metaphor: magic shouldn't come from Cthulu, it should come from itself.

I think I've even confused myself as to what I was originally trying to say. Anyway, the gibberish I spouted above can boil down to Option 4 don't work for me.

Options 1 and 2 are a little meh for me as well as I do like the idea that if you look hard and long enough you just might find that millenia year old dragon who really is a great, supernatural thing and not some old foggy who done the magic gene fandango.

This leaves me with Options 3 and 5.

3 is pretty straightforward. Very balanced and traditional if a little standard. Nothing amazing here, but it seems all good. No complaints.

Then we have Option 5. Here I can see the potential for what I, in my subjective little opinion, see as both the best and worst options. On the one hand we have what sounds like some awesome two-worlds-linked-across-dimensions-but-not-in-a-sci-fi-way thing going on where we have regular earth and a Dragon Age-esque fade (for lack of a better, more eloquent description) or world of dream of spirituality that is as naturally a part of our world as dirt. This sounds like it could be pretty awesome sauce.

On the other hand, however, it could turn out to be ZOMG aliens! I'd really rather not have aliens... at least not the super high tech/magic kind that are all lolz we made your race as an experiment cause we were bored. That would make me very sad. An alien race that could be seen as humanity's brothers rather than parents I could work with.

So, basically, I suppose this boils down to me having to ask: How spiritual and mystical, as opposed to scientific, is Option 5?

If any of that made any sense... I think I need some caffeine.

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Originally Posted by Drakefall

So, basically, I suppose this boils down to me having to ask: How spiritual and mystical, as opposed to scientific, is Option 5?

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Well, the subgenre we are working on is modern fantasy.

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Originally Posted by The Rose Dragon

Well, the subgenre we are working on is modern fantasy.

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Yes, and I approve of that heartily. I was just wondering whether Option 5 was leaning more in the "I've learned to manifest the spiritual essence of the universe and have had my eyes opened to a realm I never knew existed" direction or the "aliens gave us cool mind powers when they created our race but we don't know this weeooweeoo" direction, to put it bluntly.

I'm tossing in a vote for Humans are the Real Monsters, though the first option is very tempting.

In reply to Drakefall

Oh please, psionics is just what people who desperately want magic in their science fiction but aren't capable of writing a convincingly sufficiently advanced alien/are too craven to just say 'yeah, we've got magic too' name their magic-with-the-tags-filed-off.

So, I suppose Terra Arcana wins this round. As such, we are going to have magic and supernatural monsters be there since the beginning of time. I will come back to supernatural monsters in more detail later, but for now, we are going to vote on the kind or kinds of magic that exist.

Unfortunately, I am not quite sure how to create a poll for this round, considering the sheer number of possibilities (such as necromancy, celestial magic, infernal magic, psychic powers, primal magic, spirit magic, the power of qi, blood magic, etc.). As such, I welcome any suggestions as to how we should conduct this round of voting.

I say all of it exists! Here's my idea:

Magic comes as one great, equal source, but as it filters throughout the world, it reacts differently to certain individuals, like a mutant gene. Certain races or distinct family lines may possess a special magic-type (shapeshifting, divination, necromancy, life or blood magic or what have you) that none of the other families/races do, unless a half-breed bears the exclusive magical genealogy from one parent family/race to another and offspring occurs thereafter. This is not the end-all rule; rare mutations exist where new magic or combinations of different magic surfaces.

Not everyone's apptitude for magic is inherently equal; there are geniuses and there are regular folk who can manipulate magical energy to varying degrees.

Similar in idea to Marvel's mutant universe and Avatar: the last Airbender.

Perhaps you could approach the voting as how the magic is used, rather than what it actually is? Some possible categories:

Magic as Ritual: Magic (at least as humans perform it) requires complicated rituals involving spell circles, proper geographic and celestial positioning, and rare components. The effect of a ritual can be powerful and/or long-lasting, but it's not something you can do without a lot of preparation. Anyone with the knowledge can do it, however.

Magic as Spell: One of the most familiar means of magic in RPGs, this is Magic as Ritual on steroids. Most (or all) of known human magic can be boiled down to a set of spells that a mage can learn and cast as the situation demands. These spells require some temporary resource to cast, but can be used readily as the situation demands it. Using spells may only take training, or it may take some preexisting connection to the supernatural (like a supernatural bloodline or some such).

Magic as Will: Magic has no set form, and instead takes form from the mage who uses it. It is highly personal, and its rules are slightly different for each mage. One mage may have powers like Gandalf, another like Harry Potter, and a third like a Green Lantern. The one common factor is that it takes an extraordinary force of will to maintain magical effects, and they usually don't last long after the mind generating them has quit.

Spirit-Binding Magic: Humans have no actual ability to use magic. It is entirely wrapped up in supernatural creatures. However, some supernatural creatures of no/limited intelligence can prove very useful. In particular, they can be bound into items, imbuing those items with magical effects.

Magic is not for Humans: Humans don't have magic. Period. If you're human, and you want to take advantage of something magical, hire out a supernatural creature capable of doing it. Or get yourself turned into a supernatural creature. But you can't do it by yourself.

How about voting on what magic is? It might help with the subsequent stages. Is it the manifestation of willpower? It it just an underlying force that is tapped for power? Is it a sentient entity, that moves and shifts, creating hotspots, dead zones, and what have you? Is it power drawn from a parallel world (which has always been)?

A version of the ecology (thaumology?) of magic:

Much like Earth has a magnetic field, ozone layer and gravity, this world has those and Aether - a magical field. Aether is not wholly uniform and might have holes just like the ozone layer - spots where magic is weak, or non-esistent. Some creatures, such as the will-o-wisp, all undead ect require the magical field to survive. Aether interacts slightly with the magnetic field, which explains why magnetic iron items are painful to some highly-magical creatures.

Silver is anathema to aether - silver literally creates a very small field of anti-magic around it, pushing Aether away from itself. Thus, a werewolf with a silver bullet lodged in his or her thigh cannot regenerate or transform back (since the transformation and supernaturally fast healing would be, well, supernatural). Because of this, silver is highly prized - almost equal in value to platinium and other such rare metals.

Spellcasting literally turns some aetheric energy into some other form of energy and while the aether regenerates slowly due to solar radiation/forms of energy transforming into aetheric energy/some effects connected to quantum physics, excessive use of magic in one area can drain the local layer of aether. Thus, powerful wizards tend to be slightly nomadic. There has never been an overflow of aether, since regions where aether is incredibly dense transform normal creatures into magical ones/creates spontaneous magical effects or wild spells/are inhabited by highly magical creatures, which binds a large portion of the potential overflow. However, it could be that large numbers of sapient beings combined with reasonably common institutes of magical learning has led to the Aether, like all resources, being drained faster than it is replenished.

Of Vva's (I pronouce it 'Viva', is that correct?) options, I would pick Ritual Magic and Spirit-Binding magic. If possible, I would place a vote against Magic as Will.

I would also add 'magic of symbolism' to the options listed.

Ritual magic because Aether should not be all that easy to shape - it has a certain amount of inertia and tends to need drawn-out procedures to shape and convert into something useful.

Spirit binding magic because I like the idea of magical creatures harnessed for Pseudo-Science!

Not Magic as will because magic should have far more rules governing it than 'willpower determines how powerful one is'.

Magic of Symbolism could be interesting in creating a dynamic based on similarity - shaping the ritually created/marked effigy of a thing shapes the thing itself. Deep understanding of a foe's nature, name and other aspects of the foe allows for stronger control over magic in regard to that foe. Influential people thus hide certain aspects of themselves as not to be affected by mind-control rituals cast by some secret cult several buildings away.

Alternatively, I once tried to create a magic system for a realistic world myself. I haven't a better name for it than Applied Thaumology. It was based on the concept that spell schools are not differentiated by what the purpose of the spell is (as D&D has abjuration for protective spells and evocation for blasting spells, which never made proper sense to me) but by what force the spells affect - electric energy(Leviturgy), chemical balance(alchemy), heat(Siccurgy), light/radiation (Luxurgy or Radiourgy), kinetic energy(Moturgy) and so on are all in different spell spheres and require sufficiently different methods that a wizard who can change magical energy into one type would need almost as excessive studies as a layman to learn an another type. I think I've mentioned this before in this thread, actually.

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Originally Posted by DMofDarkness

How about voting on what magic is? It might help with the subsequent stages. Is it the manifestation of willpower? It it just an underlying force that is tapped for power? Is it a sentient entity, that moves and shifts, creating hotspots, dead zones, and what have you? Is it power drawn from a parallel world (which has always been)?

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To create a list:
Manifest Will
Universal Aether - constant magical field throughout the cosmos.
Stellar Aether - constant magical field, affected by gravity and thus surrounding planetary bodies, but thin/non-existent outside.
Uneven Aether - A non-constant magical field, as I suggested above.
Sapient Field of Energy - A non-constant magical field with a mind of its own. Essentially a god/mass of spirits.
Otherdimensional energy - magic is drawn from a separate plane of existence.
Souls equal Magic - souls are magic. Casting spells spends portions of one's soul, or souls of the creatures that one has bound to one's casting implements. This offers a nice opportunity for arguments in-character. In the world I was going for with the realistic-ish system described above, this was to be the norm.
Life-force equals Magic - similar to above, but with larger creatures as better sources of magical energy and different methods of binding magic.

The souls = magic and life = magic can be combined with any of the other types, which do seem to be mutually exclusive otherwise.

I like Uneven Aether, personally.

I propose we vote on both the source and nature of magic (see list at the end of my previous post, plus whatever anyone can think of that insofar was not considered) as well as how magic can be applied (see Vva's post and my additions, plus again anything interesting that we missed)

If multiple non-contradictory votes are cast, a mixture of several would be interesting.

As already stated, in this case my votes are for Ritual Magic, Spirit-Binding magic and Applied Thaumology (which are non-contradictory with one another) in terms of the application of magic and Uneven Aether in terms of the basic nature of magic.

Honestly, I don't care too much about what kind or its source (although spirits gets a neg vote from me), as long as it's USED. Most of the time, only mages use the stuff, and then a few people get runes and whatnot. But, really, with that many wizards, normal people could get a few spells in important places, couldn't they?

The world should use magic like it was tech. Period.

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Originally Posted by Icedaemon

I propose we vote on both the source and nature of magic

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I agree that source and nature should be independent and voted on separately. We don't need to vote on what each list should be; TRD should be able to scare up a list for each of those.

I personally don't like the list of options given for how the magic can be used; a setting gets more flexibility if you can use different types of magic. All types included. You have your cultists and their ritual sacrifices, your artificers and their invoking spirits into potions, spell-slinger wizards, willpower-using awesome characters, Dresden Files style, and what have you. I don't see the need to limit it. At all.

Well I'm a big proponent of magic being somehow spiritual in nature. Those with enough faith or belief, or those with a strong spiritual connection to... some... thing are those that most strongly manifest magical abilities.

I would quite like it if magic could not entirely be defined by scientific means, even in modern times. It should always contain an element of mystery.

Sam Burke:

Perhaps we or Rose Dragon should consider splitting Vva's suggested 'spirit binding' up into 'spirit binding' and 'creature harnessing'. I am definitely in favour of magical creatures subverted and used by people, but spirits and souls are mostly useful for modern settings if you want the morally murky "Wait, we are using people's souls as ammo/power sources?" bit. Thoughts?

Thinker:

Agreed, he is the adjudicator. We advise and vote.

DM O'Darkness:

The principal reason why there has to be some sort of a limit is the one I have been whiningprattlingarguing about - if magic has unlimited different applications with few drawbacks, there would be no real need to develop technologically. I like settings that have been de- and reconstructed, where pieces fit together and make perfect sense the most, so in my mind the development of both scientific and magical research has to be justified.

Ultimately, describing magic can be boiled down into three questions. What can it accomplish? How do you go about using it? And why does it work? Two of these (what and how) must be determined, and the third should be given at least some thought. But all three can impact one another, and you have to start somewhere. The reason I suggested starting with "how" is because it seemed easier to condense down into a small number of broad categories than the other two.

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Originally Posted by Drakefall

I would quite like it if magic could not entirely be defined by scientific means, even in modern times. It should always contain an element of mystery.

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I understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure how to actually apply it. If people can interact with magic, if the results can be observed, and if the effects are at all repeatable, then it can be scientifically analyzed. Getting rid of any of those qualifiers hampers the ability to use magic in the RPG sense.

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Originally Posted by Vva70

I understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure how to actually apply it. If people can interact with magic, if the results can be observed, and if the effects are at all repeatable, then it can be scientifically analyzed. Getting rid of any of those qualifiers hampers the ability to use magic in the RPG sense.

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I actually agree with you to an extent there. Notice my clever use (No, it wasn't:smalltongue:) use of the word "entirely".

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Originally Posted by Drakefall

I would quite like it if magic could not entirely be defined by scientific means, even in modern times. It should always contain an element of mystery.

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Science should be able to analyse magic and find patterns and methods of using and controlling in a modern setting, most definitely. However, what I propose is that the why of magic be essentially unknown to science. Oh there is an answer to it, but it's one of those things players would have to work their butts off to know, and that science is unable to provide.

Ed to the it: I actually really like your whole magic-is-intensely-personal thing. That 's vrey similar to what I was going for with my spirituality bit.

Well Tech wouldn't rely on the waning and waxing Aether, it would be consistent between places and is not prone to "Quick the enemy is coming, use up all the Aether so they can't use it to fight us" tactics

I vote for:

Uneven Aether - It fills and drains, dumping Aether is a valid tactic

Life Makes Aether - Aether is produced as a byproduct of Life. This way cities can have massive Aether input/outputs without flooding Rural areas with similar levels

Aether occurs naturally - Natural Aether is produced all around the world, varying in output due to not-understood patterns of solar, lunar and magical tides. This is on top of the Life makes Aether, overlapping. Dead Spots and Wild Zones are caused by the tides and patterns in this way.

Magic is done using Focuses - To cast a Necromancy spell you need a Necromantic Focus, to Divine the Future you better have a Crystal Ball hidden somewhere.

Magic is done using Rituals - The BIG spells that use a lot of Aether


Basically shunning magic in a city without setting up a Crystal Drainer is BAD, as is relying too heavily on it in areas of low-population density as it becomes erratic.

Some quick stats on Aether:
AU (Aether Units) is used in the casting of every spell. It drains from Aether Blocks, a 10Mile square cube. Background (days without spells being cast) Aether varies between 100AU (low-density, low tide) to 100,000 (metropolis during a High Tide).

A 'Fireball' Spell uses 2AU while a 'Raise Undead Army' Ritual might drain 150AU

Crystal Drainers: Prevents the build-up of Aether in magic-shunning societies by draining it as it is produced. Prevents Aether accumulating, up to 1,000AU a cycle for the better ones.

Production: AU is produced every 10 minutes (or 1 cycle), the total gained is adding the Tide with Density.
Tides: Dead Zone: 0AU a cycle
Dry Zone: 1AU a cycle
Low Tide: 10AU a cycle
Swelling Tide: 100AU a cycle
High Tide: 500AU a cycle
AetherBoom: 1,000AU a cycle
Population Density: 1-100 people: 1AU a cycle
101-1,000 people: 10AU a cycle
1,001-1million people: 100AU a cycle
1million+: 100AU +100 for every million

Aether Overload: When Aether concentration reaches massive levels it begins leaking, causing random magical effects and boosting the power of the people who can Channel and Focus this raw energy.
Anything using Aether is automatically Maximized and counts as 1/2 what it normally would be for /day limits.

If going the Uneven Aether replenished by-presence-of-life route, the amount of magical energy living creatures generate should be a lot lower than that which is derived from the natural fluctuations of Aether - the system suggested would work only if humans produced magical energy. In a world where there are many different magical or potentially magical beings, especially if the borders between sapient and not are blurry, arbitrarily determining what sort of creatures do increase Aether and which do not will be very difficult. Rain forests have an incredible density of life forms, after all and would either need to have incredible percentages of strongly magical creatures or would be destroyed by wild magic.

That's why I added Crystal Drainers. If they are naturally occurring in high-Aether spots they can stop lots of the Wild Magic zones opening

OK, basically, all of this can be reduced to four options.

Magic External to Beings: This one is difficult, because non-human supernatural beings are magic, and we established that they exist independent of anything else.

Magic Internal to Beings: This one is more functional considering previous options. However, from what I can tell, it's not as popular.

Magic is a Hybrid: This is where magic is both external and internal, and both are needed to accomplish anything. I'm not sure how to fluff this one up, however.

Magic is a Mixture: This is where magic is both external and internal, but at least two of the above are viable approaches to magic.

Note that I'm not asking you to vote yet, I'm just asking if this distinction makes sense to you.

I think the distinctions make sense. However the "at least" in Mixture's description doesn't really make sense as it doesn't really seem compatible with Magic as a Hybrid.