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Re: The artificer returns
While I was excited about February's UA, showing us the new Artificer, the subclasses really didn't excite me at all.
These two new subclasses greatly excite me. I know I have a bit of a rep as an optimizer, but the new Swordma- Sorry, Battle Smith, doesn't even do that much for me, either. Its cool, its unique and certainly strong.
But I'm loving the Archivist. The idea of having a floating book next to me shooting psychic damage at people as I shout, "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!" is amazing to me.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OvisCaedo
(and a slight correction to the previous poster, repulsion shield seems to require 8th level, don't think you'll be getting that one at level 4. Not a big deal though. Possibly even for the best, since you might really want to have a permanently magic weapon instead of complete reliance on arcane weapon uptime for your attack stat)
Good catch. Yeah, no way to have magic plate and a magic shield at level 4(can't use same infusion on 2 items). You'll get to upgrade to a +1 Repulsion shield at level 8 and +2 plate at level 12. Your AC will keep scaling for a while with little cost which is great.
Thinking more on builds. Perhaps Abjurer 2/Battle Smith X would be a good combo for a mounted gish? Access to more cantrips(Artificer really needs this), more spell slots, rituals and shield spell, 6-7 HP Ward.
Possible Combos:
- Warding Bond on Iron Guardian - Damage to either of you gets taken off your ward and it gets a boost to AC and saves. Recharges Ward.
- Sanctuary on Iron Guardian while it repairs itself - Encourages foes not to attack it. Recharges ward, Bonus action use conflict. Not ideal.
- Aid on yourself and Iron Guardian - Increases HP for both of you and recharges ward
Other ideas:
I don't think you really need intelligence necessarily as a ranged Battle Smith. You have VERY limited prepared known till level 12 though. Still your list of choices can pretty limited anyway - Arcane Weapon, Absorb Elements, Aid, Blur, Haste gives you enough to work with your limited slots till then. Rest of your spells will likely go to rebuilding your mount as needed.
Metal Dragon Musketeer
Battle Smith X
Kobold - Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 8
ASI - Sharpshooter @ Level 4, +1Wis/Con Level 8,
Iron Guardian - Robotic Ambush Drake
Infusions:
+1 Repeating Musket (If DM approves firearm use for Artificer)
+1 Half Plate (AC 18)
+2 Half Plate and Headband of Intellect @ Level 12
Maybe Goggles of Daylight(Ask your DM to reskin Goggles of Night to remove sunlight sensitivity for Kobold)
Kobold Pack Tactics will let you make good use of sharpshooter even with a below average attack bonus. Your main attack with be:
2x - 1d12+1(+1 Musket) + 1d6(Arcane Weapon) +3(Dex) + 10(Sharpshooter) = Avg 24 damage a shot
If an enemy gets in your face you can still fire your musket - Pack Tactics with mount cancels disadvantage from ranged weapon in melee. Use your bonus action to command your mount to take the disengage action and move 40' away. You'll be a very mobile ranged attacker. Difficult to pin down until they kill your mount which has something like 75% of your own HP and possibly decent AC if you make it some magic barding.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jaappleton
While I was excited about February's UA, showing us the new Artificer, the subclasses really didn't excite me at all.
These two new subclasses greatly excite me. I know I have a bit of a rep as an optimizer, but the new Swordma- Sorry, Battle Smith, doesn't even do that much for me, either. Its cool, its unique and certainly strong.
But I'm loving the Archivist. The idea of having a floating book next to me shooting psychic damage at people as I shout, "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!" is amazing to me.
My take on the Archivist so far:
- Scribe Scrolls cheaply. Due to the crazy wealth at higher levels this can lead to some interesting possibilities: 4x 1st level spells per day - 12.5gp per scroll. Great spells to be able to spam cheaply: False Life, Fairie Fire, Sanctuary, Cure Wounds, Longstrider, Arcane Weapon, Dissonant Whispers, Expeditious Retreat. Dip Cleric for even more spell choices like Healing Word, Shield of Faith, Protection from Good and Evil or Bless
- Many-Handed Pouch + Mind Network(Level 6) - Everyone has access to your scroll stash and can telepathically communicate with you. As an action, you can teleport to one of these pouches at level 14. Remember there is no range on this so you can teleport up to 100 miles away! Possibly teleport anywhere you leave 1 pouch. Wording on Many Handed Pouch seems to imply the pouch remains an infused item beyond 100 miles. It just can't hold anything. Leave a pouch in your base and teleport to it as an action with things get bad. Step on a bunch of prepped spell glyphs(Healing, Greater Restoration, Buffs, etc). Action(and 2nd level spell) to teleport back to your allies who hold the other pouches.
- Int Save targetting Cantrip with scaling 1d8 damage, potent cantrip for it @ level 6 AND gives advantage to the next attack on the foe AND you can smite! Very strong! Some bonus action tax to move the artificial mind around but that's OK. You don't have that many things to do with your bonus action.
- Pseudo darkvision - Requires your concentration but you can see through your artificial mind and it has 60' darkvision.
- Perception/Insight Proficiency - Useful, could see a very strong Knowledge Cleric 1/Archivist X skill/tool monkey.
- Mind Overload - I've always wanted to build a Paladin/Monk - Guess I can now? SAD + Ranged Smiting and Stunning Fist. Crazy... Actually makes pure Artificer very appealing. A very strong subclass capstone without the teleport ability.
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Re: The artificer returns
Alright so a Battlesmith can wreck face equally with a Greatsword and Longbow using the power of his intellect.
I'm flipping in.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GlenSmash!
Alright so a Battlesmith can wreck face equally with a Greatsword and Longbow using the power of his intellect.
I'm flipping in.
Has to be a magic weapon but yes. No different than a hexblade using the strength of his personality to attack with a greatsword or longbow. You have to wait till 3rd level compared to 1st for the Hexblade. So, nothing broken with it IMO. The funny thing is at level 12, the artificer can give himself 19 in his primary stat.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wildarm
Has to be a magic weapon but yes. No different than a hexblade using the strength of his personality to attack with a greatsword or longbow. You have to wait till 3rd level compared to 1st for the Hexblade. So, nothing broken with it IMO. The funny thing is at level 12, the artificer can give himself 19 in his primary stat.
Yup, combined with making any mundane weapon magic it's really viable.
I hate playing Charisma based characters.
I also hate playing pet classes but you can always get what you want.
Going dwarf with a level of fighter would make it truly SAD, but I'd probably stick with something with and Int bonus,14 Dex, and Medium armor.
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Re: The artificer returns
What subclass & background would you recommend for a character that grew up in a small town & went to war as an Artificer to get a chance to learn magic/artifice like he always wanted but could never afford Wizard school?
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Re: The artificer returns
OK have some builds for Archivist:
Master of the Mind
Vedlaken(Or Gnome) Knowledge Cleric 1/Archivist X
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 8
ASI: +2 Int, +2 Int, Observant, Res(Wis)
Skills - Expertise: Arcana, Nature, History(Magic Items), 5-7 Tools
Proficiency: Perception, Insight, Investigation, History, + Background (Stealth + ?)
Advantage on Int/Wis/Cha saves vs Magic
Start Archivist for Con proficiency
- You'll be a master of the mind with vast knowledge resources available.
- Stupidly high passive perception and investigation means nothing goes unnoticed.
- A strong control cantrip that targets the weakest save and you can burn spell slots to nova. Being able to stun with low level slots is also nice.
- Very decent AC that scales every 4 levels or so.
- Could go lower on Wisdom and higher on Con if you needed more toughness. Aid will also help.
- Lacking Dex save proficiency but you have access to absorb elements which is fantastic.
- Use the nature expertise to extract poisons from enemies. Keep them in your pouch for anyone to apply when needed. Potentially catapult contact poison at something.
Overall seems very solid.
Ranged Mental Smite Machine
Gnome Archivist 3/War Wizard X
- Con Saves
- +1 Half Plate, Shield and Arcane Deflection gives you an effective 22 AC at level 5
- Only lose 1 level of spell slot progression
- Still get 9th level spells
- In theory could hit for 4d8+10d8 damage though you'd never burn your 9th level slot on this.
I don't think this is particularly strong DPS wise compared to the equivalent wizard spells. You can't spam multiple smites in a turn to nova like a Padlock can. Closes comparison would be 8d8 with a 3rd level slot compared to 8d6 against multiple targets with fireball. Or 12d8(54 int save for none) with a 7th level slot vs 10d6+40(75 dex save for none) with disintegrate. And you don't waste the spell slot if you miss with the cantrip.
I'd honestly play it like a utility wizard:
- Not getting 3rd level spells till level 8 will be painful
- Lots of versatility between your cantrips, infusions, healing, rituals, skills and tools
- You can scribe scrolls cheaply for extra resources and rarely used spells
- You have a very good AC and saves
- A strong control cantrip that you can easily boost the damage. This is efficient damage as if they fail the INT save, then you burn the smite slot to pile on some damage.
- 1-3 extra spells you can prepare compared to pure wizard due to Int double dipping. Cure wounds, Expeditious Retreat and Absorb Elements would be good choices.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anderlith
What subclass & background would you recommend for a character that grew up in a small town & went to war as an Artificer to get a chance to learn magic/artifice like he always wanted but could never afford Wizard school?
Soldier Artillerist or Battle Smith. That'd directly fit what I'd expect an army would turn an Artificer into.
Artillerist as a specialist who they wanted to keep in the back lines, likely as part of some kind of engineering organization. A good choice, if you were smart.
Battle Smith is if you were a Soldier first and an Artificer second. You were "cross trained" as a front line soldier, and they happened to train you in magical engineering when you didn't die in the first couple skirmishes. A good choice, if you were stupid.
I could also see some support as an Alchemist, but I think an army would be recruiting those, not training them. If they wanted a medic, they'd just teach 10x as many Fighter/Thieves to learn the Healer feat, rather than training a mad scientist how to regenerate organs with magic.
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Re: The artificer returns
I would never play this class because it is OP garbage but I am not above making an NPC with it for a game I am running.
There is no reason to, but I could make a dual wielding "gunslinger" with hand crossbows.
Or
Just one HCB that the NPC "fans" when he uses his bonus action attack from CBE or uses extra attack.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anderlith
What subclass & background would you recommend for a character that grew up in a small town & went to war as an Artificer to get a chance to learn magic/artifice like he always wanted but could never afford Wizard school?
Folk Hero?
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anderlith
What subclass & background would you recommend for a character that grew up in a small town & went to war as an Artificer to get a chance to learn magic/artifice like he always wanted but could never afford Wizard school?
Auditor, cadet, & chronicler all look like good fits. really any background could work depending on how you want to spin it. morgraves misc has a section on eberronizing the rather faerun slanted phb backgrounds too :D
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misterwhisper
I would never play this class because it is OP garbage but I am not above making an NPC with it for a game I am running.
There is no reason to, but I could make a dual wielding "gunslinger" with hand crossbows.
Or
Just one HCB that the NPC "fans" when he uses his bonus action attack from CBE or uses extra attack.
Yeah dude. We get it. Its like the 4th post in this topic you've made that you don't like it.
Gonna add anything constructive?
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jaappleton
Yeah dude. We get it. Its like the 4th post in this topic you've made that you don't like it.
Gonna add anything constructive?
1. I have only posted 3 times at all on this thread.
2. One of those was talking about how I actually liked the infusions.
3. Maybe you should try being constructive as well instead of whining about other people's critiques of a UA.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misterwhisper
Maybe you should try being constructive as well instead of whining about other people's critiques of a UA.
Calling it garbage isn't a critique.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daphne
Calling it garbage isn't a critique.
Yes, actually, it is.
If someone puts out a product, even if that product is free, does not give them blanket immunity from negative responses about its quality.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tetrasodium
Auditor, cadet, & chronicler all look like good fits. really any background could work depending on how you want to spin it. morgraves misc has a section on eberronizing the rather faerun slanted phb backgrounds too :D
I don’t have Morgrave Misc, I don’t know what any of those do
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Re: The artificer returns
Another interesting thing about the Archivist is you can cast an artificer spell as though you were in the manifested artificial minds(MAM) space. Few ideas:
- Ranged Cure Wounds, Restoration or Revivify is nice.
- Subtle portable guidance perhaps if it hides inside something another player carries. Maybe useful for social interaction or boosting the scout moving ahead of the party.
- Flexible Thorn Whip movement. You can actually pull foes away or laterally now.
- +300' Range to spells like Heat Metal(!), Detect Thoughts, Vitriolic Sphere, Hypnotic Pattern, Otiluke’s resilient sphere, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand
Provided your MAM can move unobstructed into an area you can be VERY far away. You get to use the senses of your MAM to cast the spell and you don't lose concentration when you don't have line of sight. You can cast a concentration spell and keep it maintained. Limited to Int Mod times per day but potentially encounter breaking.
Jeez, the more I think of this, the more I see Heat Metal with a 360' range that doesn't require LOS to be pretty broken at level 5. Your tiny MAM is invulnerable and can drift on onto an enemy up to 300' away and cast heat metal on it. He glows dim light for 10' so it may raise alarms but I don't think anyone is going to run from Caerbannog, a fluffy floating spectral bunny. Caster is nicely hidden away somewhere and just burns for the full minute then resumes concentration on his MAM senses to see if he managed to melt the BBEG into a pile of slag and barbecued flesh.
I think the Archivist actually would make a really good assassin. You can change your manifested minds appearance pretty easily. So easy to have it manifest as something related to who you want to blame for an attack and have it go assassinate someone. Even at level 3 you can drift the MAM in and catapult items at people to kill them.
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Re: The artificer returns
There’s a pretty cool Gish available in battle smith
I’m not a huge fan of the fluff, but it looks like it’d be fun
Either add war wizard for saves and shadow blade (it’s a magic weapon) or go GWM with a big freaking glaive. Looks pretty cool really. Robokitty for bonus actions plus good utility
I’m aware of fears that this is OP, but I don’t see anywhere it would outperform a solid mix of warlock paladin and or sorcerer.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spiritchaser
There’s a pretty cool Gish available in battle smith
I’m not a huge fan of the fluff, but it looks like it’d be fun
Either add war wizard for saves and shadow blade (it’s a magic weapon) or go GWM with a big freaking glaive. Looks pretty cool really. Robokitty for bonus actions plus good utility
I’m aware of fears that this is OP, but I don’t see anywhere it would outperform a solid mix of warlock paladin and or sorcerer.
Everyone complaining that using Int for weapons is OP, remember this takes 3 levels of investment. THREE. That's literally 3X as much investment as it does for anyone dipping Hexblade. And there's only ONE other full class which keys off Intelligence, the Wizard, and a grand total of just four other non-Wizard subclasses in the game which key off Intelligence: Arcane Archer, EK, Arcane Trickster and Mastermind Rogue. Only two of which are spellcasters, and even then, only 1/3rd casters.
As opposed to the synergy that all the Charisma focused classes have.
And lets not forget anyone Wisdom focused can steal everyones favorite Druid cantrip and key off Wisdom for melee attacks.
Everyone complaining about Int for attacks needs to calm the hell down.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anderlith
I don’t have Morgrave Misc, I don’t know what any of those do
You aren't missing much.
Soldier sounds most fitting, IMO.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jaappleton
Everyone complaining about Int for attacks needs to calm the hell down.
Not having played this, that’s very much my first response as well.
I would add one caution that there might be a few particularly STRONG synergies, that might be a problem, perhaps with war wizard or abjurer, but on the whole I still don’t immediately see these doing things I can’t already do with CHA classes.
Different?
Sure.
Better? Meh...
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spiritchaser
Not having played this, that’s very much my first response as well.
I would add one caution that there might be a few particularly STRONG synergies, that might be a problem, perhaps with war wizard or abjurer, but on the whole I still don’t immediately see these doing things I can’t already do with CHA classes.
Different?
Sure.
Better? Meh...
Sure there will be some strong synergies. But hardly anything game-breaking.
Any before anyone says, "But a lv17 Bladesinger with three levels of Artificer can-" STOP. You're talking about a level 20 character. Here's a hint: EVERYTHING AT THAT LEVEL IS PRETTY GAME-BREAKING. You have the ****ing Wish spell at that level, that's the end of the discussion.
Really, what everyone is missing is that Cure Wounds can now key off Intelligence. Which is rad. "Oh but Wizards can already do so much-" You really gonna complain about someone else being able to heal your butt? You gonna voice those complaints when you're at 3 hit points? No. Shut up and take the healing.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jaappleton
Sure there will be some strong synergies. But hardly anything game-breaking.
Any before anyone says, "But a lv17 Bladesinger with three levels of Artificer can-" STOP. You're talking about a level 20 character. Here's a hint: EVERYTHING AT THAT LEVEL IS PRETTY GAME-BREAKING. You have the ****ing Wish spell at that level, that's the end of the discussion.
Really, what everyone is missing is that Cure Wounds can now key off Intelligence. Which is rad. "Oh but Wizards can already do so much-" You really gonna complain about someone else being able to heal your butt? You gonna voice those complaints when you're at 3 hit points? No. Shut up and take the healing.
An interesting point that I've seen in 5e is that, as long as you aren't taking the spotlight, you can basically do as much as you want.
Take a look at Clerics. They buff. They deal damage. They can hit things. They have a range of proficiencies. They're a full caster. They have their own smite effect that doesn't cost a resource. They do so much. The reason they're allowed to is because their spell lists are terrible at being selfish. Almost everything they do in terms of spells is about helping others succeed. Compare that to a Sorcerer, and you'll see the trend I'm talking about.
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Re: The artificer returns
Actually what I think is of special interest is that the artificer can make a headband of intellect
If you can handle the path to level 12 with int 16, you can boost it to 19 with no ASIs
This could lead to a LOT of feats, or Very high CON.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Man_Over_Game
An interesting point that I've seen in 5e is that, as long as you aren't taking the spotlight, you can basically do as much as you want.
Take a look at Clerics. They buff. They deal damage. They can hit things. They have a range of proficiencies. They're a full caster. They have their own smite effect that doesn't cost a resource. They do so much. The reason they're allowed to is because their spell lists are terrible at being selfish. Almost everything they do in terms of spells is about helping others succeed. Compare that to a Sorcerer, and you'll see the trend I'm talking about.
I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it but years ago (and kind of now again) there was a MMO game called city of heroes.
It subscribed to the same philosophy.
A party of buffers, all buffing each other and debuffing the enemy could be absurdly powerful.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spiritchaser
Not having played this, that’s very much my first response as well.
I would add one caution that there might be a few particularly STRONG synergies, that might be a problem, perhaps with war wizard or abjurer, but on the whole I still don’t immediately see these doing things I can’t already do with CHA classes.
Different?
Sure.
Better? Meh...
The Int to attacks/damage is not broken by any means. Losing an ASI, 3 levels of spell progression levels and 1 level of spell slot progression is pretty hard to justify to be a SAD character. What Battle Smith does give you is a solid companion/mount and effectively a bonus action attack. A wizard doesn't care all that much about it. It's a nice multi-class for an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Archer perhaps. Personally, I'd go all in on Battle Smith and not bother multi-classing out to other things. The level 20 capstone is crazy good if you're aiming to be a tank. I think you can guaranteed have the following: +2 Half Plate, +1 Repelling Shield(Attunement), Cloak of Protection(Attunement), Ring of Protection(Attunement), Amulet of Health(Attunement) + 2 other Attuned Non-Infusion Items: +8 to all saves, 24AC, 183HP+20HP(Upcast Aid) . Your Iron Guardian will have 15AC and 107HP+20HP(Upcast Aid).
Assuming you could attune to a staff of power you're getting +10 to saves and 26 AC. You'll have lots of spare ASI. Grab Toughness and boost your HP up to 243. +3 Shield or +3 Plate would also add more AC if you find them. Even more fun, find a Shield Guardian and have him guarding you as well. Have him cast haste on you and maintain concentration on it. You're not quite invulnerable but it will take ALOT to get you out of the fight. Unfortunately you're not doing that much more damage at level 20 than you did at level 5. Animate Objects on a bunch of +1 admantine daggers might be your best bet. You've got something like +20 to Con saves to maintain concentration. Perhaps with advantage if you took warcaster.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anderlith
What subclass & background would you recommend for a character that grew up in a small town & went to war as an Artificer to get a chance to learn magic/artifice like he always wanted but could never afford Wizard school?
Soldier or Folk Hero both would work very well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misterwhisper
Yes, actually, it is.
If someone puts out a product, even if that product is free, does not give them blanket immunity from negative responses about its quality.
It's a critique but not a constructive one. Side by side comparisons with say Hexblade or Moon Druid, which are the most OP classes I can think of of the top of my head would be more helpful. I already have a few things I'll suggest in WotC's survey on this to tone it down some, and I'd love to hear yours too.
Anyway UA has always gone with a balls to the wall then dial it back approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spiritchaser
Actually what I think is of special interest is that the artificer can make a headband of intellect
If you can handle the path to level 12 with int 16, you can boost it to 19 with no ASIs
This could lead to a LOT of feats, or Very high CON.
That's pretty neat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jaappleton
Everyone complaining that using Int for weapons is OP, remember this takes 3 levels of investment. THREE. That's literally 3X as much investment as it does for anyone dipping Hexblade. And there's only ONE other full class which keys off Intelligence, the Wizard, and a grand total of just four other non-Wizard subclasses in the game which key off Intelligence: Arcane Archer, EK, Arcane Trickster and Mastermind Rogue. Only two of which are spellcasters, and even then, only 1/3rd casters.
As opposed to the synergy that all the Charisma focused classes have.
And lets not forget anyone Wisdom focused can steal everyones favorite Druid cantrip and key off Wisdom for melee attacks.
Everyone complaining about Int for attacks needs to calm the hell down.
Yup. I struggling to see how attacking with Int on a halfcaster is more OP than attacking Cha (for double damage I think) on a fullcaster.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trustypeaches
The Battlesmith seems like two strong subclasses smashed together.
It’s the martial subclass, the medic subclass, and the combat pet subclass all at once. It should just be two of those things, IMO.
Also they really should change Alchemist’s sixth level feature to either (A) include another damage type or (B) apply to potions and poisons made by the Alchemist as well (+INT to cheap healing potions would be nice).
Agreed.
Battlesmith is way too strong.
Archivist is also pretty strong. It's basically a chain warlock without having to deal with the crippling weaknesses of being a warlock.
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Re: The artificer returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GlenSmash!
Yup. I struggling to see how attacking with Int on a halfcaster is more OP than attacking Cha (for double damage I think) on a fullcaster.
The concerns are probably related to defense.
With Bladesinger, you can afford to focus strictly on Intelligence, allowing you to rock a crazy high AC for minimal cost.
With Eldritch Knight, you can afford to focus on Intelligence and keep Strength as your secondary. Strength is more efficient, in terms of both gold cost and stats, at lower values when it comes to determining AC. It's a better secondary/tertiary stat than Dexterity, hands down.
Note that with the Hexblade or Monk Shillelagh builds, nothing that they gain from having a mental attack stat will actually improve their survivability. A Warlock still needs to rely on Dexterity, and the Monk's defensive stats are unchanged by going from Dexterity to Wisdom.
Consider how powerful/common Paladin levels with Hexblade are. Now expect the same thing with Eldritch Knights and Artificers, except now it's less Divine Smite and more Sentinel+Shield. So that's going to be...fun.