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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Voidhawk
I have always wondered: how exactly do By-The-Codex chapters (such as all those infinite Ultra-clones) manage to win any wars against cany opponents? All their operating proceedures, strategies, and most commonly used tactics are written down in a giant tome that's been passed around more often than Jurgens porn slate!
Bottom line: Because it's used by Space Marines, who are bolt-hard and can individually pacify entire planets, given enough time and a decent supply of resources. Or even less, in the case of some Space Marines such as Brother Cloten of the Blood Angels, who did it naked and bare handed.
The Codex merely encourages them to be well prepared, disciplined, practiced, drilled, loyal and coordinated at the same time. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t209
There are actually good reasons for rejecting or not fully following Codex Astartes.
- Blood Angels Marine can go in Black Rage and Red Thirst, which turned them into a berserker, at any second in battlefield.
- Space Wolves cannot broken up into successor chapters because they have Wulfen curse, look at what happened to Wolf Brothers Chapter.
Also because Leman Russ hated Guilleman's guts.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Voidhawk
I have always wondered: how exactly do By-The-Codex chapters (such as all those infinite Ultra-clones) manage to win any wars against cany opponents? All their operating proceedures, strategies, and most commonly used tactics are written down in a giant tome that's been passed around more often than Jurgens porn slate!
I mean, surely the Eldar have at least one copy of it floating around by now? Combine that with their Farseers, and I really don't know how the Ultramarines have ever won a war against them at all. More to the point, all renegade chapters start with it, and well versed in it's practical application to boot!
Knowing the Codex Astartes might help you analyze deployments and predict certain responses, but that's not as helpful as you'd think. It might specify specific deployment strategies and formations, but there'd be several of them. For instance, there might be four different formations for advancing on a highly fortified position when the enemy has the high ground, and choosing which one should be applied would be based on the situation and the preferences and strengths of the unit making the advance. And because of the chaotic nature of combat, they'd be generalized sorts of things; Here's an example that Calgar quotes in Chapter's Due, "If you know both yourself and your enemy,you can win a hundred battles without a single loss. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him." That's not a specific "Do X if Y and Z," it's a guiding principle a commander should keep in mind.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squark
Here's an example that Calgar quotes in Chapter's Due, "If you know both yourself and your enemy,you can win a hundred battles without a single loss. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him." That's not a specific "Do X if Y and Z," it's a guiding principle a commander should keep in mind.
I also think that's a paraphrase of Sun Tzu.
Just because you follow a Doctrine, does not mean you could be replaced with a mathematical function. "Insert Situation A, do Strategy B".
Lets say you are an SM commander fighting Orcs. You look in the CA for advice on fighting Orcs.
The CA says that "Orcs are always eager for battle, poorly organized, and prone to infighting." It could then list some good strategies for fighting Orcs: Use a false retreat to lure them into a killbox. Trick them into firing on one another, eliminate the Warboss to collapse their chain of command, ect. It might explain the types of strategies Orks like to use (Run Towards Them Shooting and Screaming), ect ect.
It probably won't have a bunch of diagrams saying "If you have 2 squads of Tactical marines, plus a Predator Tank and a squad of scouts on top of a 10 meter hill with 238 Orks, approximately half of which are armed with two-handed firearms, you should do X, that is, unless it rained the previous night or one of your Scouts is named Steve"
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BRC
It probably won't have a bunch of diagrams saying "If you have 2 squads of Tactical marines, plus a Predator Tank and a squad of scouts on top of a 10 meter hill with 238 Orks, approximately half of which are armed with two-handed firearms, you should do X, that is, unless it rained the previous night or one of your Scouts is named Steve"
Dammit, what did Steve do this time?
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Dammit, what did Steve do this time?
Well, let's check.
Quote:
Codex Astartes: Volume CXVIIIIII, Chapter XVIIII, Section VIIII
Steve.
Seriously, what is UP with that guy? Remember that one time with the land raider? that was crazy. Or the time he got captured by Orks, but then they made him their king? Or the thing with the fish?
The point is, Steve is a great guy to have around, really lightens up the Battle Barge, tells all the good jokes. However, he wouldn't know how to burn a heretic dancing in gasoline. I've got no idea how he survived the trials, much less the centuries of battle he's been through.
I mean, I wouldn't say a bad word against the guy. He's like a brother to me, and his hearts are in the right places, but you kind of have to plan your tactics around him if you know what I mean. And don't let him use the plasma canons.
Remember, know the enemy, know the ground, know where Steve is, and you need fear no defeat.
-Roboute Guilliman
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I have no words for such awesome.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BRC
Remember, know the enemy, know the ground, and know if Steve is with you, and you need fear no defeat.
I'd reword that to '..and know where Steve is, and you need fear no defeat.' :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tehnar
That story reminds me of the Saga of the Whistling Termagaunt.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Is it just me, or are the Dark Heresy Assault cannons a lot stronger than the tabletop ones? 3d10 damage per shot, versus a heavy bolters's 2d10? Granted, the heavy bolter in question has been downsized for use by normal humans.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Probably. The tabletop is much more abstract.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Concerning the issue of enemies using the codex against the Space Marines: the US army has field manuals that contain "detailed information and how-tos for procedures important to soldiers serving in the field". All, or almost all, of them are available to the public, and many are in the public domain.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I don't think the Codex Astartes is common reading material in the Imperium...
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TechnoScrabble
I don't think the Codex Astartes is common reading material in the Imperium...
Yes, but my point was that even if the enemy were to have access to such a thing, it would not be much of a loss. Besides, I doubt that the Imperium's tactics and strategies have changed very much over the millennia, and even then the rate of change would be slow. The Imperium has been fighting the other major factions for at least centuries, and many members of those factions have long life spans.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I think one the major issues would be when things that ARENT in the codex pop up; Tyranids and Necrons being the biggest, since they are pretty serious threats and need specific ways to fight them, ways that can not be contemplated in the Codex due to simply there being no necrons or tyranids back when it was written.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LansXero
I think one the major issues would be when things that ARENT in the codex pop up; Tyranids and Necrons being the biggest, since they are pretty serious threats and need specific ways to fight them, ways that can not be contemplated in the Codex due to simply there being no necrons or tyranids back when it was written.
The specific nuances, maybe, like 'Shoot the Big Ones'. But general tactics for dealing with (in)human wave tactics and horde assaults would definitely be in the Codex, and they'd apply just fine. The Battle of Macragge, for instance, was more or less a textbook Codex defense - it would have fallen eventually through sheer weight of numbers, but their defenses did hold out long enough for the relief fleet to arrive.
No one could have predicted the Necrons though.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
But there could still be example cases, since the marines surely had a wealth of alien races to draw from. So it might not be "when fighting Tyranids, do X" but "when fighting an enemy who vastly outnumbers you" "when fighting an enemy who is immune to morale damage" and "when fighting an enemy who is very dependend on his command structure", all of which can be applied to the 'nids.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Necrons'd be trickier, but anti-demon tactics would cover teleportation, and aside from gauss weaponry's ability to gradually tear a hull apart, their technology's use still follows basic principles that the codex should describe- Tesla Destructors and the various blast weaponry would be countered by tactics used against foes with large amounts of explosive (I.E. taking cover and spreading out), Gauss weapons would be covered in regards to fighting enemies with high-powered anti-infantry rounds, etc.
The main differences would be dealing with their reanimation (Which can largely be countered by overkill and then shooting parts that are trying to reassemble), the ability of Guass weaponry to take down heavy armour when used in sufficient quantities, and the medical principles needed to treat Gauss wounds- The latter of which probably would belong in a seperate treatise given to apothecaries anyway.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Oh god.
Oh god.
What.
How-
How do you guys know Steve? Oh god. I mean, that has to be just a random name you picked, right? There can't be TWO Steves that fit that description.
Is one of you from my gaming group or something?
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
Oh god.
Oh god.
What.
How-
How do you guys know Steve? Oh god. I mean, that has to be just a random name you picked, right? There can't be TWO Steves that fit that description.
Is one of you from my gaming group or something?
"Steve" is my default name. Games I DM tend to be chock full of Steves, Stevens, Stevies, and Stevs.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
My gaming group was very fond of individuals named 'Dave'. A Dark Heresy acolyte team once diverted halfway across a war-torn city in the middle of a warp-fueled thunderstorm to make sure this guard named Dave was all right.
Anyway, I believe the issue with the Battle of Macragge was that the Codex Astartes only partially worked. The Tyranids had enough broad similarities to standard foes that the Codex tactics seemed sensible, but the specifics and unexpected surprises cost the Ultramarines dearly.
That said, I'm still generally convinced that the Codex Astartes is a sensible and valuable tactical and strategic doctrine. I have no patience for fans who insist that just because Gulliman actually wrote down his insights and philosophies that they are somehow less valid than other methods. Standard Operating Procedure is assigned as such because in the overwhelming majority of cases, it bloody well works.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GolemsVoice
But there could still be example cases, since the marines surely had a wealth of alien races to draw from. So it might not be "when fighting Tyranids, do X" but "when fighting an enemy who vastly outnumbers you" "when fighting an enemy who is immune to morale damage" and "when fighting an enemy who is very dependend on his command structure", all of which can be applied to the 'nids.
Fun fact: I read somewhere that the US army has contingency plans, for this reason, for fighting Aliens, Zombies, and the Girl Scouts. (How do you fight an army your soldiers will refuse to kill?)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well, I don't know about Girl Scouts, but we do have training runs that are similar to the situations. More advanced enemies, quarantining, and enemies we won't dare shoot at.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Its a grim dark universe, of course it has to be hilarious and tragic at the same time. Except Orks, they are only hilarious :smallbiggrin:
The Codex Astartes was written 10,000 years ago from the current age. Thats about as long as the entire human civilization (or longer). Now imagine that you are sitting across the room with someone from 10,000 years ago. Even if you could understand each other, I don't doubt that the two cultures would be so far apart, that you would consider each other crazy.
So we have this book, that was written in a time of different technology, different political landscape, different opposing factions. Not to mention that the book had to be copied numerous times, or else it would be lost to decay. How many little changes over the years must have crept in, even if we assume that Astartes live on average a 1000 years. The bible is a example how much written text changes over the years.
Now I love the 40k universe, but most of its premises are built on what sounds cool and over the top, instead of logical. Space Marines are big dudes in multi colored armor following a ancient book because it is funny (and tragic), not because it makes sense.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Except the technology of the 41st millenium isn't that far divorced from that of when Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes. And the Art of War is only a fraction of that age, but much of what's in it is still relevant. The Basic tactics of the 40k universe haven't really changed that much in the last 10000 years simply because it's a giant stalemate. Space Marine tactcis wouldn't change that much unless something happened like every Space Marine being able to wear a 100% accurate, 100% safe Personal teleporter.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well the Art of War came to be over a period of 300-500 years, and survived in that shape only because a archeological find.
While the technology level might be similar in 30K and 40K, the political situation is much different. Written at the time of crusades and civil war, with little to none daemonic or xeno threats; compared to now where the Imperium is somewhat stable, but beset on all sides. There has not been a significant expansion in millienia.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
So that'd be a downer if the Codex were mostly political stuff, but if it is some combination of useful tactics like Reverse Slope Defense/Steel Rain and useful thought devices like “Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.” then it should still apply just fine, even thousands of years later.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
It's probably a mixture of both, with military advice and chapters on how to lead a legion, how to govern a planet and so on. Kinda like a mixture of The Art of War and Platon's writings.
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
A question based on the new Dark Angels codex- have there been two or more Supreme Grand Masters to bear the name Azrael?
The new codex has the current Supreme Grand Master Azrael take the post in 939.M41.
The Siege of Vraks is dated in the 6e rulebook as beginning in 812.M41 and lasting well over a decade.
In the Siege of Vraks background books, a Supreme Grand Master Azrael led the Chapter to participate in the fight for Vraks, in 821.M41.