Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

Pauper did not need

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goblin guide.

Darn

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ghitu lavamancer

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Honestly, though, black has to be the most powerful color, followed by red. So much offensive power. I love it.

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Originally Posted by Qwanch

Honestly, though, black has to be the most powerful color, followed by red. So much offensive power. I love it.

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Nope, Blue is the most powerful, sorry.

Red is, I believe, usually considered the least powerful.

Of course, it depends on what your frame of reference is. Overall power? Standard? Modern? Legacy? Commander? Vintage? Pauper? Canadian Highlander Vanguard Archenemy?

Yeah there's no way Black is more powerful than Blue, the color with 3 members of the Power 9, one of which is in the running for best Magic card of all time. Black is definitely number 2 by a mile. Red and White are the two considerations for the bottom. I think Red is worse overall, but it's hard to say for sure.

Now that I'm thinking about it, what single color has the most banned cards across all of history? I think it's blue, but I'm not actually certain.

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Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

Nope, Blue is the most powerful, sorry.

Red is, I believe, usually considered the least powerful.

Of course, it depends on what your frame of reference is. Overall power? Standard? Modern? Legacy? Commander? Vintage? Pauper? Canadian Highlander Vanguard Archenemy?

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overall aggro

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Originally Posted by Qwanch

overall aggro

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Continues to be nope.

Red and White are the quintessential "aggro" colours. Not to say mono black aggro doesn't exist, but white and red are much more common.

Black is a good midrange colour and also very good at combo, depending on the format.

Blue continues to be the most powerful colour, if we take Magic as a whole, although I'd argue that the most powerful card in the history of Magic is black.

Define "powerful".

Blue is unquestionably the best support color. Between card filtering and counterspelling, it has answers for anything that could stifle a given deck and enhancing the main game plan, making one of the most splashable colors in the modern age. (I could grumble about how there'd be more color diversity if Black or White were allowed more decent counterspells, but regardless.)

Black has the best game-ending spells and overall versatility in the game. See also, Exsanguinate in Commander, Yawgmoth's Will, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, discount fatties like Gurmag Angler, (finally) the best modern removal in Fatal Push. It has powerful support abilities in discard effects—Liliana of the Veil is one of the best planeswalkers around for a reason.

Green has some of the least iteractability, but most powerful ETB effects and undercosted fatties. Mono-Green's curve goes 1 mana 3/3+ (Experiment 1), 2 mana for total 5/3 (Strangleroot Geist, possible Avatar of Resolute), 3 mana 4/5 (or Dungrove Elder for 4/4+ with Hexproof), 6 mana Primalcrux (BIG/BIG). It's got Survival of the Fittest, Green Sun's Zenith, and more for tutoring. It's got Eternal Witness. It has ALL the mana. It's got everything you need to threaten the opponent... just not disrupt them. It's excellent to pair, as well.

White is, recently, defined as the color of efficiency. Baneslayer Angel. Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares. Wrath of God. Entreat the Angels/Resto Angel/Stoneforge Mystic/Balance/Elesh Norn/Sun Titan/Aven Mindcensor. One card from White will deal with multiple cards from another color, and it's just some of the best efficiency you could hope for. ...While being completely vulnerable to combo and having a huge amount of difficulty drawing cards on its own.

Red is the color of fast victory. Whether from Storm, Burn, Splinter Twin, whatever, most non-ANT combo decks will be running red. Also, its draw/discard is absolutely amazing for Dredge. That said, it's been shoehorned into being a one-trick pony, and it will never have the flexibility of the other colors.

So which color is the most powerful?

In terms of raw board presence, Mono-Green Stompy. One of my favorite decks during original Innistrad, really. It's got surprising draw potential from things like Garruk, Primal Hunter. It's fun.

In terms of winning games and losing friends? At an all mono-color tournament, no one is going to beat High Tide without banlist cards. It's about the least fun thing in the world to play with or against, though.

In terms of multiplayer EDH? Black is the unquestionable king. Exsanguinate, Cabal Coffers and other mana doublers, controlling other players' turns, and extremely efficient creatures and creature control with powerful card draw effects make for an excellent time.

In terms of beating other players quickly to hang out between rounds, play mono-red. Win fast or lose instantly. Why not?

In terms of causing human misery, play White. To those who doubt me, I just have one word: Cataclysm. (Balance also be up there.) Blue may be agonizing to play against, but there is nothing as miserable as a resolved Cataclysm with a Sun titan out after having your one remaining creature Swords to Plowshares'd.

I definitely would rather play against a mono-black deck than a mono-blue deck in Commander. I dunno if you've seen the ridiculous blue combo decks, but they're ridiculous for a reason. I don't want to play against decks that win on turn 3 or earlier most of the time with counter backup.

Also blue has great aggro. Merfolk is the best mono-blue deck in multiple constructed formats, and it's a pretty reasonable option in Modern. Mono-blue can curve a 3/2 flier into a 7/8, with a bit of work, and has powerful options to push through damage with Vapor Snag. Plus Snapcaster Mage is a surprisingly reasonable creature in a variety of formats, among the best even.

It also has access to some of the most powerful combo pieces in history, notably Tinker and Show and Tell. It has the best Planeswalker of all time in Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Force of Will is a card no other color can begin to replicate. Blue has one of the single most powerful mechanics, permanent (as opposed to temporary) stealing, basically all to itself. You can make a mono-blue cube with all the major archetypes accounted for and have all those decks be good. I dunno, I think historically Blue probably wins the "best overall" award.

"All to itself" you say?

That said, yeah, Blue is the most powerful color.

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Originally Posted by enderlord99

"All to itself" you say?

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Yes, blue has permanent stealing (by which I mean stealing without duration, rather than temporary stealing) to itself. Many of the cards are pretty conditional. Artifacts can do it, but artifacts can do anything so that doesn't really count when it comes to color pie. And for the most part, Blue has this effect and everyone else has to stretch pretty hard color pie to get it. I'd say it's pretty solidly Blue's mechanic. I guess white gets some, but most of the others are either weird or extremely flavor-specific.

History sure is weird, but even based on present pie Blue as a color, with access to all the effects Blue is supposed to have, might still be the most powerful. Taking extra turns, thievery without time limit, and card drawing are some of the most powerful mechanics in the game and other colors don't get the same access to these as Blue. Black gets tutoring and green gets extra lands. The other mechanics in the game are probably just worse than Blue's suite, especially taken in combination. Blue has an unfair share, really.

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Originally Posted by tgva8889

Yes, blue has permanent stealing (by which I mean stealing without duration, rather than temporary stealing) to itself. Many of the cards are pretty conditional. Artifacts can do it, but artifacts can do anything so that doesn't really count when it comes to color pie. And for the most part, Blue has this effect and everyone else has to stretch pretty hard color pie to get it. I'd say it's pretty solidly Blue's mechanic.

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Olivia Voldaren. Enslave. Captivating Vampire. Unhallowed Pact. Zombify type effects arguably count as well. Black is allowed permanent creature stealing often enough that I think it doesn't count as stretching the color pie, even if it isn't as core as Blue's control is.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the edit. I agree that Blue definitely has an unfair share, especially since forceable control is kinda logical for Black to have, and counterspells have bled into Black and White occasionally. It'd be nice to see Wizards succeed in giving Red a color identity outside of "BURN" and "Discard and draw", though.

Enslave is a Planar Chaos card, so it basically doesn't exist for the purposes of color pie arguments (Mark Rosewater taken as the authority here). The others are Vampire specific or raising the dead. Given what black is supposed to stand for, I feel like if it were in color pie they'd just get a "gain control of target creature" effect already.

Perhaps I overexaggerate, but Blue has a lot more of the mechanic over more of Magic's history than any other color does, so while perhaps it's not the only color to ever do it in the history of time it's certainly the color that has the most access. My point is better made in commenting that Blue's mechanics in the color pie are likely the best mechanics.

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Originally Posted by tgva8889

Enslave is a Planar Chaos card, so it basically doesn't exist for the purposes of color pie arguments (Mark Rosewater taken as the authority here). The others are Vampire specific or raising the dead. Given what black is supposed to stand for, I feel like if it were in color pie they'd just get a "gain control of target creature" effect already.

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New Blood, from Commander 2017 doesn't count? Ritual of the Machine is fairly old, but it is unconditional creature control.

That said, I do think that Planar Chaos concepts should really be applied more to modern magic. Especially for Red, which got some really nifty effects that sadly did not stick. Would be nice to see them get more offensive bounce and Torchling style things. Also that the concepts shouldn't entirely be discounted from color pie discussions, as Prodigal Pyromancer is (at present) far more of a Red card than Prodigal Sorcerer is Blue.

Grixis Energy has completed its string of victories at my LGS, winning after beating Janknought 2-0, Hazored 2-0 and tying 1-1-1 against Grixis Control. Not sure yet what to do in Dominaria, possibly tempo wizards, Azorius Approach (given up on getting Esper working) or something janky in Mardu.

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Originally Posted by Morgardin

To follow up with the "Magic Deck" theme, I present - G/W Landfall

Curious to see people's thoughts!

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Have you considered Flagstones of Trokair? It's pretty incredible with Ghost Quarter. My favorite deck of my own construction is a similar deck, except its R/W and goes all in on the combo aspect with Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward.

Are white and its allies the most “villainous” colors? Compared to red and black, the other colors seem to have pretty ominous philosophies.

Wait, what?

Black is generally the most villainous colour, since it's usually the one that will actively harm others for its personal gain. Black doesn't really care about morals or how it treats people, only about itself, so if it gets some form of benefit out of being villainous then it's not going to think twice.

Red generally cares very deeply about some things but is generally pretty destructive to those things it doesn't care about.

Green generally actively goes after those that oppose the 'natural order' but otherwise isn't out to harm you (though it is still dangerous because it's wild and untamed).

White, like green, actively goes after those that oppose White's personal morals, but if your outlook conforms with White's your generally okay. Whether White is villainous depends a lot on what sort of moral compass the character / organization has.

Blue is quite amoral (though not as much as black) and tends to think of things from a cold logic / long term perspective. Blue also values control and information heavily which can result in a villain pretty easily.


In order of how frequently villians appear in a colour (in magic sets):

1. Black - many of them
2. Red
3. Blue
4. White
5. Green

Blue and White are quite close to each other, but Black is definitely most villainous and Green definitely shows up on villains the least.

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Originally Posted by Svata

Wait, what?

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The enemies of black are all about conformity, group think, and control. Blue isn’t as bad as white/green, but it also has an element of control I don’t trust. I can see villains from any color besides red and black. Red and Black seem like the most virtuous colors.

Can you think of good guys who are White/Green or White/Blue?

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Originally Posted by Qwanch

The enemies of black are all about conformity, group think, and control. Blue isn’t as bad as white/green, but it also has an element of control I don’t trust. I can see villains from any color besides red and black. Red and Black seem like the most virtuous colors.

Can you think of good guys who are White/Green or White/Blue?

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Using recent magic examples, Gideon is a monowhite good guy. Ajani is a white/green good guy. Teferi is a white/blue good guy. Most of the white good guys have the good aspects of white - self-sacrifice, leadership, heroism - without necessarily having all the negative aspects of white, like prejudice and judgmentalism.

Every colour has villainous sides.

Blue wants to control and know everything.

White believes that those that don't conform to its morals should be contained or destroyed.

Green tears apart anything that doesn't follow the natural order.

Red is explosive, uncontrolled and doesn't care about the consequences of its actions.

Black doesn't care about anyone but itself and will actively harm others for personal gain.

No colour in Magic is specifically "good" or "bad", in and of themselves.

They just have tendencies that can lead to characters and behaviours we'd consider "good" as well as one's we'd consider "bad".

Mark Rosewater, who is one of the people who is super into the colour pie, considers Jean-Luc Picard to be a UW character, and he's definitely a heroic character.

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Originally Posted by Qwanch

The enemies of black are all about conformity, group think, and control. Blue isn’t as bad as white/green, but it also has an element of control I don’t trust. I can see villains from any color besides red and black. Red and Black seem like the most virtuous colors.

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You see nothing but villainy in caring for others, in putting the group before oneself? You see no possibility but heroism in going after what one wants for oneself at any costs, regardless of the effects on others? Don't get me wrong, black =/= evil all the time, but it definitely has the greatest tendency towards villainy.

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Originally Posted by Svata

You see nothing but villainy in caring for others, in putting the group before oneself? You see no possibility but heroism in going after what one wants for oneself at any costs, regardless of the effects on others? Don't get me wrong, black =/= evil all the time, but it definitely has the greatest tendency towards villainy.

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The former crushes freewill, stifles innovation, and disregards indivual rights and prefences. The latter is more likely to fight for the rights of others because they are themselves concerned about their own rights, freedoms, and ambition.

Red/Black still seems most heroic, but especially black.

By the way, what is the courtesy rule in MTG commander deck plays?

I heard people don't like playing against blue, especially if they win on like the third turn... Is their a kind of deck everyone despise in commander?

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Originally Posted by Emmerlaus

By the way, what is the courtesy rule in MTG commander deck plays?

I heard people don't like playing against blue, especially if they win on like the third turn... Is their a kind of deck everyone despise in commander?

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I think it depends a lot on playgroup.

A couple of ours were to not use mass land destruction unless you had a win-con ready (e.g. holding up mana to cast your Ruhan after an Obliterate). Otherwise, you were likely to make about half the group fold and one or two others stick it out for an unreasonable amount of time.

We also tended to hate a lot on players trying to do infinite combos but not understanding how they actually work, because we had one player in particular who would spend 10 or 15 minutes turns thinking about whether or not he would be ready to go off. It didn't help that he tended to use commanders like Karn, Silver Golem (before wastes existed) or Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder (whom we did nickname "Endrek Sahr, Masterba***r" because of this exact problem).

We tended to not really ban that many cards because we all played board politics a lot, played tons of pet cards, and also were just poor college students at the time. When we began to get jobs and work for money was when we transitioned into playing cube mostly.

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Originally Posted by Qwanch

The former crushes freewill, stifles innovation, and disregards indivual rights and prefences. The latter is more likely to fight for the rights of others because they are themselves concerned about their own rights, freedoms, and ambition.

Red/Black still seems most heroic, but especially black.

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Uh, no, that's not how that works.

He quite explicitly said the latter does not give the slightest damn about others.

Every color combination can have heroes and/or villains, but black is more prone to them because there is no part of black that cares about other people.

Here, show me 5 red and black heroes in the MtG storyline (I'd even take 5 mono-black). I'm not sure there even ARE 5 black-mana aligned heroes. Off the top of my head there are

Teshiro Umezawa (Mono-black)
Tetsuo Umezawa (Grixis)
Teysa from Ravnica.
I guess Vraska is kind of on her way there.
And Liliana.

So, I guess there are at least 5.

Name me 5 characters that aren't these.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ack-2004-02-02 Here's the article by Mark Rosewater. Nowhere in there does it describe Black caring about others.

What you're describing sounds like White/Red.

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Originally Posted by Qwanch

The former crushes freewill, stifles innovation, and disregards indivual rights and prefences. The latter is more likely to fight for the rights of others because they are themselves concerned about their own rights, freedoms, and ambition.

Red/Black still seems most heroic, but especially black.

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You're going to really have to re-examine your logic there.

Fighting for someone else's rights is White. White subscribes to the idea that everyone is better served by a structured society with clearly defined laws, which in turn define the obligations and the rights of the people living in that society - if you deny someone their rights according to the laws it has set, White will step in to defend those rights.

White only becomes villainous (in our western civilization eyes) when it forgets that having personal freedoms is an integral part of what allows people to be happy, and that a society structure that doesn't respect personal freedoms (including the pursuit of happiness) can never be the greater good.

Black doesn't even recognize the concept of "right" or "wrong". A Black character will do what benefits them, no matter if that means they trample on the rights of others. That just doesn't enter into their worldview - other people don't have a "right" to deny the Black character access to what they want.

The only way Black characters end up fighting for the sake of others is if they think doing so will ultimately be to their benefit somehow - so they're the least likely to be heroic characters in any given story.

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Originally Posted by Fable Wright

New Blood, from Commander 2017 doesn't count? Ritual of the Machine is fairly old, but it is unconditional creature control.

That said, I do think that Planar Chaos concepts should really be applied more to modern magic. Especially for Red, which got some really nifty effects that sadly did not stick. Would be nice to see them get more offensive bounce and Torchling style things. Also that the concepts shouldn't entirely be discounted from color pie discussions, as Prodigal Pyromancer is (at present) far more of a Red card than Prodigal Sorcerer is Blue.

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New Blood is Vampire-specific and included in that category. Ritual of the Machine does count, though.

I'd agree that some things would be nice, but that's Word of God from the Lord of the Color Pie. Some things do make more sense, but using any Planar Chaos card to argue a color can do X in color pie is a mistake. Fortunately, you can argue red can do pingers with a wide variety of other cards, so it's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Qwanch

Are white and its allies the most “villainous” colors? Compared to red and black, the other colors seem to have pretty ominous philosophies.

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It does strongly depend on what you define as "heroic" and what you define as "villainous". To every color, it's the hero and its enemies are the villains. White can have heroes like Superman and villains like Adam Sutler from V for Vendetta (or really most dictators). The same is true for every color. "Hero" and "villain" are really points of view more than they are useful definitions of philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Silfir

You're going to really have to re-examine your logic there.

Fighting for someone else's rights is White. White subscribes to the idea that everyone is better served by a structured society with clearly defined laws, which in turn define the obligations and the rights of the people living in that society - if you deny someone their rights according to the laws it has set, White will step in to defend those rights.

White only becomes villainous (in our western civilization eyes) when it forgets that having personal freedoms is an integral part of what allows people to be happy, and that a society structure that doesn't respect personal freedoms (including the pursuit of happiness) can never be the greater good.

Black doesn't even recognize the concept of "right" or "wrong". A Black character will do what benefits them, no matter if that means they trample on the rights of others. That just doesn't enter into their worldview - other people don't have a "right" to deny the Black character access to what they want.

The only way Black characters end up fighting for the sake of others is if they think doing so will ultimately be to their benefit somehow - so they're the least likely to be heroic characters in any given story.

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Well...there is an element of it being for myself. I want to experience all the world has to offer, and I only want a few close friends to enjoy that with. That said, a lot of what I fight against ALSO happens to be unpopular with about half the population. Also, despite being a hyper political guy who won’t ever shut up about politics, I’m also a hedonist and a nihilist, albeit a nihilist of the “anti-nihilist” variety. I don’t really believe much in right and wrong morality, but I do believe in the social contract and if I can renegotiate certain parts of that, great. It helps I can rally people to my side by pointing out how it benefits them and appealing to their emotions.

I’ve considered everything from Jund to Abzan to Naya as my color combo.

Meaning no offense, this thread is not about your political or philosophical inclinations, and continued discussion about colour philosophy seems kind of dumb when I mostly just want to... talk about playing the actual damn game.

Anyone got some cards from Dominaria they're excited for? I'm interested in Artificer's Assistant. Looks like it could be surprisingly powerful in the right deck.