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I was talking to one of my less nerdy friends (we're both math PhD students) and I admitted to playing D&D to him. He asked what it was about and I said it's all about optimization.
Now I'm the kind of person who thinks I like fluff over crunch... but I dunno. Is D&D all about optimization?
D&D is all about fun.
Sometimes, optimization is fun...sometimes tragic comedy is fun.
I believe that saying "D&D is all about optimization" is about on-par with "Women's Tennis is all about the skirts and grunting." For some of us, it's the only reason to get involved, for others it's just a bonus, and for others-still, we don't even realize it exists.
At least indirectly, yes. Even if you play with a low/no op group you select skills and feats to better perform the tasks you feel your character should be good at. For example, you build a wrestler themed fighter, at the very least you are going to take improved grapple as a feat. This single selection is the basic corner stone of any grappling bulds optimization platform. You may not take it much further for whatever reason, but that single choice means atleast indirectly began optimizing for grappling.
If you view your character as being a sneaky assassin...you are going to put ranks in hide/move silently. You may evem buy a cloak/boots of elven kind to help. Again you have taken baby steps into optimizing something based on fluff and visualization of your character archetype.
I think so. Later editions anyway.
If tinkering with minmaxing isn't the goal, I can think of plenty of games that are easier to teach, use or adjudicate for the same fiction. But the optimization part has the draw of being kind of entertaining to fiddle with outside the game, and then to get to try out in the game itself.
I'd say that it isn't "all about" optimization because optimization is a means to an end, not an end in itself. You have to decide what you want to optimize for before you start after all.
If you want your character to be powerful, you can optimize a T1 Caster to make the game weep. If you want your character to be badass, I've seen Monk builds which can hold their own at T3-level play. If you want to fit a narrative role or have a cool RP idea, optimization will help ensure you're concept plays out the way you want it to.
So I'd say it's important, but not the goal or the metric of success.
"D&D is all about optimization" is true in the same sense that "D&D is all about rolling dice" is true. It certainly captures an important element of the game for a lot of people, but often isn't specifically the draw. Just like you can't play D&D without optimizing even a little bit (even on a low level, picking power attack or improved initiative instead of, say, negotiator, in your Fighter level 4 makes a huge difference), you can't play D&D without rolling dice. But for me,
D&D has always been about awesome stories and fighting and spells and stuff. When I first sat down to play AD&D with my brother as a kid it definitely wasn't because I wanted to optimize (though it may have been because I wanted to roll dice)... it was because I wanted to rescue princesses, slay dragons, and have great adventures.
I think there is a difference between character building and character optimization, fine line as it is.
In the first you are giving shape to a concept, and it is fine to make it good at something, the second I see more like bending the concept for mechanical advantages; but I am kinda opposite to the OP on this regards, I believe the fluff to be as important as the crunch.
In the end I agree with Medic!, it's all about enjoying yourself, however you see fit.
D&D, like most RPGs, is all about "Let's kill things and take their stuff". ^^
Although I have to say, fiddling with character concepts and trying to find ever new ways of kicking ass is half the fun. And that's kind of what sets D&D 3.X apart from anything else (at least the mainstream stuff) -- there are thousands and thousands of options, classes, feats, spells, you name it. This extreme wealth in character options. And it's really the reason why 3.5, despite all its shortcomings, is still my favourite system.
I completely agree. In the end it is about fun. And I think optimization is where part of the fun is. One thing is TO. If that were the most important, every party would consist of a wizard/incantatrix and a druid/planar sheperd. But they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medic!
The fun is in, besides in experiencing the great story and having fun with friends, having this concept of a certain type of character and making it work. Whether it is a one-legged rogue or a sorcerer in full-plate, there is an idea behind it (and a cool character) and in order to make it work, one needs to optimize (at least to some extent). Figuring out how to make this concept and this character work and putting it succesfully into play is a big part of the fun of the game.
For the people who say optimization plays little part in D&D as a game, I'm curious what the appeal is of D&D over some of the lighter games like Castles and Crusades or Warrior Rogue and Mage that have the same storytelling and quirky character development without the thousands of pages of rulebooks to dig through to spec a character.
Is D&D just the best-marketed/best-known game, or is there something else that the "game is about" which the system itself supports?
No, but optimization plays an extremely important role in the way (too) many people play the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by danzibr
The thread below this one is titled "Endless wishes, what should I use them on?". The one above this one is "Help with Anti-Magic Fields".
Dueling in MMOs is all about optimization. With D&D it depends on the group.
You ask that as if it's BadWrongFun.Quote:
Originally Posted by danzibr
D&D is where you take on the persona of a character like in a book or movie within a generally fantasy-world setting and do Great Things. How this is done is based on the personal style and choices of the players involved where no one is Doing It Wrong*.
*For the most part. Issues like Jerk DMs, Jerk Players, cheating, etc. muddy the waters, but for argument purposes of generic play, no one plays it Wrong.
Basically, this. If you're looking for a reason to play "D&D or any other system", then your reasons vary widely. If you're looking for a reason to play "D&D specifically", then your rational reasons narrow to something like: optimization, popularity/familiarity, ease of using setting-specific fluff. (There might be a few others but those are the main ones I can think of.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechanter
So one of the biggest differentiators for D&D is optimization, though that doesn't define as much of the total play experience for someone new to RPGs as a whole.
I am also curious about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by eggs
Optimization with regard to what? It can't be "with regard to max damage" or else everyone with access to a board like this would be taking the same race, class, feats, spell list, equipment list, etc--which they manifestly are not. Even if we say there's an element of "scissors paper rock" to the whole thing, there'd no reason to have as many options as there are.
In fact, someone who's feeling particularly grumpy :smallannoyed: might say that D&D has so many classes, variants, etc that it isinsanelyunreasonably difficult to optimize a character. You need lots of system knowledge just to know what books to look in to achieve something close to the concept you want. And even if you get an expert to make out a character for you, if you don't know how the action economy works and what the feats do for you and what creatures are vulnerable to what special attacks and when Attacks of Opportunity are available, etc etc, you're left saying "I swing my sword. Again. Just like last time. And, you know, the time before. Ain't this fun." It's hard to optimize a character. That can't be what D&D is about.
What it is about having fun.
For some people, "fun" does include optimizing, and gaining the system knowledge to optimize.
But for some people, that mass of system knowledge is actually an obstacle to having fun--we'd be playing Savage Worlds or HERO if we had a GM for them.
But as long as we can put aside worrying about the budget and politics and customers and fixing the car and, for a few hours, be the celebrated hero Kestrel Ghostkiller, relentlessly pursuing the evil magician until, battered but undaunted, we finally slide past the enemy's parry and make that last triumphant thrust home--as long as we can do that, D&D will be fun.
And that's what brings us back to the table next time.
I asked something along those lines once. The answer I got was that they played D&D when they wanted a certain type of game.Quote:
Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa
I still facepalm/headdesk/sigh whenever I see a thread with the title "How do I run a [non-D&D concept] game?" in the 3.5 section. :smallsigh:
yes, and that is actually a pretty bad thing, considering exactly how little marketing hasbro does (IE: There would be a 7fold magnitude ammount more advertizing if they installed a DnD toilet Seat in the MTG offices of WotC)Quote:
Originally Posted by eggs
Quote:
Originally Posted by toapat
I suppose that would be a useful place for a sphere of annihilation, though there is concern of someone trying to move it. An alternative is to use a bag of holding to be cleaned once a week or so, but beware of having used a bag of devouring instead!
I think that is an important part of it, I am by no means an expert but before starting to look at the playground the only other RPG I knew beside D&D was Vampire, and mostly for it's particular setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by eggs
D&D has some of the most well know settings like Dragonlance and FR, novels, movies (as bas as they were).