First round: Avengers at their strength in the Avengers
Second round: at their strength in Endgame
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First round: Avengers at their strength in the Avengers
Second round: at their strength in Endgame
Presumably, with reference to Endgame, you mean still just the original team of Tony, Cap, Thor, Hulk, Black Widow and Hawkeye as they are at that time, excluding later additions to the team like Strange, Captain Marvel and Wanda, who add to their power level significantly?
Hawkeye, BW and Cap don't really change that much in terms of their abilities over the course of the series. By Endgame, Hulk may be less of a liability, but he lacks the pure unfiltered rage that made him quite so effective as a combatant in the first place, so that probably balances out. Really then we're just looking at Tony and Thor in terms of power upgrade between Assemble and Endgame.
As far as the D&D party goes, the key questions have to be whether they have a wizard, and whether they have a cleric. If so I think there's a natural cap probably around level 13 where the Avengers will inherently struggle, just because of the potency of the spells available to the D&D party.
There's also the problem that the Avengers are pretty top-heavy in terms of their own power level, whereas the D&D party probably won't be, or at least not to the same extent. If the party can isolate Thor (in particular) and Tony and take them out of the fight even briefly (say, with a Forcecage or Hold Person) or, worse, dominate them, the rest of the Avengers look a lot more vulnerable.
Overall, I think it would depend as much on tactics and party composition as the party's level, and that has so many permutations I can't face getting into it...
The Avengers seem like they can probably make multiple attacks a round, so they're at least 5th level.
It's easy to imagine The Hulk or Thor using just one of their attacks to break through a brick/ concrete wall or Wall of Stone, so they can probably reliably hit AC 15 for over- sheesh 180 damage? Uh, am I sure I want to compare modern walls to a magic wall of solid stone? Tough call.
We see most of the party fall to mind control either in Avengers or Age of Ultron, so their wisdom saves probably aren't exceptional. Hawkeye manages to adjust easily, so it's unlikely Scarlet Witch hit them with a huge DC.
This is a hard call, but I don't think I would feel safe going after the Avengers with their heavy hitters until around Tier 3. Maybe by then tanks could survive the damage until controllers can contain Hulk and Thor. Cap and Ironman might be a challenge for later in Tier 2 with Hawkeye and Black Widow a challenge for earlier in Tier 2.
As a mildly unrelated note, could the Avengers take the OOTS? Team Evil? The Linear Guild? The Vector Legion?
not too sure what category this thread goes into
Are we talking a socially gaming D&D party, a relatively serious set, or an outright exploitative powergamers?
If the latter, a single high level wizard could neutralize the lot of them with the right preparation.
I don't think there are any group in the stickverse that poses a threat however. Only the casters are meaningful opponents and OOTS casters tend to use non-optimal spells.
Yes, Avengers are much much stronger than D&D fighter types. Compare Roy's "frost giant" strength is enough to knock around some big monsters, but Captain Marvel can singlehandedly down a city-sized spaceship in one blow.
Only by keeping the Avengers on permanent lock down would wny D&D group win, but plenty of save or suck spells do that and that's not even getting creative.
Considering the Hulk has an AC of like 40 and a strength and con far above 20, as well as a speed of above sixty and probably a few bonus attacks per turn, I think he alone outclasses any boss in the rulebooks physically. He's got a low wisdom and int, but Iron man has suits that nearly match the strength and endurance of the hulk while retaining his already high intelligence and charisma. I've also got to assume that Cap's got a Wis of at least 30. Thor's about on par with the Hulk, but with an even higher AC and higher cha, wis, and int.
Hawkeye is a mid-level ranger, and Black Widow is a mid-level rogue. I don't know why they're on the same team with these dudes.
I just noticed the OP talked about the original "Avengers Team." So Tony has no nanotech, their heavy hitters are Hulk and Thor, and the only caster is the villain.
From the way Loki works as a villain for all of them by himself without using very high level magic, I take it that it isn't much of a contest. Still my basic analysis applies. Fighter types are outmatched by the Avengers: Tony's armor's forcefield defends from explosive missiles, Hawkeye's trick arrows can disable the entire group, Cap' America is probably on par with the fighters but with an artifact strength shield and giving him absurd AC and a mid-range weapon. Thor & Hulk have physical stats that put them on deity level. Natasha's skills are not well established but clearly at least mid-level rogue and above.
However, its established the Avengers are vulnerable to magic. A mid-level caster is all that's necessary. The OOTS could do this.
Loki doesn't actually hit anyone with spells, the only one he uses is tricking Thor with a mirror image. And Loki outclasses everyone but Thor and Hulk in raw physical strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddish Mage
As much as I wanna wave the flag of Trickery Cleric pride, I'd only say Loki is competitive with Cap rather than outclassing him. I'm not sure how strong the suit makes Tony, but since Loki probably spent more time learning how to fight, he could probably best him even if they were close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devonix
Also, I just realized: What edition of D&D are we talking about? The Avengers in their movies would be a different challenge to parties of different editions. A 3.x group could walk over them at low level with their d2 crusaders, pun-puns, and other stuff.
The question is open-ended. What we really need is someone to trot out the party and explain how it curve stomps the Avengers. It remains questionable whether we treat Avengers as high level or low level in the particular D&D system, what initiative count they would have, and whether they have high saving throw bonuses or no saving throw at all. Also, open ended is who gets the surprise round.Quote:
Originally Posted by No brains
The right exploit or combo of exploits makes all this irrelevant. Pun-Pun would slaughter the whole team single handedly regardless of which Avengers (also Thanos, Ego, and anyone else in the entire MCU). This page is full of characters that could pull off the job in different editions.
I think even a fairly low-level D&D party could take Avengers-period Hulk effectively out of the equation with illusion spells or save-or-suck will-save spells. Banner might have a significant Will save but the Hulk doesn't. Hulk in that era has difficulty distinguishing between friend and foe and is almost pitifully easy to distract. (I suppose this does change over the course of the movie, but it's still a problem for the team in Age of Ultron).
Well, Tony in Avengers was able to go toe-to-toe with Thor, so he's probably a match for Loki too in physical terms at least.Quote:
I'm not sure how strong the suit makes Tony, but since Loki probably spent more time learning how to fight, he could probably best him even if they were close.
I'm not sure what the justification for this is, unless it's just to give him an absurdly high will save. But even in that case I'm not even sure that's justified. He didn't display any particular resistance to the passive effects of Loki's sceptre in Avengers or to Scarlet Witch's mind-control magic in Age of Ultron. His will save would certainly be high but not ridiculous.Quote:
I've also got to assume that Cap's got a Wis of at least 30.
Does Thor have a high AC or just a buttload of hit points? I'm also not sure about his wisdom and/or intelligence, certainly at the time of Avengers. He's naive, reckless and easily fooled, and if not stupid then so intellectually lazy that his intelligence isn't being used for anything productive. While his character arc sees him sharpen up by the time of Ragnarok and Infinity War, he regresses thereafter, and in Endgame he is still, in practice, the stupidest member of the team.Quote:
Thor's about on par with the Hulk, but with an even higher AC and higher cha, wis, and int.
If it's of any help, Thor has stats in a D&D book - AD&D's Deities & Demigods.
He is a 20 Fighter/10 Druid/3 Bard, Psionic Abilities Rank VI. He has with 399 hitpoints and 80% magic resistance, a modified Strength of 48, Damage Immunity against anything less than +3 weapons and if anyone tries to use a Lightning Bolt spell within his sight then he gets to pick it's target as a free action.
Mjolnir is a +5 Warhammer that does 10d10 damage, can be used as a thrown weapon with a range of up to 200 yards and casts Power Word: Stun in a 10ft radius of it's target when it strikes, can only be used as a weapon by people with STR26 or higher, and allows the wielder to cast up to 100 dice of Lightning Bolts per day.
And this is while Odin is still alive (he has stats in the same book, too!) so he's even more powerful than this by the end of Thor: Ragnarok.
He's basically equivalent to a level ~40 creature with some gnarly magical items, so plot a D&D party appropriately. I think it reasonable to say that anyone who thinks they are going to fight him REALLY isn't going to be worried by the likes of Hawkeye, Black Widow or even Captain America, who is more or less a low-level Fighter/Monk with some useful racial abilities in comparison. :smalltongue:
I don't see the justification for stating out Thor like the D&D Deity that bears the same name. Clearly his stats are different, Mjolnir has different (and more diverse artifact like) powers in the MCU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith
Also if we're going to the closest D&D analogue starting with Thor: Hulk would be a Titan, Hawkeye a very high level fighter with bow specialization (since he supposedly is the best shot), Black Widow would have to be very high level to break into all the places, and yes, even Captain America has to have absurd skills to use his shield like a boomerang...given it doesn't actually have magic return to sender features (that means he just always throws it that way!). Ironman's armor is definite artifact territory.
Even with all that, Pun-Pun kills the party. Even so 2d Crusader has infinite attack. Infinite Stat Druid can come along, etc etc.
However, it is interesting to imagine how plain you can get to a mid-level adventurer party and still pull off a win against such mightily stated Avengers.
Avengers for the Thanos fight Endgame though is a problem for that problem. At this battle, the Avengers included Doctor Strange, who if he is going to get a D&D analogue its going to be an epic level wizard! Captain Marvel is also deity level. Also Shuri is probably some sort of wizard or artificer....oh if we are counting Shuri we have to count the rest of the army that joined in for that fight as well.
Note the upgrades: Prof. Hulk, all that Hulk strength, but Banner level mental stats! Ironman is using nano tech. Spider-man has joined and is using the superior-spidermen suit.
You can still cheese them (I'm assuming you don't give the Avengers any exploits). Infinite-Stat characters will do as infinite-stat characters can. There are spells and tactics that don't allow saving throws, that cannot really be fought. However, a more reasonable party can't just use save or suck tactics even if reasonably optimized.
I mean, that is the entire premise of the joke, to be honest. He's Thor, God of Thunder, and Thor, God of Thunder has stats in D&D. I didn't think that was overly elaborate, but here we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddish Mage
[Citation Needed] :smalltongue:Quote:
Clearly his stats are different...
Differences from D&D...hmm let’s see...I bet the D&D one is a redhead :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith
How about: MCU Thor uses Mjolnir to fly, can produce electricity on his own, has an artificial eye, wields a “god-killing” axe and has a belly.
Oh and MCU Thor doesn’t actually have divine abilities such as granting cleric spells. I suppose that’s a big one.
I recall MCU Thor got locked down by Hawkeye’s flash arrow and Scarlet Witch’s fear spell. That’s a fairly big deal for our fight.
He's also statted in 3E's Dieties and Demigods (page 192).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith
I think a big question is how high level the d&d party has to be not to get speed-blitzed. MCU Thor may be "slowdinson", but he can keep up with Cap and Ironman and they've both demonstrated some insane reflexes. Tank missile dodge, everything Cap has ever shielded...
Ain't no way his AC is anywhere near that high. Hell, I'd be surprised if it was past the teens. AC is about whether you can hit him or not. He's easy to hit. It's damage that's the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maloney
.... hulk's ac is around 40. AC doesn't just mean "to hit", but also "to inflict noticeable damage", in so many words. It's why most DMs I know when dealing with non agile but high AC monsters say when describing attacks things like glancing blows, or not enough weight put behind the attack or, or your attack couldn't find purchase in the monstrous hide, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
I'd argue that. A vampire, for instance, has damage reduction, which means you could beat the AC, hit, yet inflict zero noticeable damage. Glancing blows make sense for armor deflecting weapons, or dragon scales being too tough to pierce, but it's just fluff. You could have Hulk's skin count as natural armor for the AC boost, but you could also say he just has a huge damage reduction, and any damage reduced makes him angrier. Stat-wise, that would make his abilities synergize well, instead of attacks just "missing" his AC and him then getting angrier for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyDraconus
The Crusader class in 3.5 actually has a mechanism like this - delayed damage pool (a certain amount of damage gets transferred to this pool, then applied to the Crusader in the next turn) which makes traits like regeneration and Damage Reduction more effective by spreading damage over time or allowing Damage Reduction to effectively work twice, and then Furious Counterstrike which gives an attack bonus based on how much damage is in the delayed pool. Would make a workable D&D base for Hulk, you'd basically just need to uncap the damage pool..Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
Huh, that sounds like it'd work remarkably well for Hulk. Toss in a wild-magic-like system so that the hulking out is harder to control and toss him in a RP-heavy campaign you have a pretty good, if incredibly basic, system for the guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tyckspoon
I don't think using Pun-Pun is fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddish Mage
Pun-Pun at the theoretical limit is like a person writing fanfiction. As in granting himself abilities that aren't in d&d.
Armor bonus (natural and equipment based) are almost certainly just attacks not penetrating rather than attacks just being avoided. Like a dragon’s AC is trying to penetrate its hide not it dodging the attacks. Hulk probably has a ridiculous amount of natural armor or a ridiculous amount of damage reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
If that were the case, then Dexterity wouldn't be the primary stat for your AC it would be Constitution. AC is damage avoidance, through either the damage hitting you and not penetrating, or your ability to move out of the way through natural reflexes or skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chen
Uh yes? Thats basically what I said. Armor bonus to AC is the lack of penetrating part. Same with natural armor. Things like Dex bonus, dodge bonus, circumstance bonus and such probably are the avoiding hits type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devonix
Damage reduction is more things hitting and not giving a **** isn't it? I.e. the vampire is stabbed right through but doesn't care. I think the Hulk would.
Use Frenzied Berserker for that. Might require some odd multiclassing. But basically, when hurt or angry, a frenzied berserker attacks the nearest target, even if it is a friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peelee
Okay, so once a party can inflict saves rather than worrying about AC, then they can defeat the Avengers. :smalltongue:
They bounce around a lot. Thanos can trade punches with Hulk in his intro, but can also trade punches with Cap without pulping him. The Avengers levels differ depending on who they're fighting.