Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Sir_Leorik
"Unaligned" is an actual D&D Alignment from 4E. It was used as a catch-all category for True Neutral, Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Neutral in 4E.
This is a common misunderstanding resulting from trying to mash the 3e alignment system into the 4e alignment system. In 3e, an alignment is a quality all characters posses, and is the result of their behaviors and beliefs. In 4e, an alignment is an in-character choice; an explicit statement on the character's part that they are going to attempt to behave in a specific manner. Any character who has not explicitly decided to devote themselves to an alignment is unaligned.
Turning to OotS for examples, Belkar and Haley(before the party reunited) would probably both be unaligned in 4e. Neither of them had really made a big decision on how to behave; they just act as comes naturally to them. Contrast Roy, who went to Fighter College specifically because he wanted to protect the weak, and Redcloak, who partially defines himself by his decision to oppose the forces of Good.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Wardog
He might even be able to grow up on his own, through his own emotional development.
It's already established that your age in the afterlife depends on how you see yourself (Eugene being a "grumpy old man" even when he was alive and physically young).
And (at least by implication) people can mentally change and develop in the afterlife, or else they would be effectively be in stasis and and unable to learn anything about anyone or thing there.
So a combination of "learning through play", being taught by or otherwise interacting with people, and natural curiosity could mean that Eric mentally matures, and "physically" matures with it.
We should also point out that Roy was explicitly told that he only looks like he did upon his death because that's where his mind was stuck, and his appearance would change eventually.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Grey_Wolf_c
Off the top of my head, the following side questions are still open to being discussed:
- What happens to non-heroic people?
- What happens to souls in Arcadia, in the long run?
- What happens if the closest relative to the dead baby changes alignments before they die?
- Should we distinguish animal-like True Neutral alignment from druid-like true neutral alignment, and if so, what should we call it?
Threads are allowed to diverge naturally from the original topic.
Grey Wolf
Agreed. But what answer are we looking for?
- Not one from the story. We already have all of that we're going to get.
- Not one from the rules. They don't cover it.
- Not one from any other source. We're not allowed to discuss that.
The only thing I can think of left to discuss is what people have done in their own D&D world, and nobody's answering that.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Jay R
Not one from the rules. They don't cover it.
Complete Divine covers "what happens to souls, in the long run" - usually, it's "merge with plane".
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Vinyadan
A very satisfying explanation is the one given by Dante in Purgatory 16.85-90. If the metaphysical forces which give life are good (I don't know if it is so in D&D), it can be assumed that the soul will wish to return to them, and that remaining detached from them as it grows and forms a new psychology will bring it to form new affections to other things, which, in time, may pull it away from good and cause them to lean towards evil.
Of course, this is only a partial reading of Dante's message, given that he followed a religious doctrine with implications not to be discussed here, but this philosophical point of view can be extrapolated as such.
Oh well, I hadn't read this.
To me it sounds kinda similar to Dante's ideas, only expressed through physical D&D concepts instead of metaphysical ones.
"metaphysical forces which give life" == "the positive plane" in standard D&D cosmology.
Strictly speaking, it doesn't have an alignment. In practice, it is tied quite closely to good (and from recent strips it looks like Vampires (and likely other intelligent undead) are likely "always evil" after tying themselves to the negative plane). I think we should just admit it is good.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
BenjCano
I actually thought about that. At first I was supremely amused, because I thought the answer could possibly be Lawful Good characters who failed to measure up, and were working in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right as straw men in sort of a "work-release" program.
Then I applied the same logic to the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands and thought to myself..."Wait a minute! That would mean that the celestials are pimping!" And it troubled me. :eek:
This doesn't necessarily follow. The people in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right have a job which involves losing debates repeatedly. The very structure of the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right involves it being extremely enjoyable for one person and sucking for the other, which is why the question of who else is in it even comes in in the first place. It's fun had at somebody else's expense.
Meanwhile, everyone going to the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands is going for the same thing. The enjoyment doesn't come at anyone's expense, as it's a cooperative venture between two people to advance both of them. Thus, there's no problem.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
I figured that the people at the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right were either artificial constructs created specifically to lose arguments or people who had advanced far enough up the mountain that they were willing to lose arguments on purpose to aid the progress of practitioners who aren't as far along as they are. Same with the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands, what if there's a Lawful Good person with such a repellent personality that they can't get any, even in Heaven? You'd need some 'house prospects' to make sure it's Heaven for everyone there.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Knaight
This doesn't necessarily follow. The people in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right have a job which involves losing debates repeatedly. The very structure of the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right involves it being extremely enjoyable for one person and sucking for the other, which is why the question of who else is in it even comes in in the first place. It's fun had at somebody else's expense.
If the being that has the job of being the always-loser is not another regular soul, but one of the divine beings of the plane, that being could easily be one that positively enjoys always losing debates, either because as a being of pure law and goodness it sees the fulfillment of its duty/job (ie to lose) to be maximally satisfying, or its psychology is such that it simply enjoys intense intellectual discussion regardless of who "wins".
Basically, always losing at a debate sucks of humans and those with human psychology. But there is no reason why Celestia needs to employ such beings for that job.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Knaight
Meanwhile, everyone going to the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands is going for the same thing. The enjoyment doesn't come at anyone's expense, as it's a cooperative venture between two people to advance both of them. Thus, there's no problem.
The problem with that line of thought is that, in real life, even if we only consider heterosexual hookups, there are way more men interested in no-strings attached sex than there are women interested in having it with them.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
BenjCano
The problem with that line of thought is that, in real life, even if we only consider heterosexual hookups, there are way more men interested in no-strings attached sex than there are women interested in having it with them.
Thaaaaaat's neither provable nor anything but a stereotype.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
Although it does raise the point that Heaven would also need something like lg-harmony for all the Lawful Good souls who'd rather have relationships than casual flings.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BenjCano
I actually thought about that. At first I was supremely amused, because I thought the answer could possibly be Lawful Good characters who failed to measure up, and were working in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right as straw men in sort of a "work-release" program.
Then I applied the same logic to the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands and thought to myself..."Wait a minute! That would mean that the celestials are pimping!" And it troubled me. :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Knaight
This doesn't necessarily follow. The people in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right have a job which involves losing debates repeatedly. The very structure of the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right involves it being extremely enjoyable for one person and sucking for the other, which is why the question of who else is in it even comes in in the first place. It's fun had at somebody else's expense.
Meanwhile, everyone going to the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands is going for the same thing. The enjoyment doesn't come at anyone's expense, as it's a cooperative venture between two people to advance both of them. Thus, there's no problem.
The most likely scenario in the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands is that a group of Archons and Devas are assigned to work as matchmakers or "wingmen" (or "wingwomen"), helping the Petitioners meet someone they're interested in hooking up with for a one-night stand. The Devas and Celestials probably can keep track of which Petitioner has hooked up with who, other Devas and Archons serve drinks, they hire Lawful Good Factotums from the Society of Sensation to play music and they order food from the Kosher Sushi place in Sigil's Lady's Ward. That way they ensure everyone has a good time.
The guys at the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right are Outsiders created by the essence of the first layer of Mt. Celestia. If anyone is interested in a real debate, some Lawful Good Factotums from the Fraternity of Order are invited over, and asked not to discover loopholes in the fabric of reality.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Loreweaver15
Thaaaaaat's neither provable nor anything but a stereotype.
Seconding this.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Loreweaver15
Thaaaaaat's neither provable nor anything but a stereotype.
Also, it's questionably applicable. There are a few key differences here.
- Zero pregnancy risk. None.
- Guarantee of meeting only someone you get along with.
- Removal of various risks.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
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Originally Posted by
Loreweaver15
Thaaaaaat's neither provable nor anything but a stereotype.
For evidence, I point to the fact that Grindr exists. For those that don't know, Grindr is a smartphone app that allows homosexual and bisexual men to find casual sexual encounter. But there is no similar app for homosexual or bisexual women, and there's a tremendous gender gap in straight hookup apps in which men are over-represented.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
Aside from letting people know there's a gap in the market for same-sex female hookup apps, I find it difficult to imagine this conversation anywhere positive.
So, back to the services provided in Lawful Good heaven. Since there's a Dungeon of Monsters That Are Just Strong Enough to Really Challenge You, I presume that Lawful Good heaven does have some way of providing services that don't come from celestials or fellow Lawful Good souls. If they can import or create monsters to fill a dungeon, they could do the same thing to create People Who Will Lose Arguments To You or People Who Want To Hit That, That Being You and Hit Being Sex.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BenjCano
For evidence, I point to the fact that Grindr exists. For those that don't know, Grindr is a smartphone app that allows homosexual and bisexual men to find casual sexual encounter. But there is no similar app for homosexual or bisexual women, and there's a tremendous gender gap in straight hookup apps in which men are over-represented.
A large representation of men to women does not necessarily mean anything. For example, Ashley Madison reports that it's member base is mostly male (by flat numbers), but female users are those who use it for the longer lengths of time and sink more money into it.
And that's all I say and I'm more or less done. I agree this conversation won't go anywhere positive most likely.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BenjCano
The problem with that line of thought is that, in real life, even if we only consider heterosexual hookups, there are way more men interested in no-strings attached sex than there are women interested in having it with them.
If we're going to play with common stereotypes, we have to process the entire stereotype. Let's stipulate the probability that far more men do that. But does it follow that more men who will eventually get into a Lawful Good heaven do that?
The stereotype of a male pickup artist in a bar is not Lawful Good; he's more Neutral Sleazy.
Re: Regarding the Moral State of Young Souls
Back to the actual topic!
I always thought that they have a projection on whether the kid will turn out to be good or evil. After all, they have unlimited "Deva" Power in Celestia. Furthermore, a projection chart was used to determine Belkar's Projected Evilness, it stands to reason that the Deva's took Baby Eric's most possible future prospect, and based his final resting place upon it! Furthermore, as a child/toddler, it's not as though he is going to mess up the whole of celestia.