Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Tau - A very simple army that likes to stand on the spot and shoot things, and could quite happily ignore half of the rules in the book if they had their way, This can work to a new Player's advantage - against a considerate opponent you can play entire games and get used to a lot of rules, before having to worry about introducing more - or it can be a horrific learning curve against an enemy that is... less helpful. Quite easy to model and paint, however, and one of the few armies whose Battleset doesn't need any additional units added before it can be used as a legal army.
Recommendation: Mid

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What's this I hear about Tau being static (stand still and shoot)? That's utter lunacy. Non-mobile Tau die like no other thing. What Tau excel at, is mobile firepower. IG outshoots them, Eldar outmaneuvers them, but they can counter by outmaneuver the IG and then blasting them away (kinda like how an Eldar would do it), or could at least until IG got a new codex, and they can outshoot Eldar (in theory).

Sure, Tau has some quite nice and quite static units (Broadsides, I'm looking at you), but most units are much better when made mobile. Firewarriros by themselves are so-so (until they die because someone looked angrily at them), but put them in a devilfish and they're much better (on no small part because devilfishes by themselves are great). And so on, I should probably cut my rant short here...

Taking into account as well the amount of extra mobile units tau have I can only confirm this. Tau jetpacks allow one to fly over cover, fire and fly back in a single turn. Tau are very much guerilla in that aspect.

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Originally Posted by FlyingScanian

What Tau excel at, is mobile firepower. IG outshoots them, Eldar outmaneuvers them, but they can counter by outmaneuver the IG and then blasting them away (kinda like how an Eldar would do it) or could at least until IG got a new codex

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A Tau army can outshoot an IG army if it's a 'Veteran' army. Which, most usually are, given the real-world currency cost it takes to field Infantry Platoons. But, IG are largely a static army and have no real Assault unit unless it's cribbed from the Daemonhunters Codex. Or you use an Inquisitor to get an an Assassin. Which, is more than it's worth.

...Tau have one or two Assault units. Use them to your advantage. IG don't really have a counter-assault strategy...Unless "Throw lots and lots of men at it." counts as a valid Assault strategy; Which it doesn't. Any Guardsman in Assault is a Guardsman not shooting.

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...and they [Tau] can outshoot Eldar (in theory).

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A shooty Tau army will cut a shooty Eldar army to ribbons. Eldar aren't as maneuverable as they used to be. In 3rd/4th Ed, Eldar Vehicles could move, shoot, move. Not anymore. Fire Prisms are sitting ducks. That's all Tau territory now. Eldar Jetbikes can still do it, but - from what I've seen - Jetbikes seem to be less common than they're made out to be.

Eldar's primary strength is that they're a balanced list; They have a unit for everything. The downside to Eldar, is, if you skimp out on one of those units, you'll find yourself missing something. The two exceptions are;
Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions
Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks.
At least one option from either category is almost needed in just about any Eldar army. Although Wave Serpents decrease the need for the second. But, I still love my SHs anyway.

And Fire Warriors are no less fragile than Guardians or Guardsmen. And, since the Tau Codex is the only one I don't have, aren't Pulse Rifles totally awesome?

Tune in next time, as tomorrow I'll be discussing Imperial Guard Tanks and other armoured beasties.
(If someone wants to put their two cents in before then, feel free.)

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Not to mention low-medium price in terms of real-world currency, and come at a high points cost. One of the few armies that is so. But, this also pays off for the reasons described. Marines don't need that many guys.

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I thought I mentioned that. Thank you for clarifying, sir :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Orks are not exclusively a close-combat army anymore. You can make an effective shooty army. I've done it before. The 5th Ed Orks have shooting that works, even at BS 2. The only dedicated assault troops in the Ork list are Kommados, Burna Boyz and Stormboyz.

Orks work on the Rule of LOL. If you're having fun, you can't lose.

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Be honest - it is more fun when they are, though? :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The good news is, those metal models cost a lot of points or come in small unit sizes, so you wont need too many of them. They're not quite as bad tactically as Wraith makes them out to be. Probably the easiest army to 'balance'. The only way to lose I've found with Eldar, is if your opponent is playing a super-dedicated army when you've gone for balance. Luckily, with the Troops-uppage in 5th, most armies these days should be balanced. With the exception of Tyranids and probably Tau.

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You're right, I am perhaps being too harsh on Eldar, but only because I care. :smallwink: They are my army of choice, and despite a few dabbles in other races they have been for over a decade, and the previous post is 50% "I want you to play Eldar well, because it makes Eldar look good" and 50% "I'm just bitter because my Codex is 5 years old and I want new shiney things" :smallbiggrin:

Having said that, the 'fashion' where I play IS to take heavily dedicated armies, usually in favour of massive long-ranged firepower. I can't speak for other areas, but right now the ability to guess what other Players have written into their Army Lists would help me win far more than a handful of lucky dice :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

One thing Wraith doesn't mention, is that Witch and Daemon hunters are effectively the same army, and you can mix'n'match most units. Not only that, but can be included in other Space Marine or Imperial Guard armies. I prefer the Witch Hunters. Daemonhunters Codex is way out of whack since the reprints of IG and SMs.

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Going by Codex they are 2 different armies, which is what I was trying to convey, but by and large you're correct. Another good clarification well made.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

But, Daemonhunters are cool. It's easy to fall head-over-heels in love with them.

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Quoted. For truth, no less.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I'd say, if you really want Daemonhunters (you don't, trust me) get yourself a SM, IG or WH army and include the only good units; Grey Knight Hero, Terminators and Teleport Squads. Everything else in the army is now over-points'd and therefore underpowered.

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I'd actually say "Buy ordinary Space Marines and paint them to look like Daemonhunters" too. $25 for 5 models does not, for a fun army, make.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

(remember when Librarians could win the game by themselves? No. Seriously. That's your list; One Librarian vs. 1500 points of any army you choose)

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In that incarnation, him taking Terminator Armour was also optional as I recall. Though a lucky Vortex Grenade soetimes evened things out a bit. Good times!

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Originally Posted by FlyingScanian

What's this I hear about Tau being static (stand still and shoot)? That's utter lunacy. Non-mobile Tau die like no other thing. What Tau excel at, is mobile firepower.

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To be fair, I don't play Tau, and the guy I know who does isn't very good at it. In our first game together with 2500pt armies, my MECH Eldar annihilated him to the last man in 5 turns, and in return, he killed something like 7 Wraithguard and half a Wraithlord.

All the while, telling me that his was the best way to play a Tau army. :smallconfused:

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I thought I mentioned that. Thank you for clarifying, sir :smallsmile:

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It's true. You did mention it. I should learn to stop skimming posts until the parts I like. :smalltongue:

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Be honest - it is more fun when [Orks are Assault-orientated], though? :smallbiggrin:

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It is. Although, a Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun is riots of fun. Especially if you have two of them. But a Warboss can go toe-to-toe with a Hive Tyrant and come out on top and for about a hundred less points...So... :smallamused:

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You're right, I am perhaps being too harsh on Eldar, but only because I care. :smallwink: They are my army of choice, and despite a few dabbles in other races they have been for over a decade, and the previous post is 50% "I want you to play Eldar well, because it makes Eldar look good" and 50% "I'm just bitter because my Codex is 5 years old and I want new shiney things" :smallbiggrin:

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Hey, I like Eldar too. One of my least-favourite lists (of the ones I actually have, so 'least-favourite' isn't that bad). But, you made them sound bad. A 'take all comers' Eldar list can actually take all comers.

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Having said that, the 'fashion' where I play IS to take heavily dedicated armies, usually in favour of massive long-ranged firepower. I can't speak for other areas, but right now the ability to guess what other Players have written into their Army Lists would help me win far more than a handful of lucky dice

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Well, here in Australia, we have a thing called 'Composition Score' when we play our tournaments. Basically, if I hate your list, or I think it's cheesy, I get to mark you down. Although, this is done with mediation. Apparently we're the only country in the world that uses Comp Scores (in addition to regular Painting/Battle/etc Scores of course).

We, in our club also don't believe much in Dedicated Lists, because, you don't know who you're facing or what army they'll play. Of course, if you have one or two regular opponents, dedicated lists are fine.

EDIT: Providing money isn't an issue and you can get any unit you want, against a regular opponent (who knows what they're doing) your win:loss ratio shouldn't deviate much from 50:50.

In a Tournament 'all-out Assault' units get butchered, mostly because people haven't realised that you can't consolidate into other units anymore :smallamused:

And, in a Tournament, not every battle will be Annihilation (or, as it's more commonly known; Let's Just Kill Each Other), which means that you need Troops. And, not only that, but you need them to survive to the end of the game. Five-Man Lascannon teams just don't cut it anymore. If only because you can't even use them anymore. But, even if you could they wouldn't work.
Six-man Razorback teams are still viable though. :smallbiggrin:

...That being said, any army which has Infiltrating Troop Choices tend to do very well. If Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders had Assault ability, they'd be...Too good in fact. Also, Genestealers. That is all. :smallamused:
(I should stop saying good things about Tyranids if I don't want new players to play them)

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I'd actually say "Buy ordinary Space Marines and paint them to look like Daemonhunters" too. $25 for 5 models does not, for a fun army, make.

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But regular Marines aren't awesome models (just because Grey Knights are metal, doesn't make them bad sculpts), and don't come with awesome Halberd and Storm Bolter action.

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In that incarnation, him taking Terminator Armour was also optional as I recall. Though a lucky Vortex Grenade sometimes evened things out a bit. Good times!

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Key word there is sometimes. :smallamused: 5th Ed. Librarians have Gate of Infinity and Vortex of Doom back now (but Gate counts as moving, and Vortex is 'Heavy' :smallfrown:). So, Librarians are almost getting back to their 'funky stage' again. Pity they can't take more than two powers (i.e; Any power they wanted) like they used to - or use like, eight powers a turn. :smallwink:
EDIT: Gate + Smite works very well though.

...For people who don't know what I'm talking about; I'm not kidding. A Librarian was all you needed. These days, Librarians are just really, really good (3rd/4th Ed ones were still pretty bad though). But, still not on par with how they used to be. If you've ever played Chaos Gate, and your Librarian wasn't MVP every single map, you were doing something wrong, or choosing crap powers.

A properly tooled and well-used Herald of Tzeentch (Chaos Daemons) comes pretty close to being a 2nd Ed. Librarian.

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All the while, telling me that his was the best way to play a Tau army. :smallconfused:

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Then it's only fair that you stomped him into the curb. Good job.
*looks around for a High-Five smily...*

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Hey, I like Eldar too. One of my least-favourite lists (of the ones I a6ctually have, so 'least-favourite' isn't that bad). But, you made them sound bad. A 'take all comers' Eldar list can actually take all comers.

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Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be a Take On All Comers Eldar list at, say... 2000 points? I can imagine such a thing, but then I play a very unlikely sort of army and I often lose sense of what constitutes 'sensible' in such circumstances...

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

*Tournament and Rules*

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The Tournament rules are the same in the UK, which seems to have the same problems and concerns as Australia, howeve I was referring more to casual play.
Of my most regular opponents, I go against Necrons (with a Monolith even in 1000 points games...), Terminator-and-Havoc heavy Chaos Marines, Static Tau and a Deathwing Space Marine Army.

That's an army composed entirely of 40 Terminators and a Special Character, backed up by 3 Vindicators. Building an army that can find anything to shoot at in the first turn, and then survive beyond the 3rd, is... problematic.... :smalleek:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

But regular Marines aren't awesome models (just because Grey Knights are metal, doesn't make them bad sculpts), and don't come with awesome Halberd and Storm Bolter action.

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On the absolute contrary! I'm very much on the 'Metal' side of the 'Which are better, metal or plastic models' argument, and I covet my lovingly painted 1500pts Daemonhunters army (all 16 models of it....) but it's really depressing to know that it's cheaper to buy an entire box of Space Marines AND an entire box of Bretonnian Knights AND a box of Empire Halbardiers, in order to convert your own and still end up with more models for your money at the end of it.... :smallyuk:

All-comers eldar would have to incorporate a variety of aspect warriors, basically. They have at least one troop that can handle pretty much any kind of enemy. At 2000 points, you should be able to get scorpions, fire dragons, dark reapers and a few others in. Add bikes for point taking and snipers for annoyance, then take a few generally useful things, like wraithlords, swooping hawks or the like.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

That's an army composed entirely of 40 Terminators and a Special Character, backed up by 3 Vindicators. Building an army that can find anything to shoot at in the first turn, and then survive beyond the 3rd, is... problematic.... :smalleek:

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40 Terminators, Special Character and 3 Vindicators? How is that legal? Firstly it seems to lack Troop Choices, secondly it appears to have four Elite choices... :smallconfused:
Are there some special Deathwing rules I am not aware of that allow to take Terminators as Troop choices, or what?

I taught that cheese was removed last codex update. If not they are by far the most power full troop choice out there I would imagine.

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Originally Posted by Winterwind

40 Terminators, Special Character and 3 Vindicators? How is that legal? Firstly it seems to lack Troop Choices, secondly it appears to have four Elite choices... :smallconfused:
Are there some special Deathwing rules I am not aware of that allow to take Terminators as Troop choices, or what?

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Yeah, Deathwing can take terminators as troops. I think they have to take a special character to do it though.

I happened to loose to a list like that a week ago. Just barely though because all I had to do to draw was get a single jetbike on an objective that some banshees cleared for him... he rolled a 1 on his dangerous terrain test and went away so I had no chance to actually hold the objective.
It also didn't help that he made the first 15 or so saves on his terminators, including 2 5+ invuls from AP1 sniper shots.

...gracious goodness. :smalleek:
I'm noone to play just to win, and I don't mind going up against overwhelming odds, either, but seriously? If somebody set up that against me, I think I'd just say "You win. I hope you are happy." and go look for somebody else to play with.

I suspect terminators still have a high point cost. I might be willing to try that, actually.

That's only 40 guys and three vehicles in a 2500 point (I assume - 2225pts minimum without any upgrades of any kind) game. At that size I'd be bringing around 60 guys and ten or so vehicles with vanilla marines.

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Originally Posted by Eldan

I suspect terminators still have a high point cost. I might be willing to try that, actually.

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40 points per model, if those are the Terminators from the Space Marine codex (if those are some special Deathwing Terminators following other rules, they might resemble Chaos Space Marine Terminators which cost only 30 points per model, but have inferior default equipment).
...which brings me to another point, what kind of battle is that army meant for? I don't have my codex here at work, but I think Vindicators cost something like 130 points or so - with an Independent Character, this seems to be a fair bit more than 2000 points worth of army...

Hmmm, with 2000 points, I guess getting enough long range firepower to whittle those Termies down before they arrive, not to mention outmaneuvering them, might actually be quite feasible...

The particular list I played against was 1500, 3 units of 5 terminators, 1 chaplain/captain/something, the SC to make the terminators core, a LR, and a venerable dreadnought, there was also a tank with a TL-LC and 2 more LCs on it, don't remember what it was called though.

Had it not been for poor placement on one unit of jetbikes with autarch and some good rolling on saves he would have only had 1 scoring unit on the board after the 3rd turn and couldn't have won at all.

Everyone fails their saving throws when they have to take enough of them. Even 40 terminators die when they have to make several saving throws per model and turn. Get some pathfinders, warwalkers with double scatter lasers, banshees...

I'd say this can very well be done.

Deathwing termies have some ups and downs compared to normal terminators. They can only come in squads of five, only have the old storm shields and cyclone missile launchers, and are a bit more expensive per model. On the plus though they can mix and match assault and shooty in a squad, they're Fearless, and have Deathwing Assault (the rules of which were later cribbed for Daemonic and Drop Pod assaults). They also have to take Belial to unlock the Deathwing as troops, and besides that ability,he's kind of mediocre. But fighting an army like that's really not as bad as it seems; it's slow, has small squad sizes, and suffers from all the usual termie vulnerabilities.

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Originally Posted by Winterwind

40 points per model, if those are the Terminators from the Space Marine codex (if those are some special Deathwing Terminators following other rules, they might resemble Chaos Space Marine Terminators which cost only 30 points per model, but have inferior default equipment).
...which brings me to another point, what kind of battle is that army meant for? I don't have my codex here at work, but I think Vindicators cost something like 130 points or so - with an Independent Character, this seems to be a fair bit more than 2000 points worth of army...

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40 Terminators was an example of my paraphrasing (I haven't physically seen this army for over a year) and it was built using Codex: Dark Angels rather than the more recent Codex: Space Marines. It may even have been a 2500pt game, I simply can't remember.

Sufficed to say, I was exceptionally sceptical that it was legal at the time (technically it wasn't, not just because this was still during the era where you required an opponent's permission to use a Special Character but because I was convinced he'd added up the costs wrong) and I'm absolutely positive that it isn't now - having since checked, Deathwing Terminators are 45pts each, according to the book he was using.
Not to mention how badly the Codex was written. There's a piece of Dark Angels wargear that has the rule: "All units within 12" of [it] are Fearless". Someone forgot to add "friendly", and guess how much fun that can cause.... :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Not to mention how badly the Codex was written. There's a piece of Dark Angels wargear that has the rule: "All units within 12" of [it] are Fearless". Someone forgot to add "friendly", and guess how much fun that can cause.... :smallwink:

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Being Fearless with Terminators around seems rather disadvantageous to me. They cannot sweeping advance, so a non-fearless unit would disengage and make the termies a valid target for being shot at again, or at the very least get the assault bonus attack or a chance to get away, while a Fearless unit would just get additional wounds...

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be a Take On All Comers Eldar list at, say... 2000 points?

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Well, of the armies that I actually have, Eldar are my least-favourite. So, I haven't made a list for them in quite some time. Again, providing money isn't an issue, I think a good list would be;

Doom-Guider Farseer (as always :smallamused:)

Two units of {Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees}
Striking Scorpions have Infiltrate (or they should if you're any good), whilst Howling Banshees need a Wave Serpent. Pick which you like. I'm partial to SSs because Infiltrators are for winners. You could take one of each as well...But it's slightly less effective.
{Wraithguard or Fire Dragons}
Pick your favourite. Both eat tanks for breakfast. Both need Wave Serpents. Wraithguard also mow Infantry to bits. Especially if you have a Warlock attatched.

Two or three units of Bladestorming Dire Avengers.
Maximum Squad Size
Two or three units of Rangers/Pathfinders.
Units of 6-8
Jetbikes
Units of 5

If you take Swooping Hawks, get an Autarch as well.
If no Swooping Hawks (and no Autarch) - which saves a lot of points - get another Farseer.

Dark Reapers
x3 D-Cannons
Wraithlord

If I haven't gone over points, put in a Seer Council or Vypers. Also, if you have access to Storm Guardians (not many do), that would change the list ever so slightly. Unless the Avatar is your most favourite thing in existence to have ever lived, ever...Don't take one.

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I was referring more to casual play.

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Define 'casual play'? All the games at my club play by 'tournament rules', that is, Mission is rolled everytime. And it's variable what armies people will bring to the club. And, if you ever come to Club and waste everyone's time by spending 30-45 minutes to write up a list because you haven't come prepared...There's trouble (I have a story about that, actually).
The GW Store is more lenient in that regard. But, at the store all your (the Royal 'you') tend to be 12 year-olds playing Space Marines, or 16 year-olds playing 'Nids. :smallannoyed:

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That's an army composed entirely of 40 Terminators and a Special Character, backed up by 3 Vindicators. Building an army that can find anything to shoot at in the first turn, and then survive beyond the 3rd, is... problematic.... :smalleek:

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Spend your turns hiding. Terminators are slow. If you can't shoot them, they can't shoot you.

But if you know what army you're up against, you should be able to counter it. Terminators get eaten by Rangers, Wraithguard and D-Cannons. More Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons for sure. Wraithlords and Avatars ignore Terminator armour. Autarchs will do well. As will Seer Councils.

Vindicators are short range, and as such, Dark Reapers will eat them. As will Fast Vypers. I'm not a fan of Fire Prisms, but, they'll kick a Vindicator's a* too.

Then he should build a list that counters yours, then you his...etc. etc. Like I said before; If you have a regular opponent and you - and they - know what they're doing (and if money isn't an issue, or proxies are allowed) then win:loss shouldn't deviate much from 50:50.

Or, you could try doing what he does...40 Wraithguard, Prince Yriel and 9 D-Cannons. Be amazing!

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On the absolute contrary! I'm very much on the 'Metal' side of the 'Which are better, metal or plastic models' argument'

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On the contrary!? What? It seems like you're agreeing with me. :smallconfused: I said the Daemonhunters models were beautiful and the fact that they were metal didn't change that.

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And I covet my lovingly painted 1500pts Daemonhunters army (all 16 models of it....) but it's really depressing to know that it's cheaper to buy an entire box of Space Marines AND an entire box of Bretonnian Knights AND a box of Empire Halbardiers

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But...My 1000 point DH army has 28 models...How do you have so little in 1500 points?

Box of Space Marines, Empire State Troops, Bretonnian Knights. Gives you ten Space Marines which only sort of look like GKs, a bunch of Empire Troopers that can't be put together as Halbardiers (which should always be a choice...I play Empire :smallamused:) and a bunch of Bretonnian Knights that don't have heads. The latter two are useless if you don't play WHFB. And the Bretonnian Knights without heads are still useless even if you do. And Empire Halbardiers are awesome...

I believe you claim a fallacy, since for that price, you can get 15 Grey Knights +/- Special Weapons and Justicars. I know which I choose. :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Winterwind

Being Fearless with Terminators around seems rather disadvantageous to me. They cannot sweeping advance, so a non-fearless unit would disengage and make the termies a valid target for being shot at again, or at the very least get the assault bonus attack or a chance to get away, while a Fearless unit would just get additional wounds...

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All very true (though this is a different character, not the Terminator specific one), but read it again.

"ALL UNITS" within 12". Not "All FRIENDLY units". Oops!

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

*Eldar List Advice*

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Pretty much what I thought, give or take swapping the Dire Avengers out for Guardians (Don;t know why, I just don't like them very much *shrug*) Thank you :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Define 'casual play'?

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Friends who I play regularly, in a very informal setting. There's no 'prize' for winning, and anything like a scenario is taken as a mere suggestion until the very last turn, as we spend the previous 5 turns shooting and kicking the tar out of each other.

Times when, essentially, I would expect 'fun' army lists to be tried out in a relaxed setting - not being pummelled mercilessly by whatever is today's Most Horrible Unit that has suddenly turned up with no announcement.

Planning ahead for a familiar army/opponent is one thing, but honest as I'm sat here typing - I had no idea that a Deathwing Codex existed, until the player in question started ranking up 30 Terminators on the table after we'd put up the scenery.... :smalleek:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

On the contrary!? What? It seems like you're agreeing with me. :smallconfused: I said the Daemonhunters models were beautiful and the fact that they were metal didn't change that.

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Ah, my apologies, sir. When I first read your previous comment, it seemed as though you had mistaken my post as some kind of attack against the models themselves, and not just the prices. Going back I can see where I went wrong, so... sorry! :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

But...My 1000 point DH army has 28 models...How do you have so little in 1500 points?

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Typos and pasting errors, mostly. Again I apologise, but I seem erratically prone to them today. I have 16 models that make up nearly 1000 points, wargear and Orbital Bombardments included.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I believe you claim a fallacy, since for that price, you can get 15 Grey Knights +/- Special Weapons and Justicars. I know which I choose. :smallwink:

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And that is just plain failure on my part, not only to calculate £'s to $'s but to remember what sort of price the models were going for nowadays. Still, on the premise that you can beg/borrow/steal a few spare bits from other friendly Players, it still kinda works.... :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Wraith

All very true (though this is a different character, not the Terminator specific one), but read it again.

"ALL UNITS" within 12". Not "All FRIENDLY units". Oops!

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Yes, I realize that. :smallwink:
I thought you were trying to say how this no doubt not-intended formulation of the rule gave a disadvantage to the Deathwing player, so I wanted to point out how it could be used to a tremendous advantage for her or him. :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Pretty much what I thought, give or take swapping the Dire Avengers out for Guardians (Don;t know why, I just don't like them very much *shrug*) Thank you :smallsmile:

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I don't like Guardians. Dire Avengers are more flexible, have better weapons and only cost just a tad more, and are definitely worth the whole extra 4 points you pay for them. :smallbiggrin:
Assault Dire Avengers aren't that great, but, like I said, if you have access to Storm Guardians, you can swap out some DAs, which frees up some points.
Most people I know who take Guardians only do so for access to Heavy Weapons. Which isn't needed when you have ~4 Wave Serpents in the army, D-Cannons, Wraithlord and a bunch of (Elite) Aspect Warriors running around.

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Friends who I play regularly, in a very informal setting. There's no 'prize' for winning, and anything like a scenario is taken as a mere suggestion until the very last turn, as we spend the previous 5 turns shooting and kicking the tar out of each other.

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Heh. Yeah, that's like most games I play anyway. But, if both players are using 'proper' lists it works out rather well.
Fun Fact: My Infantry-Heavy IG lost Annihilation, even though I had killed every unit in his army and was Last Left Standing. Since Kill Counts are given by how many units you kill. My army has a lot of units to kill.

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Times when, essentially, I would expect 'fun' army lists to be tried out in a relaxed setting - not being pummelled mercilessly by whatever is today's Most Horrible Unit that has suddenly turned up with no announcement.

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Yeah. The club I play at is fairly relaxed. But we do have standards. We never play Let's Just Kill Each Other, because, whoever has uber-unit-of-the-week wins every time, and that's no fun for anyone. Because, when playing armies like that, "Money wins." Because, for a lot of people who don't have awesome high-paying jobs, currency is a factor in how people put together their armies.
So...We play Missions. Random everytime. No-one has an advantage before the game starts. They may have an advantage after the game starts, of course, but they're not going to know that until after the start.
...If that makes sense :smallconfused:

You also can't just rock up to a 2000 point game with 3 Monoliths/Land Raiders. Well, you can but everyone will hate you for it. Australia has Comp Scores to consider after all. And 'friendly lists' aren't MUST WIN!!!1!!!one! lists.

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Planning ahead for a familiar army/opponent is one thing, but honest as I'm sat here typing - I had no idea that a Deathwing Codex existed, until the player in question started ranking up 30 Terminators on the table after we'd put up the scenery

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Deathwing Lists are scary stuff. Similar to Nob Biker lists. When given the option of fielding the best unit in the entire army as Troops, the list gets unbalanced. Fortunately, and here's the best part, Deathwing (and similar Nob Biker lists) fall completely apart at low-point games. I will freely admit that lists like that are hard to prepare against if you're not ready for them. My advice; Build every army to be tailored against Marines, and you wont go far wrong in a tournament setting. If you can bust Marines, you can bust any other army.

Necrons, Chaos Marines (obviously!) and Sisters are counted as MEQ.

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Typos and pasting errors, mostly. Again I apologise, but I seem erratically prone to them today. I have 16 models that make up nearly 1000 points, wargear and Orbital Bombardments included.

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...Ah...Orbitals. The unit that doesn't require you to pay anything for it. :smallwink: Another mistake is loading up on Wargear to cover points because you don't have any other models. Again, possibly a currency issue.

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And that is just plain failure on my part, not only to calculate £'s to $'s but to remember what sort of price the models were going for nowadays.

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Not entirely an issue. By $AU;
Empire State Troops (10); $35. Bret Knights {I don't remember, $50 or greater, for 8...Which means somebody has to go for Empire bare-headed. But, this is 40K, so that's alright}. Space Marines; $50. Total >$135
Three boxes of Grey Knights (Total 15); $150
...You can use whatever spare Empire-cross-Space Marine bits you have left to make some pretty cool Inquisitors and Henchmen though. But, I play Empire in the first place, so I already have the bits.

But yeah. If you can score second-hand Daemon/Witch hunters, that's the way to go. I wont deny that. :smallamused:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

...Tau have one or two Assault units. Use them to your advantage. IG don't really have a counter-assault strategy...Unless "Throw lots and lots of men at it." counts as a valid Assault strategy; Which it doesn't. Any Guardsman in Assault is a Guardsman not shooting.

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Erm... what units do you call Tau Assault units? Kroot? They have T3 and NO armour save. Vespids? Don't make me laugh, they die like flies (fitting, eh :smallamused:) before coming through.

As for IG assault units... that could actually work. Enough men, and the enemy WILL be killed (same as enough Lasguns will kill most anything)

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And Fire Warriors are no less fragile than Guardians or Guardsmen. And, since the Tau Codex is the only one I don't have, aren't Pulse Rifles totally awesome?

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You do realize that that's kinda like saying that a gun isn't any worse than a Lasgun, right? They still die horribly to anything Heavy Bolter or better, unless you ahve them in cover. And if you're maneuvering, you most often aren't in cover...

And the might of pulse rifles are quite mdoerated by not being able to take heavy weapons (Pulse Rifles are basically a Bolter with +1S and +6" Range)

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Fun Fact: My Infantry-Heavy IG lost Annihilation, even though I had killed every unit in his army and was Last Left Standing. Since Kill Counts are given by how many units you kill. My army has a lot of units to kill.

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Don't tehy still have that nice rula that if you manage to kill very enemy model (table them), you win, no matter anything else?

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My advice; Build every army to be tailored against Marines, and you wont go far wrong in a tournament setting. If you can bust Marines, you can bust any other army.

Necrons, Chaos Marines (obviously!) and Sisters are counted as MEQ.

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But how do you do when the enemy brought aong his gazillion Orks? Or Skimmer-heavy Tau? Or mech IG?

My point is this: Going anti-MEq might give you the ability to kill MOST armies with relatively small problems... but it won't give you a guarantee against all...

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Originally Posted by FlyingScanian

Erm... what units do you call Tau Assault units? Kroot? They have T3 and NO armour save. Vespids? Don't make me laugh, they die like flies (fitting, eh :smallamused:) before coming through.

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Kroot don't accomplish much. Kroot Hounds, on the other hand... :smallamused:
More to the point, Erloas and me ran a mathematical analysis of that a thread or two ago, and we came to the conclusion that if Kroot with Kroot Hounds manage to get the charge on a (roughly point-equivalent) unit of Khornate Berzerkers, both units will be pretty much eradicated. And that's against one of the best close combat units in the game. Against a less powerful close combat unit, like, say, loyalist Space Marines, the Kroot will prevail.

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Originally Posted by FlyingScanian

Don't tehy still have that nice rula that if you manage to kill very enemy model (table them), you win, no matter anything else?

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I kinda thought that, too... :smallconfused:

IIRC if during any turn there are no models left of a side on that board that side loses.

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Originally Posted by Winterwind

Kroot don't accomplish much. Kroot Hounds, on the other hand... :smallamused:
More to the point, Erloas and me ran a mathematical analysis of that a thread or two ago, and we came to the conclusion that if Kroot with Kroot Hounds manage to get the charge on a (roughly point-equivalent) unit of Khornate Berzerkers, both units will be pretty much eradicated. And that's against one of the best close combat units in the game. Against a less powerful close combat unit, like, say, loyalist Space Marines, the Kroot will prevail.

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Fair enough, I stand corrected... maybe I should try to get some space chickens and chicken dogs... How teh bee do you get cheap hounds, though?

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Originally Posted by FlyingScanian

Fair enough, I stand corrected... maybe I should try to get some space chickens and chicken dogs... How teh bee do you get cheap hounds, though?

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No idea, I don't play Tau - it was a purely theoretical exercise on our part. :smallbiggrin:
Also, I should note we didn't check what would happen if they were up against Eldar or Tyranids. The main reason why the Kroot proved surprisingly effective in that analysis was because of the Kroot Hounds high Initiative - coupled with a decent amount of attacks, they simply managed to kill enough of the marines before those had a chance to act that they decidedly reduced the amount of the opposing side's attacks.

...on second thought, I'm not sure if we factored in leadership in those calculations, which might well shift the numbers in the Kroot's disfavour. Sadly, I have no idea where in the 100 pages of the last two threads those calculations were located...

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Originally Posted by FlyingScanian

Erm... what units do you call Tau Assault units? Kroot? They have T3 and NO armour save. Vespids? Don't make me laugh, they die like flies (fitting, eh :smallamused:) before coming through.

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...Like I said; Tau Codex is the only one I don't have. I thought Kroot were better than that because of Hounds and/or...Whatever the big ones are. :smallconfused: Don't they also have double-weapons or something? My guardsmen get eaten (literally!) by Kroot squads...What're you doing wrong? :smallconfused:

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Pulse Rifles are basically a Bolter with +1S and +6" Range

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So...The base Troop in the Tau army has weapons almost as good as Heavy Bolters. Quit whinging. :smallamused:

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Don't tehy still have that nice rula that if you manage to kill very enemy model (table them), you win, no matter anything else?

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...Damn. Guess I can laugh in my opponent's face next time I see him then.

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My point is this: Going anti-MEq might give you the ability to kill MOST armies with relatively small problems... but it won't give you a guarantee against all...

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Of course it wont guarentee victory. Nothing will. Even 'All Comers' lists have trouble against All Comers. :smallamused:

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But...My 1000 point DH army has 28 models...How do you have so little in 1500 points?

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Hmmm...

1 Grey Knight Grand Master. 145
1 Inquisitor Lord, 55 points of wargear. 100
1 Cullexus Assassin. 105.
4 Grey Knights, 2 Psycannons, Justicar. 200
4 Grey Knights, 2 Psycannons, Justicar. 200.
3 Grey Knight Land Raiders. 750.
1500 points, 16 models.