[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

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A couple of them, yes... I should change that.
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  • It's bizarre that he gets natural armor equivalent to his strength bonus. Why not Con? The strength based bonus basically lets him stack strength to ridiculous levels.
    • Hmmm... alright then.
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  • I'm conflicted regarding the natural attack damage. They do a horrendous amount of damage for a 1st level full attack. Is the -5 penalty hardcoded, or is it just a repetition of the rules regarding natural attacks (and therefore able to be adjusted with multiattack)? Should clarify that.
    • Yes, I suppose they do... then again, a human fighter with TWF and Oversized TWF wielding two longswords can do almost as much. I balanced it by dropping the BAB to 3/4, methinks... but, yeah
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  • I'd reword the ability Black Cloud for clarity; it should read either "3 times a day per HD, the Achaierai..." or "once a day for every 3 HD..."
    • Can do.
  • 2010-07-15, 02:56 PM
    Frog Dragon
    Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    • I wouldn't make Hurricane Shroud's 'fire caught projectile' effect a free action. That just opens up situations at 20th level where the air elemental (who has a 100% miss chance) just sits there & has a friend shoot projectiles at them for a few days straight, then opens a challenging encounter by releasing them all at a target. I'd alternatively (or as part of the general nerf) consider lowering the miss chance.
    That may be why it says once per round. :smallwink:
  • 2010-07-15, 03:14 PM
    Hyudra
    Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    That may be why it says once per round. :smallwink:
    Once a round helps (didn't see that, even after several rereads), but it's still a free attack every round.
  • 2010-07-15, 05:00 PM
    AustontheGreat1
    Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    First off, it's nice if you state in the ability descriptions the level it gets the ability. Others sometimes don't do this (I even forget sometimes), but it's annoying to have to scroll up to check the table and lose my place.
    Can Do.
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Don't center your list under Air Elemental Body. It looks bad and it's harder to read.
    I meant for the spoiler itself to be centered, I thought it would be smaller. I will fix that.
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    At first level, the Air Elemental has no fly speed, but under Whirlwind you state "In this form, the Elemental can move through the air or along a surface at its fly speed." - so it's immobile?
    Ability was directly copy/pasted and air elemental have a fly speed of 200'100' from the get-go. Ill try and edit that.
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Would be better if whirlwind stated the volume of creatures it can hold more clearly (perhaps using the air elemental's encumbrance to figure out?
    Good Idea, I'll insert that somewhere.
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Under Bonus Feats, Weapon Finesse doesn't need to specify a weapon.
    Interesting, I was under the impression that you had to choose a weapon for the attack to apply too. I think I like that feet a lot better now.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    It's a little mean for the elemental to go without a feat if he already has the one he'd gain. Perhaps he could get a feat of the air subtype? Or something else?
    I figured granting bonus feats was a little strong; also it was something that was a little uncommon on these monsters so far and I was a little worried that people wouldn't approve. Should I just allow them to pick any other feat they meet the prerequisites for?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I don't entirely get the reasoning for the air elemental to getting to choose whether it increases in size.
    Like I said, I was just experimenting with it. Basically, it was for those people who wanted to go with a stealthy character, playing off the gentle breeze aspect of wind, instead of the powerful gust aspect. It is easily removed It just popped in my head and I thought I'd see how it worked. I was also considering allowing the character to chose between "Force of Nature" ability, and something with a little more subtlety.
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Dancing Wind, I like.
    This made my day. Compliments along with criticism is the best way to do it. :smallsmile:
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    The move speed Zephyr grants is a bit much. Maybe 10' per 2 HD?
    Hmmm, I thought the air elemental had a fly speed of 200ft. So I tried to have it reach that at 20th level, I now see that you are right, they have a speed of 100ft. I'll change it like you suggested.
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Wake is rather powerful. Does it trigger attacks of opportunity? A save or fall prone is pretty rough, considering opponents who fail are set up for another wake attack the turn after (ie. they use a move action to get up, then air elemental charges by them again). What if it was a balance check vs. the same DC? It's not as likely to succeed vs. those who invested the ranks in balance (or creatures with four legs), but more likely vs. the untrained and clumsy.
    I like your idea, I will do it as you say, and I originally intended it to provoke attacks of opportunity. Should I specify that it does. I always assumed that all movement provoked attacks unless otherwise stated.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I wouldn't make Hurricane Shroud's 'fire caught projectile' effect a free action. That just opens up situations at 20th level where the air elemental (who has a 100% miss chance) just sits there & has a friend shoot projectiles at them for a few days straight, then opens a challenging encounter by releasing them all at a target. I'd alternatively (or as part of the general nerf) consider lowering the miss chance.

    Once a round helps (didn't see that, even after several rereads), but it's still a free attack every round with an attack bonus equivalent to your best teammate's.
    The ability was inspired by the stories about straw being lodged in trees and the horrible effects the debris hurled from a tornado can have. It is actually intended to mean that you fire it with your own bonus not the original, the arrow simply keeps all the properties. I've always had trouble with wording. I could also, give a duration for how long the projectile can remain in the body without being fired so as to prevent that scenario; though I'm strongly considering removing the ranged attack part of the ability and just granting the miss chance. I kind of liked the free action part as the elemental is not supposed to have to think about it, he just hurls debris uncontrollably, but if the ability is powerful I will certainly Nerf it. Lastly, how about HD x 2.5 (rounded down) to a maximum of 50% at 20th level.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I'd say the push effect of Force of Nature should have a drawback, like a penalty to hit or weapon finesse not applying to the strike, or something.
    How about making it work a little like power attack? You can take a bonus to hit off of the attack up to your dexterity modifier, for every -1 you take the distance pushed back increases by 5 feet. Also, I originally had it to where the elemental had to forgo doing damage on the attack to knock them back if you think that might be better.
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    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Tempest Breath specifies 'At xth level' - a nice thought, but unclear.
    Oops, left over from the design phase. Sorry. :smallredface:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Earlier I complemented Dancing Wind. Whispering Winds is more problematic. It's unclear how it works when enemies move, it's pretty much an effortless way to grant allies a bonus and it takes a lot of thinking and strategy out of the game.
    How problematic? Should I remove it or I just nerf it? What do you suggest?
  • 2010-07-15, 05:36 PM
    Hyudra
    Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    Interesting, I was under the impression that you had to choose a weapon for the attack to apply too. I think I like that feet a lot better now.
    The drawback is that it doesn't help your damage, so there's a tradeoff to the shift away from MAD.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    I figured granting bonus feats was a little strong; also it was something that was a little uncommon on these monsters so far and I was a little worried that people wouldn't approve. Should I just allow them to pick any other feat they meet the prerequisites for?
    Not sure.

    You might consider doing as I did with the Harpy and having a list of feats that the player can pick from at specific levels (and once they've taken all levels in the class, with a certain # of HD thereafter).

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    I like your idea, I will do it as you say, and I originally intended it to provoke attacks of opportunity. Should I specify that it does. I always assumed that all movement provoked attacks unless otherwise stated.
    Can't hurt to state it.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    The ability was inspired by the stories about straw being lodged in trees and the horrible effects the debris hurled from a tornado can have. It is actually intended to mean that you fire it with your own bonus not the original, the arrow simply keeps all the properties. I've always had trouble with wording. I could also, give a duration for how long the projectile can remain in the body without being fired so as to prevent that scenario; though I'm strongly considering removing the ranged attack part of the ability and just granting the miss chance. I kind of liked the free action part as the elemental is not supposed to have to think about it, he just hurls debris uncontrollably, but if the ability is powerful I will certainly Nerf it. Lastly, how about HD x 2.5 (rounded down) to a maximum of 50% at 20th level.
    The ability concept is good, the execution is potentially prone to abuse. Having a set # of rounds on how long a projectile can stay with the elemental and a nerf to the evasion % is fine.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    How about making it work a little like power attack? You can take a bonus to hit off of the attack up to your dexterity modifier, for every -1 you take the distance pushed back increases by 5 feet. Also, I originally had it to where the elemental had to forgo doing damage on the attack to knock them back if you think that might be better.
    The -1 for 5' knockback is potentially clunky. The way I see it, the air elemental should have to choose, tactically, whether it wants to make the attack with a penalty (and the knockback bonus) or a standard attack.

    Come to think of it, I also have to wonder about a situation where you've got a medium sized elemental knocking colossal dire elephants 50' back. The attack-penalty-for-knockback would promote this, rather than anything else (as colossal creatures have a -8 AC).

    I'd suggest reduced damage (my giants with similar abilities are known to not get strength bonuses to damage when applying effects like these), but with weapon finesse, your air elementals aren't liable to emphasize the strength bonuses anyways.

    Maybe reduce the die size of damage (to 1d8 if it's 2d6, etc) for the general benefit?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    How problematic? Should I remove it or I just nerf it? What do you suggest?
    It's not that it demands a nerf, just that it's a complicated thing to track during the game. You can picture a fight against 9 gnolls. You use the ability to weave around them and guarantee the flanking bonuses... but then they take their turns and move, and suddenly those flanking bonuses come into question. The actual bonus isn't that major (though it adds up and it comes with minimal penalty), it's just the hassle/difficulty of tracking it.
  • 2010-07-15, 06:52 PM
    AustontheGreat1
    Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    It's not that it demands a nerf, just that it's a complicated thing to track during the game. You can picture a fight against 9 gnolls. You use the ability to weave around them and guarantee the flanking bonuses... but then they take their turns and move, and suddenly those flanking bonuses come into question. The actual bonus isn't that major (though it adds up and it comes with minimal penalty), it's just the hassle/difficulty of tracking it.
    I just realized I left some words out when typing the ability and maybe that through off the meaning. Basically it works like this, you move twice your movement speed and all squares moved through are considered occupied for flanking. The way I had it before, I left out "squares moved through" so it said "you are considered occupying all squares." If the target moves on his turn out of his square to a new square, one that is not threatened by multiple creatures including squares considered to be occupied by you, then he isn't considered flanked. Simple as that. You probably knew what I was trying to say, but I still thought it'd be best to clarify. Also, when I wrote it moves twice its movement speed, I didn't really think about its already ludicrous movement speed so I think I could safely reduce it to. the elemental moves its full speed.

    Now if I add the bits declaring that if the target moves he is no longer flanked, drop the speed, and reduce it to once an encounter (the elemental doing that a bunch of times in a fight seems unnecessary and would make things very complicated.) You think that might solve some of the issues?

    Also, what does MAD stand for?
  • 2010-07-15, 07:00 PM
    Mystic Muse
    Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post

    Also, what does MAD stand for?
    mutltiple ability dependancy
  • 2010-07-15, 08:02 PM
    Hyudra
    Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    I just realized I left some words out when typing the ability and maybe that through off the meaning. Basically it works like this, you move twice your movement speed and all squares moved through are considered occupied for flanking. The way I had it before, I left out "squares moved through" so it said "you are considered occupying all squares." If the target moves on his turn out of his square to a new square, one that is not threatened by multiple creatures including squares considered to be occupied by you, then he isn't considered flanked. Simple as that. You probably knew what I was trying to say, but I still thought it'd be best to clarify. Also, when I wrote it moves twice its movement speed, I didn't really think about its already ludicrous movement speed so I think I could safely reduce it to. the elemental moves its full speed.

    Now if I add the bits declaring that if the target moves he is no longer flanked, drop the speed, and reduce it to once an encounter (the elemental doing that a bunch of times in a fight seems unnecessary and would make things very complicated.) You think that might solve some of the issues?

    Also, what does MAD stand for?
    Well, the trouble is having to somehow mark every square you moved through any time you use the ability. If creatures can invalidate the special flanking by moving, it kind of makes the ability nigh-on useless (Most creatures will move, and the bonus really isn't worth it considering you give up a turn's actions).

    MAD is Multiple Attribute Dependency. It refers to classes that need a lot of high stats to be worthwhile - like how Monks need the str for attacks, dex for AC, Con for HP, and Wis for abilities.

    All melee is somewhat MAD (by virtue of needing/wanting Str, Dex and Con at high levels, with some points in other stats for skills and wis save. Weapon Finesse takes Str out of that equation, but your weapon damage suffers for it.
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