Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.

Still wondering what to give my Nobs vs power armor-heavy armies - TL Shootas, Kombi-scorchas, or Kombi-rokkits? :smallconfused:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Wait, what? Metal models are less expensive to make. That's why the whole range used to be metal. The quality and durability is better though and that's why they price gouge.

Plastic models are only good for consumers (us). And it makes us want to buy them. Hence the recent move into mass-plastic armies. Again, it takes them so long to do plastic moulds because of the sheer amounts of parts involved (whoever designs sprue-moulds is a genius) and the cost.
Of course, a plastic mould will pay for itself, given time 'cause everyone will buy it. But, the initial capital involved is quite high.

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Well this is entirely based on scale. Metal models are relatively cheap to make a few of, but very expensive to make a lot of. They don't get cheaper with mass production.
Of course plastics are exactly the opposite, being really expensive for a few and really cheap the more you make.
You know for sure that moving to plastics, even with their high up-front cost, is better for GW's bottom line or they wouldn't be doing it, regardless of which was better for the consumer.

As for the quality... I would say that GW's current line of plastics are of higher quality then any of the metal models. I've never really been a fan of metals and I really wish they would replace all of them, including characters, though I know that isn't practical. I really wish the Battletech line would switch over to plastics (right now they have a limited production trail run of just 2 'Mechs). The detail of plastics has gone up dramatically too, and I feel to the point where it is a lot better. Especially where it comes to flash and mold lines.

As for GW price gouging on metal models, I generally don't see that, as they aren't any more then Ironwind Metals or some of the others. Most of what makes other game systems cheaper isn't that the models are significantly less expensive, its that games are played with a lot fewer of them, with the exception of a few games that uses masses of very basic models.

As for durability... both have their advantages, but I don't see metals as being better unless you count the fact that they are easier to strip if you want to repaint them. They don't stay together nearly as well, they bend a lot easier, they are harder to glue and modify, and their added weight makes dropping them a lot more likely to cause big breaks. And to me they tend to have a bit more issue with paint flaking off edges.

So, i just got the new Blood Angels Codex. I was really quite a fan of the old PDF one, even with all of it's limitations, but you know, it made i feel more... homely, and rough. Anyway, looking at this shiny heap of new rules in front of me I can't help but think that they're a little too good. Are the new blood angels an army just waiting to be abused by powergamers worldwide?

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Originally Posted by Lycan 01

Still wondering what to give my Nobs vs power armor-heavy armies - TL Shootas, Kombi-scorchas, or Kombi-rokkits? :smallconfused:

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More Power Klaws. Just save your points and stick with TL Shootas. Maybe throw a Kombi-Skorcha or two in there. Kombi-Rokkits aren't worth it.

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Originally Posted by Ash08

Are the new blood angels an army just waiting to be abused by powergamers worldwide?

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I've got half a Blood Angels guide written up. Similar to the Black Teplars link in the second post of this thread. Should be finished by the weekend.

Short answer; Yes and no.

Long answer;
Here's some things to consider;

The Red Thirst isn't even bad. You trade Combat Tactics for Fearless. Normally, Fearless can be bad, but, you're in Power Armour, you can hack it. And then you get free Furious Assault.

Descent of Angels isn't the best thing in the world. It just makes Deep Strike less bad. You could do without it if you wanted to, it's just a bonus.
Its only real use is for Vanguard.

Librarians. Their power selections are rather good. Add Jump Packs.
'Lord Level Chaplains' are back (even though DA and BTs have had them for years, cheaper and therefore better). But they still have nothing on a Librarian with decent powers.
Captains suck.

Furioso Dreadnoughts are about as good as Ironclads - they just perform different roles.
Librarian Dreadnoughts. Wings of Sanguinus. Also has an S10 Force Weapon.
Sanguinary Priests. They're really cheap. There's no reason not to take three in any army. They remove the need to try and roll lucky on Red Thirst.

The 'Sternguard in Drop Pod' trick is even better with Descent of Angels.

Assault Squads as Troops. As well as the ability to carry real weapons (like Meltaguns).
Assault Squads able to take cheaper transports (most notably Razorbacks and Land Raiders). There are lists going around with 2 LRs in 750 points. 3 in 1000, 4 in 1500, etc.
I'm personally making an LRR List.

Assault Squads also have access to 'free' Drop Pods, in addition to being able to carry dual Meltaguns or Flamers.

Death Company are...Okay. They're about as killy as Nob Bikers, but, can't cap objectives, and are quite a large point-sink (considering that they can't cap objectives). But, they are killy. Also don't come with a cover save. Large Blast, low AP weapons kill them easily enough.

Fast Razorbacks.
(Fast Rhinos are not that good, in comparison)

Do Blood Angels get cheaper Vanguard? (I'm Away from Codex) Anyway, they get Descent of Angels, which is nice for them.
Baal Predators are Fast, and Scouting. Scouting Tanks. Yeah.

Fast Vindicators and Predators.
Whirlwinds still suck. Even if they are Fast.

IIRC (AFC); They trade Thunderfire Cannons for Stromravens. IMO not a good trade.

Mephiston is T6, 5 Wounds. Is not an Independent Character. CAN NOT JOIN UNITS. Ruin Mephiston with Thunder Hammers. I'm also pretty sure (AFC) that Mephiston doesn't have an Invulnerable Save, nor Eternal Warrior. Use Anti-Wraithlord Tactics against him he goes down pretty quickly. He's also twice the points of one Wraithlord.
He's easier to kill than a Wraithlord since he's only T6, and can take a wound or two from Bolters and the like.
He's also harder to kill as he has 5 Wounds and is a smaller model (True LoS and all).
...Still, that's not comparing like points to like points. 250 Points;
2 Wraithlords are way scarier than one Mephiston.

Tonight at Games Night we're putting Lysander (me) up against Mephiston (the Store). Since Lysander is the Beowulf of 40K and is an hero and doesn't afraid of anything.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Two guides I found helpful a long time ago;
Fixing Old Bikes.
Fix your Trukks.
These might not be helpful if everything is already glued together.

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Thanks man. Those are really useful.

Luckily most of the old stuff isn't put together yet.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Descent of Angels isn't the best thing in the world. It just makes Deep Strike less bad. You could do without it if you wanted to, it's just a bonus.
It does, however, make Drop Pods even better.

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Drop Pods don't have Decent of Angels - only units with it in their special rules or equipped with a jump pack have it, and pods have neither.

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Originally Posted by Zorg

Drop Pods don't have Decent of Angels - only units with it in their special rules or equipped with a jump pack have it, and pods have neither.

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Right. Fixed it. Descent of Angels is only good for Vanguard.

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Should we head to the new thread yet, or what? I'd like to post up my new army list, see what you guys think of it. See if I can get any suggestions on beating dire avenger/jetbike/scatter laser spam Eldar..

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So, what is so good about Dire Avengers? as far as i could see they are still just slightly better guardians, that at the same time cant be massed in the same way.

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Originally Posted by lord_khaine

So, what is so good about Dire Avengers? as far as i could see they are still just slightly better guardians, that at the same time cant be massed in the same way.

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Because Dire Avengers come with a magic 4+ save, and don't die to Bolters. Never underestimate that.

Better Ballistic Skill - along with better guns. On top of the Exarch's Bladestorm ability, it makes them crap on Guardians at doing what Guardians do.

Then you follow up a nice Bladestorm with an Assault. Where they have better WS and I. On top of the Exarch's Power Weapon/Dire Sword. Then, after that, if you're like me, you've got the Defend Power, making your enemy lose one attack. Then, for Power Weapons, you've got a lovely Shimmershield to save you.

And, all that for +50% points cost of Guardians? Yes please. Maybe you didn't read the Codex right.

Some people take Guardians for the Heavy Weapons platform, but, really, there are other ways you can get those Weapons without having to spend points on useless Guardians as well.

:smallsigh: Yuuup. That's pretty much what my girlfriend did with her Eldar. Fortunately they die pretty easily with enough application of FIRE. :smallfurious:

Guardians are little more than ten wounds on a heavy weapons platform. :smallannoyed: I hate that thing. Scatter lasers...

Oh, uh, quick question- I have six leftover regular bolter ladies, from this lot I got off Ebay. What should I do with them? Turn them into celestians? Count-as retributors? Or just get a couple special weapons and a superior and make another regular squad? :smallconfused:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Grey Knights vs. Chaos? And you didn't know that would happen? Grey Knights make their own luck just by being on the table. My Knights have never failed me. Not once. :smallbiggrin:

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Well, I was hoping he would fail at least some armour saves amongst the, like, fifteen I made him roll (no. Not a single 1 or 2.). :smalltongue:

And my Chaos Lord failing to wound with more than one of the five attacks that hit (needing a 3+ to wound) did not help either. :smallredface:

It still turned out as a draw (four objectives, one claimed by me, one by him, one contested and one unclaimed; personally I actually thought I won, but my opponent was of the opinion his squad was close enough to contest that objective, and I did not want to be a git and spoil his mood by meticulously measuring the distance to prove him wrong).

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

It's a shame that Grey Knight armies don't work in anything less than 2000 points.

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That guy was playing an Imperial Guard army with Grey Knight support (it was a 1600 points game; if I remember correctly, he had a Lord Commissar, two Veteran squads, a Leman Russ, a Leman Russ Executor, two squads of Grey Knights, an Inquisitor Lord with retinue, and an Orbital Bombardment). It's hardly a tournament list, but it worked pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Winterwind

It's hardly a tournament list, but it worked pretty well.

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Speaking of Tournaments;

So, You want to go to a tournament, do you? Here's a few things you need to consider when writing your list. You don't have to prepare against all of them (very few armies can), but, you should at least know what you face;

Does the majority of your army have a 5+ save or worse? Can your army reliably defend against at least 2 or 3 rounds of AP5 (Bolters, etc.) fire somehow? (Lots of numbers, Cover Saves 'in the open', etc.)
What happens when your army gets Assaulted?

Can your army shut down psychic powers? (Psychic Hood, Shadow in the Warp, etc.)
How does your army deal with - or get around - Leadership checks? Specifically Pinning checks and Tank Shock.
What do you do when your opponent 'deploys first' but deploys no units?
Do you have units that can capture or contest objectives over 12" away quickly (in the last turn)?
Are you sure you have enough Scoring Units? Check again. Are you sure? Check again. Really? You sure?

AP3 (or less) weapons? Do you have some?
Do you have reliable Anti-Tank weapons? AP1? Can they manoeuvre to Rear Armour - or at least Side Armour - easily?
What about dealing with Mechanised Lists?
What about lists with two, three - or more - Medium/Heavy Tanks (Vindicators, Leman Russes, Hammerheads, etc)?
What happens if the opposing vehicle is immune to Melta, Lance or Ordnance rules?
What about Land Raiders? Two?
How 'bout Monoliths? Two? Three? :smalleek:

How does your army deal with Terminators? What about in Assault?
How does your army deal with Wraithlords? What about two or three?*
How does your army deal with Walkers that get into Assault?
How does your army deal with Outflankers or Deep Strikers?
How does your army deal with units with Cover Saves (as low as 2 or 3+)? Reliably.

*If your army can deal with Wraithlords, it can deal with Daemon Princes and TMCs as well.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

So, you want to go to a tournament? Here's a few things you need to consider when writing your list. You don't have to prepare against all of them (very few armies can), but, you should at least know what you face;

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I presume this is a general piece of advice, directed at everyone, not me specifically? Because no, I do not have any intentions of going on any tournament any time soon (though if the opportunity presented itself, I wouldn't decline, either).

Hmmm... I think my usual lists score well enough on most of these questions, except for the shutting down psychic powers (no such options for CSM) and cover saves (other than 1-2 flamers, my usual response to cover saves is getting into close combat) ones.

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Originally Posted by Winterwind

Hmmm... I think my usual lists score well enough on most of these questions, except for [...] and cover saves (other than 1-2 flamers, my usual response to cover saves is getting into close combat) ones.

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As long as you can get your Flamers in range, or make it to Assault reliably (CSMs also get Frags for free), you should be okay.

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Originally Posted by lord_khaine

So, what is so good about Dire Avengers? as far as i could see they are still just slightly better guardians, that at the same time cant be massed in the same way.

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The other thing Cheesegear missed mentioning is the 18" range instead of 12". That means they can start making use of their weapons well outside of range of most units, even fleet units would have a hard time assaulting them when they start opening fire, which is important for shooting unit.


However, I still use guardians, though I seem to be about the only one. They get a lot less attention and they are about half the price once you add in the upgrades for the DA (guardians never need a warlock how I use them). You have to make sure to put their assaulty heavy weapons to use though and not just treat it like a heavy weapon from other armies. And if you are spending 85+ points on a single heavy weapon that just sits there with "extra wounds" then you may as well be using something else. Either use the fact that they are a low priority target to get them somewhere useful, or find a way to make them annoying enough that they take shots that could have been directed to more dangerous units.

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Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

Oh, uh, quick question- I have six leftover regular bolter ladies, from this lot I got off Ebay. What should I do with them? Turn them into celestians? Count-as retributors? Or just get a couple special weapons and a superior and make another regular squad? :smallconfused:

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if you wish to use them now celestians are not too bad, however do not expect them to work too much better than your normal sisters. They are 2 points more a model and net you a faith point. All their other abilities in the long run are not worth the extra 2 points.

I would pick up some special weapons and make them a regular squad. retributor points are better spent on organs of doom (personal opinion but most people will agree) and a dominion squad will not be using any of the models (unless you want to convert them into storm bolter ladies which I hear work rather well with faith points)

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Originally Posted by crazedloon

if you wish to use them now celestians are not too bad, however do not expect them to work too much better than your normal sisters. They are 2 points more a model and net you a faith point. All their other abilities in the long run are not worth the extra 2 points.

I would pick up some special weapons and make them a regular squad. retributor points are better spent on organs of doom (personal opinion but most people will agree) and a dominion squad will not be using any of the models (unless you want to convert them into storm bolter ladies which I hear work rather well with faith points)

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Arright, sounds good. I just picked up a rhino for my ladies and an extra incinerator for my knights from my FLGS. Next on the list should be the ladies. :smallcool:

...When I get some extra cash. :smallredface:

So, here's my Ork army... Or at least, how it'll look once I'm done with all the assembly and conversion.

Spoiler

Show

Warboss
-Power Klaw
-Twin-Linked Shoota
-'Eavy Armor
-Bosspole
-Cybork
------------110 Points

Nobs x 6
-Eavy Armor x 6
-Twin-Linked Shootas x 3
-Kombi-Scorchas x 2
-Power Klaws x 2
-Painboy upgrade
-Cybork bodies x 6
-Grot Orderly
-------------315 Points

Nobs x 3
-Bikes
-Power Klaws x 2
-Painboy upgrade
-Cybork bodies x 3
-Grot Orderly
-------------235 Points

Boyz x 31
-Sluggas and Choppas
-Big Shootas x 3
-'Eavy Armor x 21
-Nob upgrade
--Power Klaw
-------------364 Points

Boyz x 21
-Shootas
-Big Shootas x 2
-Nob Upgrade
--Power Klaw
--'Eavy Armor
--------------171 Points

DeffKoptas x 3
-Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas x 3
--------------135 Points

Looted Wagon
-Boomgun
-Big Shootas x 2
-'Ard Case
--------------125 Points

Trukk
-Red Paint Job
-Armor Plating
-Reinforced Ram
--------------55 Points

Killa Kans x 3
-Big Shoota x 1
-Grotzookas x 2
--------------130 Points

TOTAL: 1640 Points


Wait... *checks notes* What? :smallconfused:

Oh, I see it now. I thought I had 1750 points, since I accidentally miswrote a number in my original notes. Oops... :smallredface:



So yeah, what do ya'll think? Considering my opponents aren't even up to 1500 points yet, I'm content with this army for the time being. If I need to drop points to make the game even, I'll ditch the vehicles, starting with the Kans and Wagon.



Tactics:
-Warboss + Nobs in Trukk will Blitzkrieg the enemy, Tank Shocking and then Assaulting the juiciest unit they can find - ie: any unit without a power fist.
-'Ard Boyz are the Vanguard, charging the enemy. 'Eavy Armor will allow them to shrug off enough damage so that by the time they hit the enemy, there will be enough of them to do damage while not too many to clutter the field. The Nob can also use his Power Klaw as a can-opener if/when we drag Termies into the fray while the Boyz serve as meatshields.
-Shoota Boyz sit plunk themselves behind the best cover and/or over the nearest objective. They will then proceed to shoot throw ungodly amounts of dice at the enemy.
-The Koptas and Wagon will focus on vehicles and heavily armored foes, while the Kans will hunker down and ravage exposed infantry
-The Nob Bikers will just do whatever seems the most fun at the time. Assault the same unit the Nobs and Warboss are attacking, shoot up whatever infantry the Boyz are shooting/charging at, or help demolish enemy armor... It just depends on the situation, really.


Thoughts? :smallconfused:

-I'm not intimately familiar with the Ork ForceOrg Chart, but split those Kans up as much as possible.

-I don't think you can actually HAVE 31 Orks in a unit. The Nob Upgrade is an upgrade, upgrading an existing Boy as opposed to tacking on a Nob, I believe.

-That 'Ard armor is -really- costing you, to the point where you could probably grab two units of twenty boyz and be on your way to a third for the same price as that one unit of thirty.

-I personally wouldn't trust the Trukk to be reliable for your Warboss and Nobs since it can be taken down or at least immobilized with S4 weapons. Also, one trukk, as said before, is only a third or a fourth as effective as two trukks.

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Descent of Angels isn't the best thing in the world. It just makes Deep Strike less bad. You could do without it if you wanted to, it's just a bonus.
Its only real use is for Vanguard.

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Erm... nope. There are numerous ways to abuse it in the Codex. Vanguard raping your face are but one of them. How does Deep Strike with no scatter whatsoever sound?

...

And then, this Terminator-hard unit unloads 5-6 meltaguns/bolters in your face, killing absolutely everything save for biggest Ork/Guard squads :smallsigh:

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But they still have nothing on a Librarian with decent powers.

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What Librarians? :smallconfused:

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Captains suck.

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They're almost exactly the same as CSM ones, with combi-weapons being cheaper.

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Furioso Dreadnoughts are about as good as Ironclads - they just perform different roles.

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So, you missed that meltagun combined with sort-of-like Lash of Slaanesh? :smallamused:

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Assault Squads able to take cheaper transports (most notably Razorbacks and Land Raiders). There are lists going around with 2 LRs in 750 points. 3 in 1000, 4 in 1500, etc.
I'm personally making an LRR List.

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Actually, out of these, 3 in 1000 are impossible.

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Fast Razorbacks.
(Fast Rhinos are not that good, in comparison)

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Why? :smallconfused:

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Do Blood Angels get cheaper Vanguard?

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A tiny bit.

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Whirlwinds still suck. Even if they are Fast.

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Why? :smallconfused:

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IIRC (AFC); They trade Thunderfire Cannons for Stromravens. IMO not a good trade.

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A lot of their DS abuse comes from this. Also, vehicle more killy than LRaider for 3/4 of the price and almost as durable.

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Mephiston is T6, 5 Wounds. Is not an Independent Character. CAN NOT JOIN UNITS.

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Yeah. So what? I7 and Force Weapon will kill most things dead.

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Invulnerable Save

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He has from power, IIRC.

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Eternal Warrior

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Outside of a Force Weapon, which is damn hard to bring through his I7 field of death, and maybe Blissgiver/Rod of Torment combo, nothing can IK him anyway.

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He's easier to kill than a Wraithlord since he's only T6, and can take a wound or two from Bolters and the like.

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Can they ride in vechicles? :smallamused:

Or deepstrike from Stormravens? :smalltongue:

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Tonight at Games Night we're putting Lysander (me) up against Mephiston (the Store). Since Lysander is the Beowulf of 40K and is an hero and doesn't afraid of anything.

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So, how it went?

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Originally Posted by Trixie

Erm... nope. There are numerous ways to abuse it in the Codex. Vanguard raping your face are but one of them. How does Deep Strike with no scatter whatsoever sound?

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If you can't get a second turn charge with jump infantry something is wrong (okay, it might end up being a second turn charge against a bad choice of target). Deep Striking jump infantry are third turn charge minimum.

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Originally Posted by Trixie

And then, this Terminator-hard unit unloads 5-6 meltaguns/bolters in your face, killing absolutely everything save for biggest Ork/Guard squads :smallsigh:

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If you mean sanguinary guard, they're not "terminator hard" since they have no invulnerable saves. Seriously, if 10 stormbolter shots could kill anything then grey knights and deathwing would be good. You can get the meltagun thing off vanguard for cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Trixie

They're almost exactly the same as CSM ones, with combi-weapons being cheaper.

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That may just be the point. I don't know, I play the chapter that apparently gets god-chaplains for 95 points.

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Originally Posted by Trixie

So, you missed that meltagun combined with sort-of-like Lash of Slaanesh? :smallamused:

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I saw that get used. It missed.

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Originally Posted by Trixie

Actually, out of these, 3 in 1000 are impossible.

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Really? I can fit 3 into 1000 with standard marines.

Captain -100

Scouts -85
missile launcher
Scouts -85
missile launcher

Redeemer - 240
Redeemer - 240
Land Raider - 250

total 1000

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Originally Posted by Trixie

Why? :smallconfused:

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The +6 inches of speed is an illusion. The real advantage of fast is firing all your guns when you move 6.

I saw mephiston fight Grey Knights today. Well, I saw him cast a power, jump 12", fleet and then charge into combat. Then I got back to my Empire vs Chaos Warriors game and next time I looked there was no Mephiston and half as many Grey Knights.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

More Power Klaws. Just save your points and stick with TL Shootas. Maybe throw a Kombi-Skorcha or two in there. Kombi-Rokkits aren't worth it.

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TL Shootas are the same points as Kombi weapons.

Anyway, you want to maximise your wound allocation potential. I'm not sure where I last posted my tooled-up Nob Squad but that's probably the best layout for them.

Fake edit: Oh bugger you've already put them together.

No I haven't. Like I said, once I finish assembly and conversion, that'll be the army I have. The Nobs are AoBR Nobs, so I've got to get stabby on 'em with a hobby knife anyway...

As its been said, boyz mobs cant be more than 30. The nob is an upgrade.

Otherwise..... have you considered using your looted wagon as a battlewagon instead? You could strap some boyz in the trukk and give the boss+nobs a more reliable transport.

The model I have for the Looted Wagon is too small to use for a Battlewagon...

Oops, silly oversight on my part. I thought I needed exactly 30 Boyz to have the 3 Big Shootas. Stupid me... :smalltongue:

Hokay then. Some critique.
1. Drop the TL Shoota on your Warboss and take an Attack Squig.
2. If you're going to upgrade the weapons on your Nobs, Kombi-Skorcha is the way to go. But again, you'll want to prioritise wound allocation, like so:

Spoiler

Show

10 Nobs, Cyborks, Armour.
1. Slugga/Choppa.
2. Slugga/Choppa, Ammo Runt.
3. Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha.
4. Slugga/Choppa, Waaagh! Banner.
5. Painboy.
6. Slugga, Big Choppa.
7. Kombi-Skorcha, Big Choppa.
8. Power Klaw.
9. Power Klaw, Bosspole.
10. Power Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha.

Drop however many of them you need to make it fit your models.
3. 'Ard Boyz is an upgrade to the entire squad, not to individual models.
4. IMO, mobs of more than 20 Boyz should always be Shoota Boyz, and mobs of less than that should always be in transports. Take that as you will.
5. Deffkoptas are not very good, but since you have no Lootas they're probably the best anti-light vehicle you have. Get some Lootas instead.
6. Big Shootas on your Looted Wagon probably won't be doing much. I'd recommend getting rid of them.
7. Your Trukk upgrades probably aren't worth the points. Trukks are Fast anyway, so RPJ doesn't matter as much. Armour Plates only work 1/6 of the time, if that. Reinforced Ram is...unnecessary. If they fall back from your Tank Shock, you might not be able to assault them. Bad thing.
8. Grotzookas x2 should really be Grotzookas x3.

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Originally Posted by Trixie

Erm... nope. There are numerous ways to abuse it in the Codex. Vanguard raping your face are but one of them. How does Deep Strike with no scatter whatsoever sound?

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That is not Descent of Angels. That's Commander Dante's special ability, and it's totally different.

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And then, this Terminator-hard unit unloads 5-6 meltaguns/bolters in your face, killing absolutely everything save for biggest Ork/Guard squads :smallsigh:

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Which unit is this? Are you talking about Sanguinary Guard? Because they suck. No invulnerables. 200 points for 5 models. :smallconfused:
There are no Terminator-Hard units except for Terminators.

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They're almost exactly the same as CSM ones, with combi-weapons being cheaper.

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Except you've completely missed that BA Captains don't get Relic Blades or Artificer Armour (two staple choices of any Codex Captain). Don't make Bikes Troops in any way.

And CSM Lords are Fearless, get Marks and Daemon Weapons and then crap on everything.

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So, you missed that meltagun combined with sort-of-like Lash of Submission? :smallamused:

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Fixed.
It's not a Meltgun. It's AP2, and doesn't have 2d6 Penetration.

I didn't miss it, it's just not that good. It's a bonus piece of gear, sure, but it's not anything to write home about.

It's Lash effect is crap; You have to hit. You have to Penetrate, then you have to Penetrate again, except, you have to Penetrate the vehicle's highest AV, regardless of what direction you were shooting from.
Second, if you're shooting a vehicle, you're not using Blood Talons on Infantry.

Lash; Pass a Psychic Test on Leadership 10. Done. Success. Works on Infantry rather than vehicles. You can put the unit into Difficult or even Dangerous Terrain. The affected unit then takes a Pinning Test.
How is a Magna-Grapple anything close to as good as that?

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Actually, out of these, 3 in 1000 are impossible.

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False. You are wrong.

Librarian 100
Death Company 60 Land Raider Redeemer 240
Death Company 60 Land Raider Redeemer 240
Death Company 60 Land Raider Redeemer 240

1000 exactly. Does amazingly well. No. It doesn't need to cap objectives. Because you've got 3 Land Raiders in 1000 points.

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Why? :smallconfused:

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Because Rhinos don't get the usual benefit that just about every other Fast vehicle has of awesome weapons.

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Why? :smallconfused:

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Because Fast Whirlwinds are still Whirlwinds - and you get to pay extra points for the privilege. At least it's only 5 points more than normal. Apparently Matt Ward knows that even when Fast, Whirlwinds still suck. I thought that was obvious to all involved.

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A lot of their DS abuse comes from this. Also, vehicle more killy than LRaider for 3/4 of the price and almost as durable.

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I don't see how. The units still scatter (1d6, not none). And get destroyed if only one model can't be deployed. Armour 12 is far less durable than Armour 14. Armour 12 is easy to break.

It is also not 'more killy' since it has no Defensive Weapons (except optional Hurricane Bolters), yet still tries to be a Transport vehicle.

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Outside of a Force Weapon, which is damn hard to bring through his I7 field of death, and maybe Blissgiver/Rod of Torment combo, nothing can IK him anyway.

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Do you know how many Force Weapons get taken into a tournament? Lots.
Thunder Hammers break Mephiston in two. When he's down to I1, that's when you run your Librarian in. I've seen it done.

Also (below) is my recollection of events from last night, where Mephiston tried to fight some of the better (i.e; Common as dirt in tournaments) Uniques of the game.

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Can they ride in vechicles? :smallamused:

Or deepstrike from Stormravens? :smalltongue:

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Wraithlords don't need to ride in vehicles. They're already better than every vehicle in the game except for Monoliths.

I'd like to see Mephiston Deep Strike, he has no Jump Pack. And will Dangerous Terrain and Mishap all over the place.

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So, how it went?

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Mephiston got his arse handed to him. Not a single Unique that went up against him last night died. Except for that one Mephiston vs. Mephiston. But, that was crap and nobody cared.

EDIT: Lukas the Trickster died. But he died going 'LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!11!1!' so it doesn't count.

Lysander is Stubborn, Ld 10. Transfixing Gaze fails.
(Turns out we had the rules for Stubborn wrong, but, I still rolled a 5 anyway and did pass, even with the modifier)
Mephiston needs psychic powers to work. If they don't, he's less good. He also takes Perils Wounds like the failure that he is.
Mephiston is also not Stubborn or Fearless. And breaks from combat like a wuss.

Lysander's 3+ Invulnerable crapped all over him. Mephiston has no invulnerable. He took every wound like the b* that he is and was pasted to I1.

Lysander emerges victorious with 2 Wounds left. Because he's secretly Beowulf and will kill anything. Mister Fister is also ~50 points more. I was pleased.

Typhus killed Mephiston in one round;
Lots of attacks => Poisoned Power Weapon => No invulnerable => Force Weapon'd.
(Very unlucky rolls on Fisty's part)
- Typhus is very much a top-tier Unique already. I'm not surprised.

Abaddon took about as long as Lysander to kill Fisty. Then everyone boo'd because Abaddon costs more.

The Swarmlord raped Mephiston in one round. Again, Swarmlord costs more so everyone cried about it.
- Swarmlord might be the best Unique in the game though.

Skulltaker Invulnerabled (2+ vs. Force Weapons) through all Mephiston's attacks that managed to Wound. Then Skully killed Fisty in one round. Skulltaker was 160 Points (in a Chariot). Another top-tier Unique already.

And, as always, someone brought a unit of Fire Dragons to the table. Still haven't met anything they couldn't kill.

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Really? I can fit 3 into 1000 with standard marines.

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Except, sadly, BA are not Codex marines and they can only take LRs as Transports - meaning, you have to have at least three units to take three of them.

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That is not Descent of Angels. That's Commander Dante's special ability, and it's totally different.

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It might be different, but it works only on units who also have Descent of Angels.

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Which unit is this? Are you talking about Sanguinary Guard? Because they suck. No invulnerables. 200 points for 5 models. :smallconfused:

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Well, their wargear looks pretty impressive. Reducing enemies to WS1, Meltaguns, AP4 Bolters - to me they seem just as useful as Terminators. Oh, and they can be taken as troops, which is a big plus.

I might be wrong, though.

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Except you've completely missed that BA Captains don't get Relic Blades or Artificer Armour (two staple choices of any Codex Captain). Don't make Bikes Troops in any way.

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They do get Jump Packs instead, though, and Descent of Angels - after all, BA are all about JPs, not bikes.

But yeah, considering the Chapter, lack of Relic weapons and armor is weird. Maybe because they didn't get to have all these Rogue Trader era gear they returned in C:SM? :smalltongue:

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And CSM Lords are Fearless, get Marks and Daemon Weapons and then crap on everything.

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Erm... do you mean they're good or bad here? :smallconfused:

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Fixed.

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Is that a made-up word? :smallconfused:

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I didn't miss it, it's just not that good. It's a bonus piece of gear, sure, but it's not anything to write home about.

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That's why I wrote "sort of". Yup, regular LoS is much better, no protests here.

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It's Lash effect is crap; You have to hit. You have to Penetrate, then you have to Penetrate again, except, you have to Penetrate the vehicle's highest AV, regardless of what direction you were shooting from.

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Erm... I only see: you have to hit, if vehicle is not destroyed, roll 8+D6, check against AV, if equal/greater, grapple. Nothing about penetrations? :smallconfused:

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False. You are wrong.

Librarian 100
Death Company 60 Land Raider Redeemer 240
Death Company 60 Land Raider Redeemer 240
Death Company 60 Land Raider Redeemer 240

1000 exactly. Does amazingly well. No. It doesn't need to cap objectives. Because you've got 3 Land Raiders in 1000 points.

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Har har har. I'm never wrong :smalltongue:

You do realize Death Company is 0-1, unless you take Astorath the Grim, which will still totally ruin your example?

Sorry, I don't see any way to fit 3 LRs in 1000 points using C:BA.

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Because Fast Whirlwinds are still Whirlwinds - and you get to pay extra points for the privilege. At least it's only 5 points more than normal. Apparently Matt Ward knows that even when Fast, Whirlwinds still suck. I thought that was obvious to all involved.

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Well... I, for one, don't get all the Whirlwind hate. It seems like an okay vehicle to me, which means I'm missing something crucial.

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I don't see how. The units still scatter (1d6, not none). And get destroyed if only one model can't be deployed. Armour 12 is far less durable than Armour 14. Armour 12 is easy to break.

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It is also a fast skimmer. Don't they get cover saves? :smallconfused:

As for units, you can deploy them anywhere on the line of move, can't you just deploy them 5" from any obstacles? :smallconfused:

But, to be fair, I always wondered why the whole unit is destroyed, instead of not-fitting part.

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Do you know how many Force Weapons get taken into a tournament? Lots.
Thunder Hammers break Mephiston in two. When he's down to I1, that's when you run your Librarian in. I've seen it done.

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Ermmm... Maybe I'm missing something here, but how do you move units in combat? And doesn't I1 mean that his window to strike long passed, unless there are Force Fists? :smallconfused:

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Also (below) is my recollection of events from last night, where Mephiston tried to fight some of the better (i.e; Common as dirt in tournaments) Uniques of the game.

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Ok, good to hear he isn't as tough as he was hyped to be :smalltongue:

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Typhus killed Mephiston in one round;
Lots of attacks => Poisoned Power Weapon => No invulnerable => Force Weapon'd.
(Very unlucky rolls on Fisty's part)
- Typhus is very much a top-tier Unique already. I'm not surprised.

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I wonder how non-unique Chaos Lord would have fared against him?

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Originally Posted by Trixie

[Tactical Precision] might be different, but it works only on units who also have Descent of Angels.

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It's not a good point, if your 'oh so awesome' move takes a Unique character to pull off (it's what Unique characters do) and only works for one unit.

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Well, their wargear looks pretty impressive. Reducing enemies to WS1, Meltaguns, AP4 Bolters - to me they seem just as useful as Terminators. Oh, and they can be taken as troops, which is a big plus.

I might be wrong, though.

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They don't have Meltaguns. They have Melta-Pistols, with a piss-poor range. Whoo...It's Melta range is 3". And if you're taking those, you're losing the AP4 Bolters. You don't get to have Shrodinger's Unit and say that it's awesome.

No. No they can't be taken as Troops.

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They do get Jump Packs instead, though, and Descent of Angels - after all, BA are all about JPs, not bikes.

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Regular SM Captains can take Jump Packs too. Descent of Angels only works when Deep Striking - which is crap. Or coming out of a Stormraven. Which you still can't Assault out of.

Deploying on the board is usually a 2nd Turn Assault.
Deploying from Deep Strike is at best a 3rd Turn Assault. Or, maybe 2nd if you're using Drop Pods. Or 1st, if your enemy Assaults you.

Descent of Angels is a bonus. You can do just fine without it. It's only good for Vanguard. Descent of Angels is also completely over-ridden by Locator Beacons. Which work for Terminators and Drop Pods too. Yep, Locator Beacons also work when you jump out of a Stormraven. :smallamused:

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Erm... do you mean they're good or bad here? :smallconfused:

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You need to ask? Wow...

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Har har har. I'm sometimes wrong, and regularly misguided :smalltongue:

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Fixed it for you.

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You do realize Death Company is 0-1, unless you take Astorath the Grim, which will still totally ruin your example?

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Honestly, I was just parroting what someone told me last night. I didn't bother to check if it worked.

Librarian 100
Death Company 60 Redeemer 240
Assault Squad 100 Redeemer 205
Assault Squad 100 Redeemer 205
...1010. It can be doable in the more friendly games.

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Well... I, for one, don't get all the Whirlwind hate. It seems like an okay vehicle to me, which means I'm missing something crucial.

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That it's outclassed in every way by all other Heavy Support options.

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It is also a fast skimmer. Don't they get cover saves? :smallconfused:

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Sure, that turn, it can't shoot. And the guys inside get to Deep Strike out and die. Second, you're really relying on Cover Saves? Wow.

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As for units, you can deploy them anywhere on the line of move, can't you just deploy them 5" from any obstacles? :smallconfused:

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Depends how much terrain you like to use. The default answer is usually 'A Lot', with all the in-between spaces filled with enemy units. It doesn't always work. Or '5" from any/all obstacles' sounds a lot like 'left out in the open'.

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Ermmm... Maybe I'm missing something here, but how do you move units in combat? And doesn't I1 mean that his window to strike long passed, unless there are Force Fists? :smallconfused:

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How do you move units in combat? I never said that you did. The Librarian comes in later.

Step 1. Tie Mephiston up with Thunder Hammer Terminators - who also cart 3+ Invulnerables so wont die that easily.
Step 2. Whilst Fisty is I1, throw your Librarian in.

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I wonder how non-unique Chaos Lord would have fared against him?

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So, you want to put a (admittedly, farily good) Unique up against a non-Unique and you really need to ask how it goes? Wow.

Toughness 4. No Eternal Warrior. Lower Initiative. No way to stop Mephiston using all his Psychic Powers or Force Weapon attacks. Pretty one-sided. Blissgiver might work if you're lucky enough.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Speaking of Tournaments [.....]

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May I add one more suggestion to your list?

What do you do when you suddenly find yourself looking across the table at an army you have no idea how to beat?

It's not likely, but it could happen. Say you rock up with a squad of Fire Dragons in a Falcon that are there to take down anything in armour, and looking back at you is an Alpha-Strike IG Tank army. More vehicles than you could theoretically kill even if you toasted one in every single turn of the game and assuming that the first thing they DIDN'T do was kill your Dragons?

What's your back-up plan when 'killing the enemy' simply won't work? Do you declare Going To Ground every turn and hope for the best? Or do you run at the enemy and hope for honourable death or bittersweet glory in one big wave of Swamping? They're desperate tactics, but they can work if you know before hand how to do it.

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Originally Posted by Trixie

Outside of a Force Weapon, which is damn hard to bring through his I7 field of death, and maybe Blissgiver/Rod of Torment combo, nothing can IK him anyway.

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Anyone with their own Force Weapon and Invulnerable save backing them up would do it, to be honest.
Unfortunately this means Grey Knight Grand Masters are the most likely candidate, and although he's only half the cost of Mephiston you'd have to bring more Grey Knights with him, which do not make a good Tournament army.

Better off with a good roll on any Eldar Farseer's successful Mind War/Culexus Assassin's Life Drain would do it just fine. Heck, even Prince Yriel could do it on the charge, with a bit of luck.

Mephiston isn't as scary as people make him out to be, and hasn't been for a long time :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Which unit is this? Are you talking about Sanguinary Guard? Because they suck. No invulnerables. 200 points for 5 models. :smallconfused:
There are no Terminator-Hard units except for Terminators.

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And Chaos Terminators. And Orks in Mega-Armour. And Wraithguard. :smallbiggrin:

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Fixed it for you.

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C'mon, there's no need for that. Remember, we're the nice 40k Forum! :smallbiggrin: