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I'M DOING THE BEST I CAN, OKAY
*sobs*
And technically, I left that part unspecified, although that could very well be the problem in the first place.
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Questionnaire!:
1. How did you like the game?
Was fun although chaotic. I forgot the first day so I didn't even actually use any scries since Obi-Wan died day 2.
The gambit worked out in the end even though I wouldn't have needed it if Rabbit stayed alive since I'd just have stolen her Barrier Sphere that night and would have made the claim of been Vader before The Fiery Tower instead of having to be on the back foot and making things up on the fly.
Picked Trixie as "Chewbacca" because I was pretty sure she was a villager and she wouldn't have believed my story anyways and picked The Cyberwolf as "R2D2" because even if he wasn't a villager, there's no way he was our killer or baner so even if he turned to be a rebel, there's still a 50-50 chance my claim was true.
Of course, what I really wanted was just to hit a villager so I consider myself unlucky that The Cyberwolf was actually who I said he was :smalltongue:
2. How crappy were my narrations?
They weren't that bad, still better than anything I could turn up.
3. How awesome were Rabbit's narrations?
The were quite good.
4. If you liked them, what was your favorite narration?
I've got to agree on the Vader one.
5. What would you like to see fixed in the next game? (other than the obvious, E.G. Best of Seven, engineers, etc.)
I don't like the time system for night actions that was actually used even though it benefited me in the end as I just sent in an order to steal from Trixie every 10 minutes as the Adreneline Booster isn't used up until I get something.
Stick with the normal system where all actions are resolved at the end of the night simultaneously. For the stealing, decide beforehand whether you can only steal from the person that had an item at the start of the night or at the end of the night in case of a change in ownership for an item.
6. Would you play a second Star Wars WW?
With changed rules that's been balanced out I'd like to give it another shot. All the tiny things that needed clarification/changing just made the game too chaotic to play.
7. What was your favorite part of the game?
Trying to maintain my story that I was actually Vader with Murska until pretty much the end of the day even though I needed him to protect me that night :smallbiggrin:
I'll give you one thing, FC: You exploited my loopholes like a pro. :smallannoyed:
That's because he is a pro at that. :smallsigh:
And I'm not trying to tear you a new one, LaughingMan.
I loved the idea of the game. The title is epic. But some of your mechanics had major and minor glitches.
No one here is mad at you specifically (at least, I hope not). But they are upset with how things turned out.
Annnnnnd just figured out mechanics for the next game, as well as my problem with narrations. Lex, you're a star.
:smallconfused: No, I'm a pixie. *points at wings* How are you missing these?
I'm drunk! So lets see how well I answer these questions!
Questionnaire!:
1. How did you like the game? I liked it well enough. To be honest, I'm not a huge WW fan to begin with...and this game really broke whatever fondness I had for it.
In all, I understand there's going to be lying and manipulation. Its part of the game...
But SOME people were awfully mean about it :smallannoyed:
You're new, and so am I, so we made it work as best as we could. And while I was playing, I didn't notice any real problems/
2. How crappy were my narrations?
I liked them!
3. How awesome were Rabbit's narrations?
THE BEST OMG :smalltongue:
4. If you liked them, what was your favorite narration?
Mmmm, I particularly liked Bill's
5. What would you like to see fixed in the next game? (other than the obvious, E.G. Best of Seven, engineers, etc.)
The whole scraps thing was weird. Like I said, I'm not a very seasoned player, so I don't know what would really make it work better.
6. Would you play a second Star Wars WW?
If you needed a conarrator, I would be on that **** in a second, buddy.
7. What was your favorite part of the game?
Internet Flea totally LYING to me, and me believing it. And then everyone going "OMFG RABBIT IS A REBEL" and the miscount happening just in time for FC not to be able to steal from me :smallamused:
Actually, I believed you were a Stormtrooper.
Also, he's looking for a co-narrator for his second attempt. And you are an awesome writer, so you should totally do it. :smallsmile:
Hey, the only role I knew was C-3PO! I had to shoot blind and I had pretty horrible luck at the start of the game, but as things progressed they got better.
I honestly don't know how he managed that. Making up that Cyberwolf was C-3PO, and actually getting it right was pretty much what won us the game. All of this seemed very improbable, and it lured me in to attack him the night after, which he obviously knew I was going to do, and barrier'd himself, which only put him in an even better position. It wasn't until after TFT had been lynched that I felt I could trust FC, and by that point, there was only one thing left to do. Sorry Trixie!Quote:
Fleeing Coward (as you well know) was Luke, and completely made everything up in the last quarter. Honestly, it might have been best for TFT to keep quiet
Wait, i got killed by R2-D2? my own teammate!? :smallfurious:!!
Questionnaire:
1. How did you like the game? It was pretty good, although ui would have enjoyed it more if i didn't get killed so fast.
2.How crappy were my narrations? I thought they were just fine.
3.How awesome were rabbits narrations? pretty awesome.
4. what was your favorite narration? the journal entry styled one.
5. what would you like to see fixed? there was a lot of vagueness in the rules, which really got exploited. (to our advantage but still :smalltongue:)
6. would you play a second star wars WW? definantly.
7. What was your favorite part of the game? FC BSing us into a rebel victory :smallsmile:
No, I doubt it was you either.
And please, no one else make a guess. I believe Rabbit is attempting to be nice about it. :smallsigh:
Hm. This game was somewhat unlucky for me.
First of all, I didn't protect Lex the first night, so when she got saved, I assumed she was the Heavy. So, later on, once the Heavy died and proved not to be her, I protected her the following night, saving her again, and then accused her in order to get her lynched. And succeeded... and she was a rebel. I mean, COME ON how could I have known?
Then, Fleeing Coward pegged my role on Trixie so I knew he was Luke. So I helped him get Cyberwolf lynched... and ended up lynching ANOTHER Rebel. Protected and saved Fleeing Coward and then pushed to get TFT lynched, pretty much dooming myself if the game had gone on. But still... gah.
Never had any items during the game, nor found out anyone else except FC in the end.
*points finger at Murska* Traitor!!! :furious:
Oh, and can we get a role list?
Um... in fact, was there even one rule change that didn't favored the rebels in the end?
Yawn. Actually, there was nothing we could do since the time FC talked for the first time, IIRC. I ran all the scenarios, including me jumping to be lynched instead of C-3P0, and it was impossible for Empire to kill quick enough. Only some sort of colossal blunder would have take the victory from the rebels, which, given two best and most active players besides me and FC were rebels, was extremely unlikely.
Sorry, a game where you see two days before end the only chance you have to win is to walk the opposite side into some sort of unconventional trap not depending on you in the slightest, then seeing even that small chance taken away isn't particularly thrilling.
And, seriously, how is this mean in the slightest?
As Shadow once said, a game where even most perfect way only leads to loss (not that mine was perfect, mind you) is broken in some way.
You know, it would be nice if you of TFT ever wrote back to my PMs, said what items you had, or coordinated strategy... :smallsigh:
Had I knew about the Emperor, I might have figured out something. Maybe. Thought, honestly, I had pegged Murska as R2 and Calamity as Chewie. So, that would have likely missed, too, and they would have won over us by straight lynch due to all the inactive players left anyway.
Yeah, I would like to know that, too. Did he waited with stealing after I got it? Or did he sent the PM first, and you just toyed with me sending me that PM at all?
...
One of the biggest problems this game had were PMs resolved at random times instead of in fixed, predetermined sequence at the end of the night.
Sooo... You were actually under impression that this is WW game? Nope, it is not. In WW game, you have to care about the balance. The amount of allies left. Here? That does not matter in the slightest, if your team still has a way to kill, it can win. And, FCs gambit made taking this from you impossible, as he had to be lynched first further protecting R2.Quote:
And succeeded... and she was a rebel. I mean, COME ON how could I have known?
And, BTW, it favored rebels - less roles, thus harder to find, more powerroles per role. The rule of 7 basically mans having (for 20 person game) a wolf team that is counted as if having +6 members for the purpose of determining if the number of wolves equaled villagers, due to all the stormtroopers. A very different win requirement.
No, I root for the Empire. Any rule changes in their favor were done without knowing they would turn out so.
No, hap_hazard sent it to you. FC then proceeded to steal it through loop-holes. You gotta know, I was really hoping for an Empire victory. It appears that my rules were gunning for something else.
And for the love of God, Trixie, stop yawning.
You're right this wasn't a WW game, it was more Red v Blue but with alot more villagers on one side.
Looking at the roles, it wasn't realy all that unbalanced - the extra villagers gave you guys lynch control at the cost of a slightly higher likelyhood of a stormtrooper dying so at best it was only a slight rebel advantage. Had R2D2 not been given the kill, I'd have said that this game would have been heavily in favour of the Stormtroopers.
Stormtroopers v Rebels
11 v 7 on the numbers side
Killer v Killer
Baner v Weaker Baner
Seer v Seer that can't be sure he's seer
Voider v Mason
Engineer v Thief/Engineer
6 Villager v 1 Generic Rebel + Fool (virtually 2 Villagers)
You just have to look at the end result to see it. Had it been me that got lynched instead of The Fiery Tower, you could have still won and that's after you guys lynched both your Baner and your Killer.
In fact I'll go as far as to say that if even one of those villagers had been a Rebel, the game would been almost perfectly balanced.
I'm not saying it was unbalanced at the start - but once we lost killer and baner, and once rebels gained a few more roles, our side of the ship begun sinking so fast we were unable to do anything about it.Quote:
Looking at the roles, it wasn't realy all that unbalanced
Villagers don't matter one bit, really, unless seer organizes them. It's very easy to squeeze a kill for rebel team out of them. That's what you did - throw some sort of accusation, and they, being blind, will follow. In normal WW game, where force balance matters, it's unattractive proposition, as wolf for villager is a bad trade. Here? Okay trade, especially if you're closer to 7 than villagers are.Quote:
- the extra villagers gave you guys lynch control at the cost of a slightly higher likelyhood of a stormtrooper dying so at best it was only a slight rebel advantage.
Eh, only because you guys were better than us when it came to killing rebels. I blame the helmets :PQuote:
Had R2D2 not been given the kill, I'd have said that this game would have been heavily in favour of the Stormtroopers.
No. Look at the numbers - we had to kill 7 people. That's basically standard WW wolf wipeout. You? Had to kill 7 people. Let's assume Team Good played well and killed 6 wolves for 6 villagers - the ratio is now 5:1. In WW game, you would need to kill 4 more villagers to win. Here, you need one. It's like having 4 extra wolves when counting end result. And that's with perfect Team Good game. Hence, my +6 (in average game) wolves comment.Quote:
Stormtroopers v Rebels
11 v 7 on the numbers side
Killer v Killer
Baner v Weaker Baner
Seer v Seer that can't be sure he's seer
Voider v Mason
Engineer v Thief/Engineer
6 Villager v 1 Generic Rebel + Fool (virtually 2 Villagers)
Also, rebel killer might have acted with greater impunity, being less likely to kill allies, every action of rebel seer combined more of his team than his opposite did, etc.
First, we hand no chance of doing this. No one ever responded to my PMs besides Calamity (which, incidentally, and ironically, helped me to clear him as last wolf). But, even if people did respond, and we lynched you, in the night, someone dies, in day, we lynch Murska, then Calamity (who now we can't spot so easily, since everyone is active) kills last required person and your team wins. One mistake and we go down even faster. That 3:2 lead in kills was crucial, we were in no position to change it unless we somehow nailed Calamity first instead of Murska, which was very improbable.Quote:
You just have to look at the end result to see it. Had it been me that got lynched instead of The Fiery Tower, you could have still won and that's after you guys lynched both your Baner and your Killer.
Basically, two of you created a good buffer for your killer, letting him act no matter what.
The game might have went in our favor, but ever since Lex/Rabbit died, it was a losing proposition.
You're kidding.Quote:
In fact I'll go as far as to say that if even one of those villagers had been a Rebel, the game would been almost perfectly balanced.
Quote:
And for the love of God, Trixie, stop yawning.
Awww, lookit that. I had a direct influence on the game. :smalltongue:
None of the rebel roles were added after you lost the baner and killer though. R2D2 was given the kill on day 1 before either of those things happened. I'm not arguing there was a slight bias to our team but it was hardly overwhelming.
And you think I had any idea who the rebels were? The first contact I had with a rebel was after I counterclaimed and that was only cause Murska was Chewbacca :smalltongue:Quote:
Villagers don't matter one bit, really, unless seer organizes them. It's very easy to squeeze a kill for rebel team out of them. That's what you did - throw some sort of accusation, and they, being blind, will follow. In normal WW game, where force balance matters, it's unattractive proposition, as wolf for villager is a bad trade. Here? Okay trade, especially if you're closer to 7 than villagers are.
In a normal WW game, wolves don't start out blind. In a normal WW game, the villagers don't also have a night killer. In a normal WW game, the wolves are the ones that can be sure of their scries. Care to continue about how this should even be treated as a normal WW game?Quote:
No. Look at the numbers - we had to kill 7 people. That's basically standard WW wolf wipeout. You? Had to kill 7 people. Let's assume Team Good played well and killed 6 wolves for 6 villagers - the ratio is now 5:1. In WW game, you would need to kill 4 more villagers to win. Here, you need one. It's like having 4 extra wolves when counting end result. And that's with perfect Team Good game. Hence, my +6 (in average game) wolves comment.
Also, rebel killer might have acted with greater impunity, being less likely to kill allies, every action of rebel seer combined more of his team than his opposite did, etc.
I agree it was a low chance of me getting lynched instead especially after I made a correct guess but if it had been me who got lynched instead of The Cyberwolf, it'd have gone completely differently.Quote:
First, we hand no chance of doing this. No one ever responded to my PMs besides Calamity (which, incidentally, and ironically, helped me to clear him as last wolf). But, even if people did respond, and we lynched you, in the night, someone dies, in day, we lynch Murska, then Calamity (who now we can't spot so easily, since everyone is active) kills last required person and your team wins. One mistake and we go down even faster. That 3:2 lead in kills was crucial, we were in no position to change it unless we somehow nailed Calamity first instead of Murska, which was very improbable.
Basically, two of you created a good buffer for your killer, letting him act no matter what.
With your seer alive and a barrier sphere, a simple scry would be all it takes for it to be game over especialy since you still had a voider as well to prevent night kills if you used him.
1 more rebel and it's 10 v 8 and I stand by my pont it'd be virtually even. Better scry, better bane, a void (virtually a second bane chance) and a lynch majority more than makes up for the fact that the killers has a slightly higher chance of hitting a stormtrooper.Quote:
You're kidding.
On the last day, yest, it was :PQuote:
None of the rebel roles were added after you lost the baner and killer though. R2D2 was given the kill on day 1 before either of those things happened. I'm not arguing there was a slight bias to our team but it was hardly overwhelming.
Seeing that there is no such thing as 'normal' WW game, and yes, Team Good had all the things you mentioned in the games I was in, and even when the wolves started blind they didn't had such big advantage, all I can say is:Quote:
In a normal WW game, wolves don't start out blind. In a normal WW game, the villagers don't also have a night killer. In a normal WW game, the wolves are the ones that can be sure of their scries. Care to continue about how this should even be treated as a normal WW game?
The only nerf I can agree with is that you guys had a killer, instead of night kill. That's all. Give it to competent player, and there's no difference.
If anyone knew about him, that is.Quote:
With your seer alive and a barrier sphere, a simple scry would be all it takes for it to be game over especialy since you still had a voider as well to prevent night kills if you used him.
I'd gladly give you that 1 more rebel for rule bias and active players :P noofence.Quote:
1 more rebel and it's 10 v 8 and I stand by my pont it'd be virtually even. Better scry, better bane, a void (virtually a second bane chance) and a lynch majority more than makes up for the fact that the killers has a slightly higher chance of hitting a stormtrooper.
I'd actually prefer to see them try to even it out by manipulating the number of masons. Maybe two groups of two, or something (Han and Chewie knowing each other would fit canon pretty well). And either eliminate Luke or add a fool to the Empire; maybe the Emperor can scry but Vader's scries are messed up by the suit.Quote:
1 more rebel and it's 10 v 8 and I stand by my pont it'd be virtually even. Better scry, better bane, a void (virtually a second bane chance) and a lynch majority more than makes up for the fact that the killers has a slightly higher chance of hitting a stormtrooper
Normal as in classic. "Wolves" starting blind makes a huge difference when your killer can actually kill you and not just the opposition side :smalltongue:
Add that to the fact that your seer can start networking from day 1 and ours will take a few days before they even work out who they are and there is a significant "wolf" nerf in this game compared to standard.
You also have to be absolutely joking if you want to claim that the "villagers" having a killer that has no cooldown is no big advantage against the wolves compared to a classic game.
Players are one of the unknowns that affect a game, it has nothing to do with theoretical rule balance :smalltongue:Quote:
I'd gladly give you that 1 more rebel for rule bias and active players :P noofence.
Well, you two have fun hashing this out. :smallsmile: I'm going to stop watching this thread.
Fun game LaughingMan. Don't be afraid to try again. :smallbiggrin:
Or we immediately contact the first scry we make on the basis that if we get called out, then the other guy's the Seer.Quote:
Add that to the fact that your seer can start networking from day 1 and ours will take a few days before they even work out who they are and there is a significant "wolf" nerf in this game compared to standard.
And then get horribly lynched for unrelated reasons.