Yes, it works, I've done it.
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Still looking for a new name for this class?
How about 'Teal Trickster' or 'Turquoise Trickster'?
I've clarified Arcane Fission more:
I added a sample encounter, a lvl 9 indigo trickster, along with suggested tactics.Quote:
Arcane Fission (Su): Your battle-focused arcane abilities allow you to wield your favored weapon in both hands by splitting it into two identical weapons. At level 5, if you're holding a melee or ranged weapon in one hand and nothing in an empty hand, you may create a duplicate of the weapon that forms in your empty hand. This duplicate is made of pure arcane energy but otherwise acts identically like the original weapon, including any enchantments and effects the original weapon has except for any limited use abilities. The weapon is treated as a light weapon when wielded in your off hand. The duplicate weapon dissolves into nothing if it's not in your hand by the end of your round, or immediately if anyone else holds it. Creating a duplicate weapon is a free action.
Also a new lesser invocation in the works for PrC qualifying and stuff:
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Rogue's Precision
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Permanent
When you use this invocation, you permanently gain +1d6 sneak attack. This is an extraordinary ability.
Unlike other invocations, you cannot replace this invocation once you have learned it.
I was looking for a new name because Incarnum has a monopoly on all shades of blue. I'm sticking with Indigo Trickster now though.
Make it instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled. Or make it function only as long as you know it, so you lose the effects if you lose the invocation (level loss, Psychic Reformation, other homebrew stuff you don't know about yet that'll temporarily grant an invocation). That would be better. If you have the chance, I'd suggest changing the few other "permanent" invocations to work like that, too.
Alternatively, how about a new subcategory of invocation-like abilities that can be selected as invocations and count as invocations, but function permanently like class features and can't be traded. That way the invocation-like invocations won't get mixed up with ability-like invocation-things. Trading out already happens, but people do crazy things. I know Amechra had a homebrew that traded stances to temporarily gain invocations, and this would be like a free +1d6 sneak attack for a class like that (get it temporarily, use it, then lose it). It's best to nip those potential problems in the bud.
Give them a distinct name (Eldritch/Indigo Talent, maybe?) and rather than directly treating them as invocations, let Indigo Tricksters and other invocation-users select them in place of new invocations. Scratch that, it's too complicated to implement. Better to go with a "while you know it" kind of thing as I mentioned above.
Any reason you can't leave this as a 24 hour kind of thing like most other invocations? If it's a qualification for feats/PrCs issue, that would make sense to leave it as an omnipresent "class feature" instead of a spell effect.
If you check the newest update, they no longer swap out for Invocations; instead they swap out for the benefits of certain Soulmelds (Soulspeaker Circlet just felt like an awesome "stance" to me, along with stuff like the Necrocarnum Circlet.)
Just as an FYI.
And, oh, I would suggest "Ten-Place Trickster", you know, because they are so many places at once (from their enemies' perspective, of course.)
From what I understand, labeling it as an extraordinary ability makes it undispellable. Also, rather unfortunately, the indigo trickster's invocations are supernatural instead of spell-like abilities, so they can't be dispelled anyway. I'll make the action instantaneous just in case.
I could start splitting the invocations into categories but I'm not sure if it's warranted yet. I only have two permanent invocations so far. Also, permanent duration or no, I would think that if you temporarily gain something, you lose it when the duration is over because it was temporary. I'm not 100% sure though so I'll make changes if I'm wrong on this.Quote:
Alternatively, how about a new subcategory of invocation-like abilities that can be selected as invocations and count as invocations, but function permanently like class features and can't be traded. That way the invocation-like invocations won't get mixed up with ability-like invocation-things. Trading out already happens, but people do crazy things. I know Amechra had a homebrew that traded stances to temporarily gain invocations, and this would be like a free +1d6 sneak attack for a class like that (get it temporarily, use it, then lose it). It's best to nip those potential problems in the bud.
It's this way for PrC qualifications. Now that I think about it though, I guess I could make the duration 24hours and it wouldn't mess things up, would it? Does a swordsage with Assassin's Stance qualify for sneak attack requirement PrCs?Quote:
Any reason you can't leave this as a 24 hour kind of thing like most other invocations? If it's a qualification for feats/PrCs issue, that would make sense to leave it as an omnipresent "class feature" instead of a spell effect.
Could you please elaborate? I'm always open for new invocations ideas.Quote:
And, oh, I would suggest "Ten-Place Trickster", you know, because they are so many places at once (from their enemies' perspective, of course.)
Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that if you have a permanent/instantaneous duration on the invocation, temporarily gain the ability to use it (such as Extra Invocation via the Chameleon's floating bonus feat, or with class levels that are later lost to resurrection or negative levels), use the invocation, and then lose the ability to use it, you would still have the effects of it active on you.
Even as extraordinary abilities, permanent effects can be removed. If nothing else, Iron Heart Surge can let you remove it (and you might, hypothetically, be forced to do so if you are dominated). Instantaneous is better for anything that gives you something that cannot be removed or (directly) undone. Just make sure you make it not stack with the effects of previous uses.
Well, I was just commenting on the fact that they make so many mirror images as a matter of course; you can literally look like you are "ten places at once", if you play your cards right and pick the right invocations.
Sorry I misunderstood, it was a name change suggestions not an invocation one. I'm keeping it Indigo Trickster though.
I changed the two invocations to Instantaneous with Duration: 24hours. Does that fix it?
Then again, it does sound like it would be cool for an invocation that would let you create a bunch of images and then swapping between them as part of an attack action...
(The name, I mean.)
Well, the Phantom Assailant line of invocations make duplicate images of you as a standard or swift action and you can swap between them with Bait n' Switch as a swift or immediate action. So merging the two as a higher level invocation seems like a natural evolution. Something like this for a dark invocation:
Good for 16th level?Quote:
Ten-Place Trickster
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/lvl
Nine duplicates of you exits your body. With a grin, they charge at the enemy.
This invocation works as Phantom Mob, except nine figments are produced and the duration for the figments are increased to 1 round per class level.
Surge 1: You may swap places with any of your figments as a free action.
This prompted me to look at Magic of Incarnum for the first time. I didn't understand everything, but I did find Wolverine in there:Quote:
You're not going to add a minor incarnum ability are you?
Balance question: I desire this class to be mid/low tier 3, at the ToB range. At the same time, I don't like levels where you don't get a new invocation, so I'm thinking about bumping the invocations known to 20 (1 per level). Would that push this class higher in tier than my goal?
I like the invocation; it makes it a nice little "Oh, you know which one is me, right? NOT!" effect, which is what I really want out of life.
So I was procrastinating in the library today and looked over the Spell Compendium for more invocations. There's a crazy amount of awesome spells in there, but many of them are so situational that they're better off as bundled invocations.
I started bundling them together as invocations and made these:
Least
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Cat Burglar
This invocation allows you to use Dispel WardSpC p67, Instant LocksmithSpC p124, Instant SearchSpC p124, and Spontaneous SearchSpC p204 as the spells.
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Distraction
This invocation allows you to use DistractSpC p69, Distract AssailantSpC p69, and Distracting RaySpC p69 as the spells.
Surge 1: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 2.
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Go When I Tell You
This invocation allows you to use InciteSpC p121, InhibitSpC p123, and Shock and AweSpC p189 as the spells.
Surge 1: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 2.
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Mislead
This invocation allows you to use Cloak PoolSpC p48, Discolor PoolSpC p66, Dead EndSpC p59, and Remove ScentSpC p173 as the spells.
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Rogue's Guile
This invocation allows you to use Accelerated MovementSpC p7, CheatSpC p46, Insightful FeintSpC p124, and Sticky FingersSpC p206 as the spells.
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Stop Hitting Yourself
This invocation allows you to use BackbiterSpC p23, BacklashSpC p23, and Slapping HandSpC p191 as the spells.
Surge 1: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 2.
Lesser
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Mind Trickery
This invocation allows you to use Delusions of GrandeurSpC p63, Mindless RageSpC p142, Entice GiftSpC p83, and Miser's EnvySpC p142 as the spells.
Surge 2: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 4.
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Cheat Gravity
This invocation allows you to use False GravitySpC p87 as the spell.
Greater
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Phantasms
This invocation allows you to use Phantasmal AssailantSpC p154, Phantasmal DecoySpC p155, Phantasmal DisorientationSpC p155, and Phantom FoeSpC p156 as the spells.
Surge 2: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 4.
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Dispelling Veil
This invocation allows you to use Wall of DispellingSpC p233 as the spell.
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Supreme Invisibility
This invocation allows you to use Superior InvisibilitySpC p125 as the spell.
Surge 2: The initiation action is instead a swift action.
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The Greatest Illusion
This invocation allows you to use SolipsismSpC p194 as the spell.
Surge 2: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 4.
Thoughts?
Looks pretty cool, but Phantasmal Thief really isn't anything like any of the other Phantasms, and in fact isn't even a Phantasm. It's more of a kleptomaniac Unseen Servant with infinite-yet-limited movespeed (It can get to anything within Close range, including anything in a Bag of Holding as long as the bag itself is in range (no matter how far you'd have to walk inside the bag to get to the thing).
You're right, it doesn't belong. I took that one out. It's a neat spell though so I'll keep trying to fit it into an invocation.
Other spells I've been considering turning into invocations: Shifting Paths 8 p188, Sensory Deprivation 4 p182, Reflective Disguise 2 p171, Illusory Feast 5 p120, Disguise Undead 2 p66, Decoy Image 3 p61, Daggerspell Stance
Also considering making a Shadow themed PrC, as I've been deliberately avoiding shadow illusions so far. Stuff like Shadow Walk would be neat. Also maybe open it up to Divinations too.
Well this is like, 1 year later, but I heard someone talk about indigo trickster and I came here to check.
Some details that I did not understand very well:
It doesn't said it have to be an attack against a creature, or deal damage, so I could earn surge points by hitting the floor?
The last phrases are a bit odd. The surge points last until the end of the encounter or until you expend them, but as you did not add "whatever happens first" then someone pointed it and you added the 5 minutes limit. But if they dissapear when the encounter is over, why do you need the 5 limit rule? That only helps the first thing I pointed, saying I could earn surge point by hitting the floor.
Here is how I would have wrote it:
Spoiler
You acquire a surge point with each successful attack that you make against a creature using a melee or thrown weapon, and deal at least 1 point of damage,which you can then use to fuel your surge invocations. These points are stored until you either expend them or until the end of the encounter, ehatever happens first. The maximum number of surge points that you can store at a time is one per class level.
Isn't it easier to make the AC bonus a dodge bonus? I say it because of the last Phrase that pretty much define a dodge bonus.
Does that mean that if I am invisible for a target, everyone else got +1 to hit it? Even if I don't attack him?
Shouldn't it be: Enemies you attack that have lost their Dex bonus against you suffer a -1 AC penalty until the beginning of your next turn.
Or if you preffer "enemies that you threaten", depending on your idea of the ability.
Some description suggestions:
Why use this instead of Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting? Just add "as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat." Wouldn't that work? Or am I missing something about it being epic and then not being able to "even if you do not qualify"?
I understand that using an immeditate action spends your swift action "slot" for the next turn. What would happen if I use 2 immediate actions thanks to Uncanny Agility? Do I have to use the swift "slot" of my next 2 rounds?
Also, shouldn't Limit Break be an upgrade of Uncanny Agility instead of a new ability?
I hope you understand this is the internet and I don't plan to sound like a jerk :smallfrown:
i really like the class but I see it too abusable as it is writen now. This are of course sugestions and you are free to throw them at my face.
I hope you are still checking this thread :)
You're right. I'm changing it to this:
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You acquire a surge point with each successful attack that you make against a creature with a melee or thrown weapon in combat, which you can then use to fuel your surge invocations.
I copied the wording of the SRD / Pathfinder Monk ability for consistency. Should I change it to dodge bonus?Quote:
Isn't it easier to make the AC bonus a dodge bonus? I say it because of the last Phrase that pretty much define a dodge bonus.
I changed it to:Quote:
Shouldn't it be: Enemies you attack that have lost their Dex bonus against you suffer a -1 AC penalty until the beginning of your next turn.
I wanted to keep the wording of "denied dexterity" because that specific term comes up so often, but I still want people to know that the trickster has to attack the target first to activate this ability, as you said.Quote:
Enemies you attack that are denied their dexterity bonus by you take a -1 penalty to their AC until the beginning of your next turn.
Arcane Fission, I said empty hand for those rare situations where you have more than two hands, like that demon snake chick thing.Quote:
Some description suggestions:
Unseen Steps, since at that point you'll have far more than 2 swings in a full attack, I envisioned teleporting in the middle of full attacks after every two hits, not just teleporting once at the end of a turn. More complicated but more awesome? Is the wording still bad?
Not sure why the bonus feat should be tied to an armor restriction. Is there a precedent for this?
The rest I changed as you suggested.
I wasn't aware of the epic feat. I'll change it to this.Quote:
Why use this instead of Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting? Just add "as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat." Wouldn't that work? Or am I missing something about it being epic and then not being able to "even if you do not qualify"?
From what I understand/intended, the "additional" immediate action from the ability is separate from your normal action economy so you wouldn't have used a second swift "slot."Quote:
I understand that using an immeditate action spends your swift action "slot" for the next turn. What would happen if I use 2 immediate actions thanks to Uncanny Agility? Do I have to use the swift "slot" of my next 2 rounds?
It should. I'll fix this when I wake up.Quote:
Also, shouldn't Limit Break be an upgrade of Uncanny Agility instead of a new ability?
Doesn't sound mean at all! I'm glad you like the class and always appreciate feedback. Thank you for the suggestions! :smallsmile:Quote:
I hope you understand this is the internet and I don't plan to sound like a jerk :smallfrown:
i really like the class but I see it too abusable as it is writen now. This are of course sugestions and you are free to throw them at my face.
I hope you are still checking this thread :)
I hope my fixes were actual fixes. I did them in a sleepy state so they might not all make sense.
Dralnu! Great to see you here again!
For arcane alacrity, invocation grades are not enumerated (they don't correspond to numbers), so saying a cost "equal" to the invocation's grade makes no sense, especially since you give the costs based on grade immediately afterwards. This should say "based on" the grade instead.
No. Dodge bonuses are also lost whenever you would be denied your Dex bonus to AC, a limitation that the current version does not have.
Speaking of which, does the AC penalty apply to the attack that caused the penalty, or only afterwards?Quote:
I wanted to keep the wording of "denied dexterity" because that specific term comes up so often, but I still want people to know that the trickster has to attack the target first to activate this ability, as you said.
I'd suggest the following wording instead:
When you attack an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, it takes a -1 penalty to its armor class for 1 round. This penalty takes effect [before/after] resolving your attack.
Ranger's Combat Style bonus feats.Quote:
Not sure why the bonus feat should be tied to an armor restriction. Is there a precedent for this?
You should specify as such (eg: "This additional immediate action does not count against your swift actions on your next turn."). Otherwise, if you were to gain multiple swift actions (such as with RKV), you'd still lose your 2nd swift action, I think.Quote:
From what I understand/intended, the "additional" immediate action from the ability is separate from your normal action economy so you wouldn't have used a second swift "slot."
Hey Garryl! I'm always here, just less active than I used to be. Though I admit I haven't been keeping up with the brilliantgameologist forums.
I've made the suggested fixes and reworded Lowered Guard:
There are tons of invocations that actively deny Dexterity bonus so I made those relevant to the ability.Quote:
Lowered Guard (Ex): Cracks in your enemies' defences appear when you surprise them, which you and your allies can further exploit. Starting at level 4, when you actively deny an opponent of its Dexterity bonus or strike an opponent currently denied its Dexterity bonus, it takes a -1 penalty to its AC until the beginning of your next turn. This penalty takes effect before resolving your attack and is not cumulative. This penalty increases by 1 at level 8, 12, 16, and 20.