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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Big Fau
No, because Wizard or Druid 6 is still overpowered by comparison, just less-so.
E6 doesn't fix the problems. If DnD as a whole were a pool filled with burning napalm, E6 would be the equivalent of sticking your leg in the shallow end. There's still a problem, but not as bad as swimming in it.
But that's the fun part about DnD: Everything burns.
Wizard 6 isn't particularly overpowered, though Druid 6 is pretty solid indeed. Artificer 6 breaks the game into tiny pieces while laughing.
Here's the thing...I don't need power discrepancies to cease existing...I merely need players to accurately know about them in advance(solved by existance of tier system), and to reduce discrepancies to a playable level.
The latter, I can do by nerfing the top classes or boosting the bottom ones. Balancing by boosting seems infinitely more popular among players. Since it's the same end result...it tends to be the path I take.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Rogue Shadows
As for druids...
I think it's a class that needs some serious ground-up reexamination to fix.
Core D&D gives us four main spellcasters: Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard. Three of these classes, to balance out all the spells they get (in theory), get very few class features (Sorcerer and Cleric have 19 dead levels, Wizard has 15) otherwise and a small, limited skill selection.
Druid gets full casting, good skill selection, no dead levels, and an excellent selection of spells.
Of course it's too powerful! Look it! there are other classes in the PHB that get a mixture of spells and class features: The bard, the ranger, and the paladin. But none of them get full casting! And of the classes in the PHB that get no or few dead levels, two of them can't cast spells at all! (barbarian, monk and rogue)
If you removed the druid's spellcasting entirely, you'd still have a pretty decent class, at least as compared to the other classes in the core rulebook, if a little weak at low levels prior to being able to shapeshift. It'd no longer be Tier 1 at all but I'd be immensely surprised if it dropped down to Tier 4 or lower.
Were I a part of Wizards of the Coast in 2003 when 3.0 was getting updated to 3.5, I would have totally re-designed the druid class to either
a) not be a full caster, or
b) not be a caster at all, and emphasize the shapeshifting aspect more.
Agreed, the Druid is like 2-3 separate classes gestalted together due to legacy.
Personally I'd go the other way from what you suggest though, Druid maintains full casting, but the shapeshifting is toned way down, to the point where it is useless in combat and is more for scouting/hiding, and remove natural spell as well for good measure. I'd then switch the Ranger and Druid animal companions, again making the Druid's companion effectively useless in combat, and more of a flavor thing. Finally, the Druids' skills would get knocked down to a 2+int mod, and possibly lose a few class skills.
The other stuff like trackless step, woodland stride, a thousand faces, etc, are all removed, and made into spells if there isn't already a spell equivalent for those abilities.
The idea would be to make spellcasting the primary druid feature, with the other features eliminated or powered down to the point where they aren't prominent. The Druid would still be on par with a Wizard or Cleric, but no longer "Hey look at me, I have single class features stronger than your entire class!"
For those who want a Wildshape focused character, I'd leave the Wildshape variant ranger with the current wildshape progression rather than a nerfed wildshape, which should be enough to make that concept remain viable.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Tyndmyr
Wizard 6 isn't particularly overpowered, though Druid 6 is pretty solid indeed. Artificer 6 breaks the game into tiny pieces while laughing.
Here's the thing...I don't need power discrepancies to cease existing...I merely need players to accurately know about them in advance(solved by existance of tier system), and to reduce discrepancies to a playable level.
The latter, I can do by nerfing the top classes or boosting the bottom ones. Balancing by boosting seems infinitely more popular among players. Since it's the same end result...it tends to be the path I take.
Wizard 6 is still very capable of ending 90% of the encounters in E6 (he's just not as crazy-prepared), but I do agree.
One thing I've been thinking about: Divine Crusader-style spellcasting for the Cleric instead of normal casting. Basically going Ardent on their spellcasting (minus the whole lightning progression with CL boosters).
Another thing: Removing Bonus Spells from the Tier 2s and up (I don't know if I'd leave Bonus PP for the psionic ones though, I guess it depends on what PP recharge mechanics I would tolerate).
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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One thing I've been thinking about: Divine Crusader-style spellcasting for the Cleric instead of normal casting. Basically going Ardent on their spellcasting (minus the whole lightning progression with CL boosters).
You really think the crusader mechanic would work well for a full caster?
I've been thinking about taking several various houserules/ideas I have and making a new system where every power source (Divine, Arcane, Martial, possibly Ki/Psionic) has its own unique resource mechanic, but I've been stuck wondering what the hell to do with Divine given that it's always been "Just like arcane magic, but with healing!"
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Seerow
I've been thinking about taking several various houserules/ideas I have and making a new system where every power source (Divine, Arcane, Martial, possibly Ki/Psionic) has its own unique resource mechanic, but I've been stuck wondering what the hell to do with Divine given that it's always been "Just like arcane magic, but with healing!"
...what do you mean, exactly? Like, Ki is power points, Arcane is Vancian casting, etc?
'Cause if that's the case: Seek ye out the Binder class, look hard at the Cleric domains, and ponder how to combine the two. That might work.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Rogue Shadows
...what do you mean, exactly? Like, Ki is power points, Arcane is Vancian casting, etc?
Basically, yes.
Quote:
'Cause if that's the case: Seek ye out the Binder class, look hard at the Cleric domains, and ponder how to combine the two. That might work.
Binder is in Tome of Magic, right? I never picked it up after hearing how terrible most of the stuff in there was, but I'll see if I can find someone with a copy I can look through. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Seerow
Binder is in Tome of Magic, right? I never picked it up after hearing how terrible most of the stuff in there was, but I'll see if I can find someone with a copy I can look through. Thanks for the tip.
Truenaming is...well, broken. As in it doesn't work right. But Binding and Shadowcasting are both all kinds of awesome both mechanically and fluff-wise. Truenaming too, if you can find a way to fix it.
Binders especially are terrible only because Tier 1 classes exist; Binders are considered to be in Tier 2 or 3.
I can't find what tier Shadowcasters are in...
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Seerow
Binder is in Tome of Magic, right? I never picked it up after hearing how terrible most of the stuff in there was, but I'll see if I can find someone with a copy I can look through. Thanks for the tip.
Truenaming is terrible, but Binders are decent (Tier 3/2) and Shadowcasters are no slouches themselves. Fluff is great, it's just the Truenaming mechanics which hold the book back, I think.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Rogue Shadows
Truenaming is...well, broken. As in it doesn't work right. But Binding and Shadowcasting are both all kinds of awesome both mechanically and fluff-wise. Truenaming too, if you can find a way to fix it.
Binders especially are terrible only because Tier 1 classes exist; Binders are considered to be in Tier 2 or 3.
I can't find what tier Shadowcasters are in...
Shadowcasters are tier 4. They scale linearly, but WotC messed up when they made the abilities per day, instead of per encounter or at-will or rechargeable.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Swiftmongoose
Shadowcasters are tier 4. They scale linearly, but WotC messed up when they made the abilities per day, instead of per encounter or at-will or rechargeable.
Really? I've seen argued (thanks to a Google search a few minutes ago - what I meant was I didn't see Shadowcaster on the "official" Tier list, apparently I can find its Tier if I just get up off of my lazy bum...) that they might be 2 or 3 thanks to Shadow Evocation shennaniganry.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Aemoh87
Don't change anything, just banned what breaks the game and hope your players can accept that their ultimate wizard build doesn't need to show up at the table. There is no fix for tier one other than players not playing it up to snuff.
Am I missing the whole entire Tier boat here? This seems to be the solution for when things get out of hand, and with my group, things very rarely get out of hand.
I didn't even know a tier system existed until I started reading this forum regularly, just the general vague "Spellcasters outclass mundane at teens levels". Even then, nobody ever balked at playing the horridly T5 fighter, because the T5 fighter had a job to do in the party, did it well, and everyone had a good time.
It seems like there's a ton of RAW, even marginally RAI abuses that account for the vast majority of the T1/T2 designations, and that it's the intentional effort on the part of some players to "win at D&D" that account for the power discrepancy.
Open spell list (Wizard, Cleric, Druid) coupled with years and thousands of printed spells = potential for abuse. Realized abuse is where the problem lies.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Rogue Shadows
Identify specifies that the 100-gp pearl material component is crushed and mixed with wine, and this admixture is drank, as part of the spell.
This tells me two things.
1) Now I know why adventurers make a beeline for the nearest tavern after every adventure;
2) The intoxication rules from the Arms & Equipment Guide are going to do work next time I run a game.
There's also about a dozen ways to ID stuff without resorting to the arcane version of Identify. The most common/rules-accessible would probably be, spiraling out from Core: Magic domain spell, level 2; Cloistered Clerics get it as an addition to their lists at level 1; Artificer's Monocle (MIC) lets you turn Detect Magic into an Identify if you have enough Know: Arcana; MIC also has rules for identifying an object with just Detect Magic + a high enough Spellcraft check; Dragonfire Adepts can select Identify as one of their Invocations, which ignore components as a spell-like ability. Probably most efficient to hunt down a Cloistered Cleric and pay him to spend a morning ID'ing your stuff.
Also, I'd note that Identify takes an hour to cast. Unless you decide that it takes an entire bottle/skin's worth of wine to cast Identify, 1 cup of wine/hour is not significantly like to make anybody drunk.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Andorax
It seems like there's a ton of RAW, even marginally RAI abuses that account for the vast majority of the T1/T2 designations, and that it's the intentional effort on the part of some players to "win at D&D" that account for the power discrepancy.
No, it's obvious what wild shape and time stop and shapechange were meant to do. The problem is that WotC didn't playtest anything.
In an article I saw on the WotC website, the guy who wrote it, who works for WotC, said:
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So I thought I'd get a group together and see how 3.5 actually played.
Which means they didn't playtest a single thing.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
tyckspoon
Also, I'd note that Identify takes an hour to cast. Unless you decide that it takes an entire bottle/skin's worth of wine to cast Identify, 1 cup of wine/hour is not significantly like to make anybody drunk.
Actually it is essentially impossible according to those selfsame intoxication rules to get drunk if it's limited to 1/hour...
*sigh*
Stupid casting time ruining all our fun. I say "our" fun because when I pointed this out to my players they thought it was hilarious and were looking forward to what would happen...
...I might house-rule reduce the casting time of identify.
On second though, no, that's just contrived.
*sigh...*
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Originally Posted by
Swiftmongoose
No, it's obvious what wild shape and time stop and shapechange were meant to do. The problem is that WotC didn't playtest anything.
Actually they playtested a lot for the Core...just not anything past 12th level, as I understand it. And a lot of later stuff wasn't playtested at all...
Either that or they did playtest everything, but they don't understand that "playtesting" doesn't mean "playing a game of D&D," it means "take these rules that we have made for D&D and try to break them in half. If we can do this easily, it needs to be refined."
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Rogue Shadows
Actually they playtested a lot...just not anything past 12th level, as I understand it.
No, I think that's Paizo.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swiftmongoose
No, it's obvious what wild shape and time stop and shapechange were meant to do. The problem is that WotC didn't playtest anything.
In an article I saw on the WotC website, the guy who wrote it, who works for WotC, said:
Which means they didn't playtest a single thing.
They essentially thought that things were going to be the same as AD&D and it wasn't. Also there was limited play testing but once again they played like they did in AD&D (blasting wizards and healing clerics).
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Swiftmongoose
No, I think that's Paizo.
Oh. Well, see my edited-in second point, then.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
One thing that occurred to me once to bring the high Tiers down a bit (or rather Wizards, which were the ones I was thinking about) is to mess with the spell schools:
Properly divide them in what they do, possibly even creating/changing some schools and then make every Wizard choose 3 or so (they get the extra spell slot of specialist for any of the given schools) and be locked out of the other ones, having to spend a feat to have access to them (and possibly gain one or 2 as class features).
Not sure if it wouldn't make Wizards too underpowered, but it aims to fix their main issue of being able to do everything at once without heavy stat or feat investment, which is the main issue since a Fighter can't be a god with, board+sword, 2H weapons, archery and combat maneuvers all at the same time, while the Wizard 'can'.
The Sorcerer (and similar casters) does not have such issues seeing as they're already closer to balance due to limited spell list.
It can be made to work with Clerics by dividing their spells by type too, so only a Cleric with access to War Domain can actually cause damage with their spells or something...I really only thought about the Wizard, so this Cleric mention is just a spur of the moment and can be quite imbalanced.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Larpus
It can be made to work with Clerics by dividing their spells by type too, so only a Cleric with access to War Domain can actually cause damage with their spells or something...I really only thought about the Wizard, so this Cleric mention is just a spur of the moment and can be quite imbalanced.
One thought I had with the Cleric was making them able to choose more Domains as they levelled up, eventually capping out at, say, five Domains...and that's it. No other sources of spells.
Of course, they get more uses of Domain spells per day.
This seemed too harsh, though. Still. There's something to that.
As for your school suggestion...I like it. The first time: move Read Magic into the "Universal" school so that Divination can function like a proper school again.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Rogue Shadows
Actually it is essentially impossible according to those selfsame intoxication rules to get drunk if it's limited to 1/hour...
Actually... Since the relevant rule is based on glasses per hour, you just need to make sure you bring a really small glass and require large amounts of wine. And remember, the spell won't get any worse if you use too much wine.
"...Hey, um, you've been at this spell for quite a while, do you need any help?"
"BE QUIET I NEEDSH MY FULL HOUR! IT TAKES A CONCENTRATION TO CAST!"
"Could... Could you spare some of that for the rest of us while we wait?"
"SHADDUP I NEEDSH EVERY DROP -hic-"
"...Dude, I think you have a problem."
"DO YOU WANT TO KNOW IF THIS IS AN AMINALATED SHIELD OR NOT!?"
"That's not a shield. That's a door. All of the shields have been doors. We're getting worried about you. Seriously."
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Larpus
One thing that occurred to me once to bring the high Tiers down a bit (or rather Wizards, which were the ones I was thinking about) is to mess with the spell schools:
Properly divide them in what they do, possibly even creating/changing some schools and then make every Wizard choose 3 or so (they get the extra spell slot of specialist for any of the given schools) and be locked out of the other ones, having to spend a feat to have access to them (and possibly gain one or 2 as class features).
Not sure if it wouldn't make Wizards too underpowered, but it aims to fix their main issue of being able to do everything at once without heavy stat or feat investment, which is the main issue since a Fighter can't be a god with, board+sword, 2H weapons, archery and combat maneuvers all at the same time, while the Wizard 'can'.
That's a nice idea. Wizards can still be wizards without automatically rolfstomping everything.
However, some people will still pick schools that are really potent. Transmutation for Shape-change, Conjuration for summons and gate.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Seerow
You really think the crusader mechanic would work well for a full caster?
I've been thinking about taking several various houserules/ideas I have and making a new system where every power source (Divine, Arcane, Martial, possibly Ki/Psionic) has its own unique resource mechanic, but I've been stuck wondering what the hell to do with Divine given that it's always been "Just like arcane magic, but with healing!"
Not the ToB Crusader, the CD PRC. Basically they would get just domain spells/day. Then modify the domains so they are more balanced.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Zale
However, some people will still pick schools that are really potent. Transmutation for Shape-change, Conjuration for summons and gate.
That would be solvable either by carefully shuffling the schools of spells, possibly make things like Conjuration (summoning/calling) a separate subschool that has to be chosen on its own, or potentially by reviving the idea of opposed schools but with an eye to game balance instead of trying to make sense of a fluff reason these schools are opposed- if you choose to know Conjuration, you cannot also select Transmutation and vice-versa. Relatively simple solution, but it's a pretty inelegant hack from an in-world view and in the rules; none of the other schools really need to be balanced that way.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Zale
That's a nice idea. Wizards can still be wizards without automatically rolfstomping everything.
However, some people will still pick schools that are really potent. Transmutation for Shape-change, Conjuration for summons and gate.
Yeah, I thought about that too.
Maybe a fix is to separate the schools also into 'tiers' per say, and make it so you cannot have more than 1 'tier 1' as your starting schools ('tier 1' would be the powerful schools).
Alternatively, break such schools further since they have many different subschools and make such subschools schools themselves, so a Wizard can still be the king of transmutation, but that's all he's gonna be without spending more.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Larpus
Yeah, I thought about that too.
Maybe a fix is to separate the schools also into 'tiers' per say, and make it so you cannot have more than 1 'tier 1' as your starting schools ('tier 1' would be the powerful schools).
Alternatively, break such schools further since they have many different subschools and make such subschools schools themselves, so a Wizard can still be the king of transmutation, but that's all he's gonna be without spending more.
Hmm...
I can't help but think about Shadowcastes right now for some reason. Not sure why, or how to implement it...but they're on my mind.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
Using Bard progression on T1 and T2 casters is a pretty easy and effective fix to make, expanding it slightly to give 1st level spells at 1st level. I'd increase the number of spells they get by 1 for all entries, just because they wouldn't have enough interesting things to do for a far too large span of their career with a truer Bard progression.
This sounds really heavy-handed, but the powerful spells are surprisingly appropriate for the levels you'd get them at. The versatility - and yes, the power - that a T1/T2 spellcaster would still retain over others would still generally keep at least the T1s a cut above the rest despite it all, but not nearly to the degree where it becomes a problem. Obviously psionic T1/T2 classes take the same reduction in the maximum level of power they can know, but they might also need a loss of PP progression (roughly to a psion of 2/3 your level, but it would need work).
Bards and other pseudo-casters with low progressions might at first glance need reduction to account for the full-casters coming down to their level, but the reality of it is that they don't have nearly as awesome spell lists as their big brothers, who remain the focused masters of magic by the power of their spells rather than the numbers on their chart.
Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Warmages and others might pose a bit of a problem afterward with their progression to 9ths, with things like Evard's Black Tentacles still on their lists coming early and strong. It's probably not that bad though, and makes them appealing as 'strong specialist' options, less versatile but more powerful (which was their raison d'être all along anyway).
Wierd as this sounds, as a caster I would probably have more fun because you could finally take off the white gloves and break out cool overpowered non-spell caster options like DMM, Abrupt Jaunt and Uncanny Forethought without reservation.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
FMArthur
Using Bard progression on T1 and T2 casters is a pretty easy and effective fix to make, expanding it slightly to give 1st level spells at 1st level. I'd increase the number of spells they get by 1 for all entries, just because they wouldn't have enough interesting things to do for a far too large span of their career with a truer Bard progression.
I did something like this, though the way I accomplished it was by increasing the rate they gain spell levels from every 2 levels to every 3 levels - So 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th, for a total of 8 total spell levels (0-7).
The Sorcerer doesn't notice the difference at first, because Sorcerers don't get 2nd-level spells until level 4 anyway...
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
In all honesty, and I do understand it may be a bit besides the point here, I feel compelled to point out that players break the game, not classes. I have dm-ed high level T1 casters that would rip my game apart, but I also dm-ed those that were as 'harmless' as an optimized ranger or barbarian as well as those that would use their powers to enhance the group.
DnD is a team sport. If you have a team and a wizard/druid/etc., then you have a problem. But if you have a team of which a druid/wizard/etc is part of, then there is no real problem. My point being: if a players intends to play a T1 caster talk to him/her. Make clear you have a spotlight to shine on each member. Make clear that if he/she wants to go around and ninja every sparkle of spotlight-light and deform your intentions and campaign through his abilities, there is no place for him/her in the campaign.
That solves the issue for me pretty much allways and calls for banning/adjusting of only the most obvious few things.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
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Originally Posted by
Autopsibiofeeder
DnD is a team sport. If you have a team and a wizard/druid/etc., then you have a problem. But if you have a team of which a druid/wizard/etc is part of, then there is no real problem. My point being: if a players intends to play a T1 caster talk to him/her. Make clear you have a spotlight to shine on each member. Make clear that if he/she wants to go around and ninja every sparkle of spotlight-light and deform your intentions and campaign through his abilities, there is no place for him/her in the campaign.
You know what's weird?
You don't really ever have to worry about this happening with Warmages and Healers.
Just sayin'.
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Re: Fixing Tier 1 is pointless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Autopsibiofeeder
In all honesty, and I do understand it may be a bit besides the point here, I feel compelled to point out that players break the game, not classes. I have dm-ed high level T1 casters that would rip my game apart, but I also dm-ed those that were as 'harmless' as an optimized ranger or barbarian as well as those that would use their powers to enhance the group.
DnD is a team sport. If you have a team and a wizard/druid/etc., then you have a problem. But if you have a team of which a druid/wizard/etc is part of, then there is no real problem. My point being: if a players intends to play a T1 caster talk to him/her. Make clear you have a spotlight to shine on each member. Make clear that if he/she wants to go around and ninja every sparkle of spotlight-light and deform your intentions and campaign through his abilities, there is no place for him/her in the campaign.
That solves the issue for me pretty much allways and calls for banning/adjusting of only the most obvious few things.
Sure, but the idea behind fixing it is that there would not be that chance that things go horribly wrong, and the players don't feel like they need to hold back to keep the game in line. Groups that already manage just fine wouldn't stop doing so if you implemented a fix, it just means the ground on which they tread would feel sturdier, and character changes/new players are not so much a gamble.
This is, of course, assuming the fix was good. I can see that it might seem risky to try some, or arduous for the really inelegant ones.