Samurai has an archetype of its own: the "sword saint". (Not a particularly impressive archetype, IMO, but good if you absolutely don't want a pet following you around.)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alte...es/sword-saint
Samurai has an archetype of its own: the "sword saint". (Not a particularly impressive archetype, IMO, but good if you absolutely don't want a pet following you around.)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alte...es/sword-saint
Took a break for the holidays but back at it once more, adding Half-Orc archetypes, which in turn update the Rogue/Ninja section, among other things. Turns out there is an archetype that combos with Synthesists: Blood God Disciples, though it looks mostly useless to me. I slightly rejiggered how Ninjas are included in the Rogue section so it was more obvious of the archetypes that are valid for Ninjas, so go forth and make Ninja Bandits, just... you may wish to steer clear of Ninja Trapsmiths. They can work, they just don't work as well on Ninjas...
Sections updated: Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue(Ninja), Summoner, Witch, Wizard
Sections Remaining: Cavalier(Samurai), Monk, Sorcerer
Fantastically useful thread. I appreciate your effort in making it, and keeping it updated. Thank you.
Noticed that you have a mistake on Witches... Beast-Bonded and Bonded Witch (Half-Elf) are NOT compatible. One alters your familiar, the other replaces it. That aside, your list looks good and overall has been useful these past few days (though, I did double check when I noticed the witch mistake, only one I found)
You are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsolutGrndZer0
But even if you _could_ combine them, you wouldn't want to, as it would just make Beast Bonded a complete and utter waste of time and space.
Yeah, though there are many players who say it already is. +1 level for familiar abilities isn't much useful, definitely not worth what you lose for it, and if you take Improved Familiar (which why wouldn't you, especially with an archetype based on your bond with your familiar? Even on characters that I don't want some exotic creature, I usually take IF to give them the planar template) then... you pretty much lose the ability to turn into things related to your familiar, unless you go with a simple celestial/fiendish standard animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
Beast-bonded is a back-loaded archetype, there is very little payoff up front. This makes it look worse than it might otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsolutGrndZer0
Being able to give your Familiar a feat is possibly useful, as they don't normally get feats.
Familiar form at level 8 has possibilities as a budget Wild-Shape.
Twin Soul can be potentially VERY handy as a "get out of death free"-card. But the best use only comes up in a worst case scenario, and exactly how it works is open to some interpretation. I'm assuming you can still commune with your Familiar to get your spells for the day, but if you are in your Familiar's body, then you still probably need hands to use most of those spells.
Well, right not saying the Transfer Feats is not useful, it very much is... but the +1 level bump? That's lame. I once however talked a GM into letting me have a wolf as a familiar in trade for that +1 level bump (prior to that level, my wolf had the young template)Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
But yeah, overall it's very back-loaded which means that unless you are sure you are going to be playing significantly past level 10, might not be worth it. Plus, the biggest complaint those who don't like it have remains true, if you take Improved Familiar as anything other than a Celestial/Fiendish animal, you lose the Familiar Form option, at least as written.
That's a case of an unoptimal archetype combination, as opposed to an illegal one. Nowhere in Beast-Bonded does it say that Transfer Feats changes the feature like it normally would, like Empyreal Knight Paladins having the statement for Divine Bond: 'This ability otherwise functions as the paladin ability of the same name.'. I do not suggest being a Beast-Bonded/Bonded Witch without some way of getting a familiar, like Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), as otherwise you're axing Hexs to improve an ability you don't have but you otherwise can be one within RAW.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsolutGrndZer0
Now that ACG is out, can we start updating this?
(Also, general question - does the ability "Diminshed Spellcasting" really count as a modification or replacement of the"Spells" class feature? It is not called out as such. I may take that to the QA thread.)
Here's the few I looked at so far:
Alchemist:
Inspired ChemistACG
Features Replaced: Mutagen
Valid Archetypes: Beastmorph, Blazing Torchbearer, Chirurgeon, Clone Master, Grenadier, Internal Alchemist, Preservationist, Psychonaut, Ragechemist, Reanimator, Trap Breaker, Visionary Researcher, Vivisectionist, Bogborn Alchemist (Grippli), Deep Bomber (Svirfneblin), Fire Bomber (Goblin)
Barbarian: None
Bard:
Flame DancerACG
Features Replaced: Countersong, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Dirge of Doom
Valid Archetypes: Daredevil, Detective, Dirge Bard, Geisha, Lotus Geisha, Negotiator, Songhealer
Voice of the WildACG
Features Replaced: Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Versatile Performance, Jack of All Trades, Inspire Competence, Dirge of Doom, Inspire Heroics
Valid Archetypes: Demagogue, Prankster (Gnome). (ED: Darn, this one was so close to working with Animal Speaker!)
Cavalier:
Daring ChampionACG
Features Replaced: Weapon & Armor Proficiency, Mount, Cavalier's Charge, Expert Trainer, Mighty Charge, Supreme Charge
Valid Archetypes: None
Cleric:
EcclesitheurgeACG
Features Replaced: Weapon & Armor Proficiency, Channel Energy (3rd), Domains
Valid Archetypes: None
Magus:
Eldritch ScionACG
Features Replaced: Spells, Spell Recall, Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, Knowledge Pool, Improved Spell Combat, Greater Spell Combat
Valid Archetypes: Spellblade, Staff Magus, Fiend Flayer (tiefling)
Need to acquire a copy myself yet, though I'm off work next week and this was one of the projects I was thinking on getting back to, so strong possibility I'll possibly finish the ARG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyren
It is modifying Spellcasting, which I believe was my reasoning. I can think on that some and if you get a reasonable answer, that would sway me to change how these are working in the guide.Quote:
(Also, general question - does the ability "Diminished Spellcasting" really count as a modification or replacement of the"Spells" class feature? It is not called out as such. I may take that to the QA thread.)
Cool, I'll add these when I get the time.Quote:
Here's the few I looked at so far:
Alchemist:
Inspired ChemistACG
Features Replaced: Mutagen
Valid Archetypes: Beastmorph, Blazing Torchbearer, Chirurgeon, Clone Master, Grenadier, Internal Alchemist, Preservationist, Psychonaut, Ragechemist, Reanimator, Trap Breaker, Visionary Researcher, Vivisectionist, Bogborn Alchemist (Grippli), Deep Bomber (Svirfneblin), Fire Bomber (Goblin)
Barbarian: None
Bard:
Flame DancerACG
Features Replaced: Countersong, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Dirge of Doom
Valid Archetypes: Daredevil, Detective, Dirge Bard, Geisha, Lotus Geisha, Negotiator, Songhealer
Voice of the WildACG
Features Replaced: Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Versatile Performance, Jack of All Trades, Inspire Competence, Dirge of Doom, Inspire Heroics
Valid Archetypes: Demagogue, Prankster (Gnome). (ED: Darn, this one was so close to working with Animal Speaker!)
Cavalier:
Daring ChampionACG
Features Replaced: Weapon & Armor Proficiency, Mount, Cavalier's Charge, Expert Trainer, Mighty Charge, Supreme Charge
Valid Archetypes: None
Cleric:
EcclesitheurgeACG
Features Replaced: Weapon & Armor Proficiency, Channel Energy (3rd), Domains
Valid Archetypes: None
Magus:
Eldritch ScionACG
Features Replaced: Spells, Spell Recall, Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, Knowledge Pool, Improved Spell Combat, Greater Spell Combat
Valid Archetypes: Spellblade, Staff Magus, Fiend Flayer (tiefling)
Hello Cieyrin! I am a long time fan of your list, and I've decided to finally give back by signing up and helping you out, if that's not to presumptuous of me. Mainly this is a finish of Psyren's ACG list, might do Inner Sea Combat later if I have time. Anyone who wants to call me on my math, go right ahead because I may have got something wrong. (I am excluding the hybrid classes for now, just for simplicitys sake.)
Spoiler: Druid
Feral ShifterACG
Features Replaced: Nature Bond, Venom Immunity, A Thousand Faces, Timeless Body
Valid Archetypes: Wild Whisperer
Nature FangACG
Features Replaced: Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Wild Shape, Resist Nature's Lure, Venom Immunity
Valid Archetypes: None
Wild WhispererACG
Features Replaced: Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Wild Shape,
Valid Archetypes: Feral Shifter
Spoiler: Fighter
Martial MasterACG
Features Replaced: Weapon Training, Weapon Mastery
Valid Archetypes: Gladiator, Mutation Warrior
Mutation WarriorACG
Features Replaced: Armor Training, Armor Mastery
Valid Archetypes: Gladiator, Martial Master
Spoiler: Gunslinger
Bolt AceACG
Features Replaced: Grit, Deeds (Deadeye, Quick Clear, Utility Shot, Startling Shot, Expert Loading, Lightning Reload, Menacing Shot), Gun Training
Valid Archetypes: Gun Tank
Spoiler: Inquisitor
Sacred HuntsmasterACG
Features Replaced: Judgement, Second Judgement, Third Judgement, Slayer, True Judgement
Valid Archetypes: Heretic, Infiltrator, Preacher, Sin Eater
Sanctified SlayerACG
Features Replaced: Judgement, Second Judgement, Third Judgement, Slayer, True Judgement
Valid Archetypes: Heretic, Infiltrator, Preacher, Sin Eater
Spoiler: Monk
Kata MasterACG
Features Replaced: Stunning Fist, Still Mind, Ki Pool, Wholeness of Body, Quivering Palm
Valid Archetypes: Master of Many Styles, Monk of the Sacred Mountain, Tetori
Monk Vows/Monastic Legacy?: No
WildcatACG
Features Replaced: Still Mind, Ki Pool, High Jump, Slow Fall, Bonus Feats, Improved Evasion, Abundant Step, Diamond Body, Empty Body
Valid Archetypes: None
Monk Vows/Monastic Legacy?: No
Spoiler: Oracle
Psychic SearcherACG
Features Replaced: Bonus Spells, Revelation (3rd)
Valid Archetypes: Warsighted
Spirit GuideACG
Features Replaced: Bonus Skills, Revelation (3rd, 7th, 15th)
Valid Archetypes: Possessed Oracle, Ancient Lorekeeper (Elf)
WarsightedACG
Features Replaced: Revelation (1st, 7th, 11th, 15th)
Valid Archetypes: Planer Oracle, Psychic Searcher, Ancient Lorekeeper (Elf)
Spoiler: Paladin
Holy GuideACG
Features Replaced: Class Skills, Mercy (3rd, 5th)
Valid Archetypes: Holy Gun, Holy Tactician, Hospitaler, Redeemer (Half-Orc), Sacred Servant, Sacred Shield, Shining Knight, Temple Guardian, Undead Scourge, Warrior of the Holy Light
Valid Oaths: All except Undeath
By the way, Holy Guide once again proves that no one can correctly edit a Paladin Archetype. I’m pretty sure the Mercy you “lose” at 5th level is supposed to be from 6th level.
Temple GuardianACG
Features Replaced: Spells, Divine Bond, Aura of Justice
Valid Archetypes: Holy Guide
Valid Oaths: Fiends, Chastity, Loyalty
Spoiler: RangerDivine TrackerACG
Features Replaced: Wild Empathy, Hunter’s Bond
Valid Archetypes: Deep Walker, Infiltrator, Shapeshifter, Urban Ranger,
Hooded ChampionACG
Features Replaced: Favored Enemy (1st), Combat Style, Wild Empathy, Endurance, Evasion, Improved Evasion
Valid Archetypes: Battle Scout, Deep Walker, Infiltrator, Spirit Ranger
Wild HunterACG
Features Replaced: Favored Enemy, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker
Valid Archetypes: Beast Master, Divine Tracker, Falconer, Horse Lord, Shapeshifter, Spirit Ranger, Trophy Hunter
Spoiler: RogueCounterfeit MageACG
Features Replaced: Trapfinding, Rogue Talent (4th)
Valid Archetypes: Bandit, Burgler, Sanctified Rogue, Scroll Scoundrel, Trapsmith
Underground ChemistACG
Features Replaced: Evasion, Rogue Talent (4th), Advanced Talents
Valid Archetypes: Any except Counterfeit Mage
Spoiler: SorcererEldritch ScrapperACG
Features Replaced: Bloodline Power (1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th)
Valid Archetypes: None
Mongrel MageACG
Features Replaced: Bloodline, Bloodline Powers, Bloodline Spells, Bloodline Feats (7th, 13th, 19th)
Valid Archetypes: None
Spoiler: SummonerNaturalistACG
Features Replaced: Summon Monster, Shield Ally, Greater Shield Ally, Aspect, Life Bond, Greater Aspect
Valid Archetypes: Broodmaster
Spirit SummonerACG
Features Replaced: Summon Monster, Eidolon, Aspect, Maker’s Call, Merge Forms, Transposition
Valid Archetypes: None
Spoiler: WitchHex ChannelerACG
Features Replaced: Hex (2nd)
Valid Archetypes: Beast-Bonded, Bonded Witch (Half-Elf), Hedge Witch, Sea Witch
Mountain WitchACG
Features Replaced: Patron Spells, Hex (2nd)
Valid Archetypes: Bonded Witch (Half-Elf)
Spoiler: WizardExploiter WizardACG
Features Replaced: Arcane Bond, Arcane School
Valid Archetypes: None
Spell SageACG
Features Replaced: Arcane Bond, Arcane School
Valid Archetypes: None
Spirit WhispererACG
Features Replaced: Arcane Bond, Spellbook, Arcane School, Bonus Feats (20th)
Valid Archetypes: None
Not presumptuous, I was waiting till I got a copy but my local bookshop either lost my number or they can't seem to get a copy of the ACG, so I'll add stuff in when I finally get time to sit and work on things.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaman of ohio
Only took me almost a year to get back around to updating stuff again. Added Halfling archetypes in, which gave the pleasant surprise that Martial Artist/Underfoot Adept Monks actually work. Sohei Monks got downgraded to not working with anything I've looked at besides Qinggong and have been updated as such. Now that my notes are finally fully updated (except Sorcerers...), I should be able to blow through the rest of the ARG this week and use the ACG notes when I crack that book open.
You're doing God's work here. I've used this before with my guides, although I was sad when it felt like this was abandoned. I might be adding sections to my guides about what archetypes stack, and your guide has been a huge amount of help.
Thank you very much for keeping this updated, this is an incredibly useful resource for making builds.
Familiar Folio was added to the SRD (though it's pretty unorganized right now). I'm going to make a list of what combos between the 7 here and the 3 in Animal Archive are valid.
Archetype Intelligence Natural armor Alertness Improved evasion Share spells Empathic link Deliver touch spells Speak with master Speak with animals of its kind Spell resistance Scry on familiar Infiltrator X X A X A ? Pilferer X X X X Valet X A X X Decoy X X X X Emissary X X X Figment X X X X Mascot X X A A X X X X Mauler X X X X X Protector X X X X X Sage X X X
And after all that work I find out that the only two which combine are Figment and Sage. Yay?
From the Familiar Folio
Alchemist:
HomunculistFF
Features Replaced: Poison Use, Poison Resistance, Poison Immunity, Swift poisoning, Mutagen
Valid Archetypes: Vivisectionist, Bogborn Alchemist (Grippli)
Bard:
DuettistFF
Features Replaced: Well-versed, Jack-of-all-Trades, Bardic Knowledge, Versatile Performance, Lore Master, Dirge of Doom, Frightening Tune
Valid Archetypes: Sound Striker, Shadow Puppeteer (Wayang)
A new meaning to the word nova; Sound Striker Duettist Bard.
Druid:
Leshy WardenFF
Features Replaced: Nature's Bond, Wild Empathy, Wild Shape, A Thousand Faces
Valid Archetypes: Cave Druid, Reincarnated Druid, Urban Druid, World Walker
Fighter:
Eldritch GuardianFF
Features Replaced: 1st, 2nd level Fighter bonus feats, Bravery
Valid Archetypes: Aldori Swordlord, Brawler, Crossbowman, Cyber-Soldier, Dawnflower Dervish, Martial Master, Mutation Warrior, Shielded Fighter, Thunderstriker, Trench Fighter, Two-Weapon Warrior, Foehammer (Dwarf)
Magus:
BeastbladeFF
Features Replaced: 3rd level Magus arcana, Spell Recall, Knowledge Pool, Improved Spell Recall
Valid Archetypes: Greensting Slayer, Kapenia Dancer, Spellblade, Staff Magus, Fiend Flayer (Tiefling), Spell Dancer (Elf)
Paladin:
Chosen OneFF
Features Replaced: Class skills, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Channel Positive Energy, Divine Bond
Valid Archetypes: Holy Guide, Shining Knight, Undead Scourge, Warrior of the Holy Light, Oaths (against Corruption, Fiends, Grotesquery, the Wyrm, Undeath)
Wizard:
Familiar AdeptFF
Features Replaced: Scribe Scroll, Spellbooks, Arcane Bond, 5th, 10th level Wizard bonus feats, lose access to one school of magic
Valid Archetypes: Thassilonian Specialist (maybe)
Pact WizardFF
Features Replaced: Arcane Bond, Arcane School, lose access to one school of magic
Valid Archetypes: Thassilonian Specialist (maybe)
Spirit BinderFF
Features Replaced: Arcane Bond, Arcane School (can't select necromancy as opposition school), Scribe Scroll, all Wizard bonus feats
Valid Archetypes: Thassilonian Specialist (Gluttony, Greed, Pride, Sloth or Wrath only.)
Witch:
SynergistFF
Features Replaced: Familiar, 1st, 8th, 14th level hexes
Valid Archetypes: Hag of Gyronna, Hex Channeler, Medium, Mountain Witch, Veneficus Witch, Dreamweaver (Changeling)
There are a few other archetypes out there from splat books and such. Any intention of adding them to the list? Top of my mind is the Kapenia Dancer, from the Varisia book.
My plans, such as they are, were to finally finish the ARG, detour into Inner Sea Combat and Magic, and then go into the Advanced Class Guide. Familiar Folio, since it was pretty much done for me (thanks, avr and deuxhero), will get pasted as-is.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy
Thanks for this list, it is awsome :)
Arcanist
Brown-Fur Transmuter
Features replaced: Arcanist Exploit 3&9, Magical Supremacy
Valid archetypes: Spell Specialist, Unletered Arcanist, Twilight Sage
Unletered Arcanist
Features replaced: Spells, Spellbook
Valid Archetypes: Blade Adept, Blood Arcanist, Brown-Fur Transmuter, Elemental Master, School Savant, Spell Specialist, Twilight Sage, White Mage
Eldritch Font
Features Replaced: Spells, Cantrips, Arcanist Exploits 3-7-13, Magical Supremacy
Valid Archetypes:White Mage
White Mage
Features Replaced: Archanist Exploits 1&9, Greater Exploits
Valid Archetypes: Eldritch Font, Unletered Arcanist
So, I started working on a side project where updating this guide was useful, so now there's Investigator archetypes in, up to Ultimate Wilderness. To note, I lost my notes again (hard drive failure does that :smallfrown:), but the Archives of Nethys has archetypes listed so nicely to make it somewhat simpler to parse info.
I can't promise this is necessarily a revival of the guide and I have had PMs in the past about others wanting to help populate the guide, so I think I should officially grant my blessing if folk want to take the info from here and expand on it in a new guide if that's wished. Just link back here if someone wants to take on that kind of project in the future. I can share the Google Docs I'm now using upon request as well.
Happy Gaming! :smallbiggrin:
Bloodragers are in, which forced me to spill into the second post, which is now home to Rogues onward, plus deuxhero's mini Famaliar archetype table (belated thanks for that), which is as of Familiar Folio, so may be revisited for how things stand in Ultimate Wilderness. Progress, I suppose.
As for Crossblooded Bloodragers, since that is a similar choice to Crossblooded Sorcerers, I wrote it as RAW suggests, that it alters the bloodline, so I will revisit that section in the future. That also means that Crossblooded Ragers aren't compatible with Prowlers or Id Ragers. I think Rageshaping Prowlers are viable, which is pretty awesome in my book, though.
3/22: Don't feel like triple posting but Slayers are in. Not much to speak on them, other than Snipers having a free ability by RAW that by all intents appears to supposed to replace a talent, so that's noted.
3/27: Swashbucklers are in.
4/2: Brawlers updated. They didn't do a lot of proofreading in Brawler archetypes, sadly. :smallannoyed:
6/27: Added Mediums. A lot of reading to figure out none stack with each other.
7/13: Added Occultists, which had me do some mental gymnastics with Reliquarian, which is the only one that stacks. Reliquarian is kinda... not as good as it should be, so essentially nothing stacks archetype-wise for Occultists besides. Rangers got punted to post #2 because of Occultist pushing the character limit.
2019
3/8: Updated Alchemists, which required shuffling Medium through Paladin to post #2 for character limit reasons. Lots of archetype interactions there. Interesting note: Svirfneblin, as Humanoids with the Gnome subtype, can take both Deep Bomber and Saboteur but it doesn't work in the other direction. So that's neat. A different observation is that Ragechemist works with a lot of archetypes that don't benefit from it, mostly those that change their mutagen to a specialty one. Not that Ragechemist is great, anyways, but it can be a bigger trap if you want it to be.
4/8: Added new sources (Ultimate Intrigue, Horror Adventures, Villain Codex being the primary ones), which updated Alchemist again. I'll hit the other recently updated sections with the new sources soon. Investigator and Magus got shuffled to post #2 as part of the update. I will probably hit reserved post #3 soon enough.
4/10: Bloodragers, Brawlers, Investigators updated. Investigators was redone, as it was easier than updating with the shuffle of archetypes that do combo with newer content.
4/11: Occultists redone, due to new content making some combos valid like Investigators had happen.
4/15: Slayers redone. Nothing else to really report.
4/16: Swashbuckler redone. That's the last of where my current notes cover, so prolly be a bit before new updates.
Love the guide! It's been a great asset for creating characters & getting ideas to flesh out concepts so they work mechanically not just flavorfully.
I just have 1 question...I've noticed a lot of the alternate classes in the list but not the Hunter...did that 1 somehow get skipped or lost somewhere along the way?
It's kinda been updated as I've had time and interest to do so; interest lately has been for a campaign setting I'm building that's low magic and without the divine, so Hunter wasn't high on my list. The ACG classes don't have as many archetypes, so I could knock it out next time I get the fey mood to work on the guide again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psykotik_Dragon
Willing and able to help as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Cieyrin
Fair enough. As I said, thanks for the help as-is, it just seemed a curious oversight lol. Really interested in playing a hunter for my 1st PFS character so was looking around for some info on the archetypes but wasn't seeing anything useful beyond "it has a few archetypes" lol
Start a separate thread for that character and you'll likely get some help. Personally I find the Teamwork feats to be the most lackluster part of Hunter, so I like archetypes that dump them like Divine Hunter, Patient Ambusher or Courtly Hunter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psykotik_Dragon