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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Talakeal
As a general rule what does more "damage", a rifle or a shotgun (assuming the weapons are of similar size and that the target is within effective range of the shotgun)?
Short answer: it depends.
Longer answer: It depends on what rifle is being used - calibers range from .17 HMR to .50 or even larger. From the shotgun's point of view, it depends on both gauge and type of ammunition. Common gauges range from .410 to 12. Ammunition ranges from #8 bird shot to 1 oz slugs. In other words, there's a lot of variety.
Perhaps a more useful answer - rifles always have the potential to be deadly within their effective range. However, the smaller the caliber of the bullet the more accurate (or lucky) you'll need to be. (That's a general guide not a rule. Some types may be deadlier than a larger caliber due to larger loads of powder.)
With a shotgun, shot size tends to matter more than gauge. Bird shot and lighter will create some ugly flesh wounds but usually won't penetrate enough to kill anything larger than a rabbit or bird. You need #3 or larger to get the penetration needed for zombie sized targets.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
With warhammers, which times is it more advisable to use the spike, and which times is it better to use the hammer? I can imagine the hammer part being better against plate armours, and maybe the spike being better against textile armours?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Other way around. The spike is for penetrating hard plates.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
It depends on the objective; if you want to kill the guy, the spike is of course better for penetrating and causing efficient damage to vital organs, but killing people doesn't get you ransom money, and using the spiked end means you risk getting stuck in some annoying places, such as an opponents shield or even in some (relatively) non-vital part of the body. Also, if you want to unhorse somebody, the blunt end may be preferable, because if the spiky end penetrates, but doesn't knock the rider down, then you lost a weapon and probably caused decent to serious damage to your own arm unless you drop it immeadiatly.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I don't think anyone can really know for sure, but basically spike is obviosuly something that gives best chance get pushed trough something that's hard to pierce... Helmets, armor, maybe even shields.
A lot of weapons with backspike had appeared way before the plate, so it's hard to draw direct connection.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
for the warhammer, the bunt end is what you want to use 90% of the time, against lightly armored opponents it is very deadly, against heavily armored opponents its still very deadly. It wont penetrate plate but it can easily cause signifigant trama to the head and chest without going through the armor, as well as breaking any bone at the site of the impact. The spike is something you might use against an opponent in single combat, or to finish off a downed enemy, the reason for this being that it is very easy to get the spike stuck in the target and effectivly disarm yourself.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
huttj509
Anyone who's taller/shorter/faster/more stable/etc. than the norm has an advantage if they've trained to make use of it.
I think it boils down to a combination of factors that both you and Spiryt have mentioned. In free sparring, I usually have a mass or strength advantage over my opponents regardless of their height (I have the typical short stocky build), so I'm very used to fighting people taller, (sometimes to almost ridiculous levels - one bloke had somewhere in the region of 7-8 inches in height over me, but I still weighed a good stone more than him), while they have very limited experience fighting somebody so short.
The various styles I've studied also probably don't highlight the height/reach advantages so much.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
You're also fighting people who don't really want to hurt you.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xuc Xac
You're also fighting people who don't really want to hurt you.
I don't really want to hurt them either, so I guess it evens out.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
How effective are martial arts styles like Judo that can unbalance an opponent during a knife fight against a stronger person? For example, let us say we have two soldiers. One is a slightly shorter than average woman, while one is a guy of about average height. Both are trained infantry, and both have a fair amount of physical strength. However, the guy is bigger and stronger, while the girl is fairly good at Judo or something like it. Now let's say a CQB situation turned into a knife fight between them. Can the girl be expected to throw or trip the guy and then off him if she hits before he reacts?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Anyone know much about horses biting or kicking enemies during battles? War elephants apparently attack enemies a bit.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MacAilbert
How effective are martial arts styles like Judo that can unbalance an opponent during a knife fight against a stronger person? For example, let us say we have two soldiers. One is a slightly shorter than average woman, while one is a guy of about average height. Both are trained infantry, and both have a fair amount of physical strength. However, the guy is bigger and stronger, while the girl is fairly good at Judo or something like it. Now let's say a CQB situation turned into a knife fight between them. Can the girl be expected to throw or trip the guy and then off him if she hits before he reacts?
This depends entirely on how well the big guy can keep his balance, and if he knows how (or can adapt) to fight against an opponent with such a fighting style. In my experience, it depends entirely on how good the opponent is when it comes to judo and other such styles after a certain level; I (5ft 8, 150 lb soaking wet) have flipped, taken down and thrown 6ft 5, 250 lb people with some combat training, but no experience in judo, but could not do the same to some other, smaller person, who have better balance and/or are more adaptable in combat. However, in this situation, if the woman was smart, she would weaken the opposition (a couple of kicks to the knees/groin tend to work quite well, no matter who you are fighting) before going for a toss, unless he was a complete oaf.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MacAilbert
How effective are martial arts styles like Judo that can unbalance an opponent during a knife fight against a stronger person?
If you're fighting someone who actually knows how to use the knife you're going to get hurt. The only question is "how bad".
Quote:
Can the girl be expected to throw or trip the guy and then off him if she hits before he reacts?
Judo (along with aikido and similar arts) is largely reactive rather than proactive. In other words, you're taking advantage of your opponent's movement. Done correctly, the throws rely on leverage and on pulling/pushing your opponent off balance. If they're not moving or are always balanced that becomes difficult. Judo throws against an immobile target in a balanced stance typically only work if you can overpower them physically.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
A sword type question that I became curious about today while looking through a dungeons and dragons rulebook:
Were there any large curved blades like the falchion in 3E dungeons and dragons?, The closest I was able to find was the daodao, were there any other types of large curved sword?(flat, and wide blade ones, not the shamshir, or sabre style curve).
And also, though this is more of a question about games, is there any information regarding why the falchion is portrayed as a large weapon dungeons and dragons(and a few other rpgs or videos games as well)?
As far as I can tell(from some research i have done on them), historically they were small, and basically machetes.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Have you considered the grossmesser/kriegmesser type swords, or are they not curved enough?
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/...ht-mark-II.jpg
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togath
A sword type question that I became curious about today while looking through a dungeons and dragons rulebook:
Were there any large curved blades like the falchion in 3E dungeons and dragons?, The closest I was able to find was the daodao, were there any other types of large curved sword?(flat, and wide blade ones, not the shamshir, or sabre style curve).
And also, though this is more of a question about games, is there any information regarding why the falchion is portrayed as a large weapon dungeons and dragons(and a few other rpgs or videos games as well)?
As far as I can tell(from some research i have done on them), historically they were small, and basically machetes.
My falchion (a Windlass replica of a 16th century Italian falchion), is a bit bigger than a machete, but still not a big sword -- it's also practically a straight blade. However, two-handed falchions existed (I think), and a messer or grossemesser is basically a falchion. Curiously, GURPS treats "falchion" as an option that can be applied to an existing sword design: making it heavier, but more effective at cutting. They claim that the basic "falchion" is a short sword modified in this way -- but the fact that you can apply this to any sword may be a tacit acknowledgement that there were many different kinds of "cutting swords" that had broader, heavier, more curved blades?
Filippo Scolari is shown with a good sized curved sword in a painting from 1455:
http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/...elCastagno.htm
I don't know if that weapon would be classified as a falchion, or something else.
Also, modern fantasy art is sometimes prone to exaggerating blade sizes to cartoonishly hyperbolic proportions. So . . . beware :-)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=82524&stc=1
These are Große Messer. The name just means "big knives".
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raum
If you're fighting someone who actually knows how to use the knife you're going to get hurt. The only question is "how bad".
Agreed. Generally put, concentrating on trying to throw somebody with a knife usually ends up with the pair of you on the floor with his knife in one of your important organs.
Something like judo or aikido would focus on disarming or disabling the weapon before going for the takedown, but if the soldiers both have knives out, then they're trying to kill each other and non-lethal incapacitation should be a luxury rather than a goal.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Found an interesting thread of Viking horns. http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.p...,227726.0.html
Mostly, I'm talking about the pictures a few of the users are posting.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Well, armor development is an evolutionary process. Everything will be tried, but only those things that turned out to be helpful get to see widespread adaptation, while anything that is not helping will be discarded.
I'm sure someone taped a chainsaw to an assault riffle. That doesn't change the fact that it's stupid and causes much more problems than any benefit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Agreed. Generally put, concentrating on trying to throw somebody with a knife usually ends up with the pair of you on the floor with his knife in one of your important organs.
Something like judo or aikido would focus on disarming or disabling the weapon before going for the takedown, but if the soldiers both have knives out, then they're trying to kill each other and non-lethal incapacitation should be a luxury rather than a goal.
I'd say in the entire history of armed conflict, knives probably killed more people than all guns, swords, and spears combined. And not just because any stupid kid could have one, but because you can have them with you all the time. You don't get up in the middle of an argument to go home, done your armor, and get your sword and then come back to stab someone.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yora
I'd say in the entire history of armed conflict, knives probably killed more people than all guns, swords, and spears combined. And not just because any stupid kid could have one, but because you can have them with you all the time. You don't get up in the middle of an argument to go home, done your armor, and get your sword and then come back to stab someone.
I don't know about that, the spear has the edge when it comes to ancestry (by probably more than 200 000 years) and widespread use in all most armed conflicts until the advent of firearms; hell, even some kind of monkeys have been observed to make spears.
Even considering the kill count only from the advent of metalworking onwards, I think spears are still a worthy contender for the title. Which isn't to say that not a whole lot of people in history got killed by knives.
Also, on the question of chainsaw bayonets,
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dead_Jester
Also, on the question of chainsaw bayonets,
....
only in the Paras....
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yora
Well, armor development is an evolutionary process. Everything will be tried, but only those things that turned out to be helpful get to see widespread adaptation, while anything that is not helping will be discarded.
The thread changed my opinion on Viking helmets. I originally thought horns were too much of a problem to be plausibly added to helmets.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Conners
The thread changed my opinion on Viking helmets. I originally thought horns were too much of a problem to be plausibly added to helmets.
I can just picture it. "Dang Alf, I'm not sure how practical those are but they look awesome. You might just start a trend!"
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Conners
The thread changed my opinion on Viking helmets. I originally thought horns were too much of a problem to be plausibly added to helmets.
It is possible that some vikings had horns on their helmets, but the evidence is for the practice is almost non-existent. On the other hand, decorative helms are well attested throughout human history, whether for battle or display.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
My friend was wondering whether a specific weapon design would be efficient in battle.
Its what he calls a "hex-ax" and he got it from a game called "Dungeons of Dredmor" (it's the ax with the six blades coming out of it).
Here's a picture of the design.
Personally, I don't think that trying to use that sort of weapon would be a good idea, but he's positive that it would be an excellent weapon. He believes so because of the following reasons:
Spoiler
Show
- The hex-ax would be heavier than a normal ax, and so would be able to strike harder.
- The spaces between its multiple heads would be good for catching the opponents weapons.
- The multiple heads would allow the weapon to function as a rudimentary shield.
Note that I don't agree with those points, I'm just re-laying his ideas.
I'm fairly sure the hex-ax would make a bad weapon, but he wanted me to ask the Playground, so does anybody else have any opinions?
Thanks for the help. :smallsmile:
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
huttj509
I can just picture it. "Dang Alf, I'm not sure how practical those are but they look awesome. You might just start a trend!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matthew
It is possible that some vikings had horns on their helmets, but the evidence is for the practice is almost non-existent. On the other hand, decorative helms are well attested throughout human history, whether for battle or display.
Originally, I thought there was zero evidence--but then I found some in the thread. It seems that horned helms were only worn by important Vikings. People of importance don't normally fight in the thick of it, so the possibility of having them grabbed is diminished quite a bit. The other possibility is that they attached them like knight's crests, so that if they were hit or yanked they'd just pop off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
huttj509
I can just picture it. "Dang Alf, I'm not sure how practical those are but they look awesome. You might just start a trend!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blueiji
My friend was wondering whether a specific weapon design would be efficient in battle.
Its what he calls a "hex-ax" and he got it from a game called "Dungeons of Dredmor" (it's the ax with the six blades coming out of it).
Here's a picture of the design.
Personally, I don't think that trying to use that sort of weapon would be a good idea, but he's positive that it would be an excellent weapon. He believes so because of the following reasons:
Spoiler
Show
- The hex-ax would be heavier than a normal ax, and so would be able to strike harder.
- The spaces between its multiple heads would be good for catching the opponents weapons.
- The multiple heads would allow the weapon to function as a rudimentary shield.
Note that I don't agree with those points, I'm just re-laying his ideas.
I'm fairly sure the hex-ax would make a bad weapon, but he wanted me to ask the Playground, so does anybody else have any opinions?
Thanks for the help. :smallsmile:
I'm not as expert as these guys, but I think I can answer some of this.
Heavyness: Heavier weapons aren't better. Generally, smiths went to a lot of work to make sure weapons were a precise weight, and the weight balanced throughout the weapon.
A sledgehammer is heavy and can hit hard, but it's so slow that it was only used as a weapon in desperation. It is no good against faster weapons.
Spaces: They'd also make it difficult to wield, so you'll rarely get the chance for this "perk". Catching a weapon isn't necessarily a good thing, in this case. If you catch their sword, then they pull out a knife with their other hand and cut you, for example. You could try the same, but that thing looks so heavy, I think you'd need both hands to hold it with any strength... so you're pretty much done in.
Shield: Not really. It'd be so slow to move and have so much less coverage by comparison, using it like a shield would probably be a bad idea. Not sure what'd happen if you blocked an arrow with a sword/whichever--maybe you'd be fine, or maybe your weapon would smack you in the face?
Of course you'll probably want the opinions of the other guys, if you want to be sure, they'll know better than me.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
The hex-ax would be heavier than a normal ax, and so would be able to strike harder.
Yes, it would be much heavier than a normal ax. What this actually means is that it will be slow and unweildy, making it harder to parry, harder to strike, and harder to dodge given what it does to your balance. Even if it actually did strike harder, that isn't worth much when your opponent isn't sitting still waiting for you to hit.
The spaces between its multiple heads would be good for catching the opponents weapons.
So, you catch your opponents weapon at the end of your weapon, where your opponent has the best leverage available. At that point, your opponent can probably maneuver your weapon better than you can theirs. This doesn't work.
Incidentally, I would absolutely love to try and see someone try and use this against someone who outreached them. Having something too slow to parry with when your opponent is effectively guaranteed to get the first strike is a bad situation.
The multiple heads would allow the weapon to function as a rudimentary shield.
No. It would be held in the wrong place, be too slow to move, and barely protect anything. This weapon is a terrible idea in general, but trying to use it at a shield makes everything else seem reasonable.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Conners
Originally, I thought there was zero evidence--but then I found some in the thread. It seems that horned helms were only worn by important Vikings. People of importance don't normally fight in the thick of it, so the possibility of having them grabbed is diminished quite a bit. The other possibility is that they attached them like knight's crests, so that if they were hit or yanked they'd just pop off.
Well, I read that thread through, and it did not seem to convey any evidence for Viking Age helmets with horns. It took a bit of distilling, but basically it came down to three pieces of visual evidence that were, generously speaking, unclear in what they were depicting and one literary reference, which I could not find the source for.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
While the six bited axe is stuid times two times three, the chinese did use something based on a somewhat similar idea.
The ji is a kind of halberd that was really damn well effective and for a very long time was the standard weapon for basic infantry troops.
The trippel headed one might have been a 2000 year old weaponsmiths joke, but I remember having seen mentions of double headed ones at several times.