Originally Posted by
Kholai
If you do not accept other sources, then how do you handle the non-core spell lists and the non-core manoeuvres? It is impossible for anyone attempting to write comparatively about the various sources that anyone does or does not allow.
Considering I was demonstrating versatility, rather than power (I would consider an engineer currently capable of a lot better than throwing 1D6 damage flasks at people every round), and core-only restricts everyone's versatility more or less equally, I don't think it's an issue not to restrict versatility considerations to Core as an excuse to give the engineer powerful abilities it doesn't need.
As a side note, speaking Core only, what would you rule, as a DM, if a player had a thin cloth sack containing six flasks of Alchemist's Fire, which they then threw at someone to break all the flasks?
You know, I've never been able to find a ruling on this situation. Though part of me wants to reward clever play, being able to deal 6d6 fire damage for 120 gp is definitely over the top. Compare it to a scroll of Scorching Ray (a better comparison than Fireball, considering the reduced area and attack roll required), which costs 30gp more, does 2d6 less damage, and is restricted in use.
If you will, the Breathstealer again:
They're wearing Scorpion Claws for +4 to grapple checks. An exotic weapon - that they're proficient with. Not that it matters if they were.
Level 1: Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs) - +2 to Grapple Checks. Jotunbrud to count as Large for +4 to Grapple Checks.
Aberration Blood opens up: Inhuman Reach - Their soon-to-be-grapple attacks now have Reach.
Level 6 feat: Improved Grapple. If they're having trouble making friends with the full plate guy with a tower shield, then just let 'em make a touch attack to initiate it.
+18 grapple check before BAB and Strength modifiers.
Since you have Improved Grab, you may take a -20 penalty to act as though you are not grappled by just holding with the body part you made the grab with. Since you have +18, you can easily afford to get two grapples a round against two different opponents, or multiple grabs on the same target for multiple damage + constrict damage.
There's feats that can get you the "not grappled" benefit at a -10, then -0 penalty, just start with an 18 strength and bump it to 19 to qualify, but I'll skip Hentaizilla, the six tentacle rending constricter in order to protect 1D4 schoolgirls per round who would suffer his wrath.
Let us never speak of Hentaizilla again... *shudders*
Post level 6:
Inhuman Reach opens up: Deepspawn - You get two tentacles (by level 3) and another +2 to Grapple. Thanks to inhuman reach, they have reach too.
+26 total grapple check before Strength. An extra two attacks.
Battle Jump - They can now drop down onto enemies from a height of 5' in order to count as Gargantuan creatures. This can be readily enabled with skill tricks.
+30 total grapple check before Strength.
You can now grapple a Young Red Dragon with a good chance of making the pin, or grapple the first Breathstealer example I whipped up whilst taking a -20 penalty to not be grappled and still have a good chance of winning.
To extend in another direction - Power Attack > Cleave.
If you kill or disable a target with your constrict, your unarmed strike, or any other method, you get to make a free melee attack against any creature within your 10' reach.
15' when you pick up Extend Reach at the next 5,000 Exp feat.
And whilst you're at it, you may as well pick up Sneak Attack from Extra Manoeuvre/Stance for Assassin's Stance, because those helpless guys you pin may as well take Sneak Attack damage as well.
I'm pretty sure someone could probably optimise much better than I have, but this is what I would consider to be "extreme optimisation".
I do have to say that this mostly hits the mark I'm aiming for (perhaps taken to an extreme, yes) - the breathstealer is very, very good at his niche, but that's about it. If you invest every feat you have into making your grapple attacks legendary, I would fully expect this kind of monster. I generally play at higher end of the optimization scale. I would grant you that the brawler chassis is better than I envisioned it, and that perhaps reducing unarmed damage, the movement speed bonus, the armor class bonus, and even toning down or replacing Faster than the Naked Eye may be in order.
A tactical feat, its prerequisite +1 to hit and damage for splash weapons, and Skill Focus, dedicated around items the most damaging of which is "3D6 damage over time" is not what I would consider to be extreme optimisation. If I were going for a more moderate optimisation, I would most likely be talking about making poisons instead.
Oh, god, the poisons. The reason I got into shaper psions...
Core only?
Blue Whinnis. DC 14, deals 1 Con/Unconsciousness
Bloodroot. DC 12, nothing, followed by 1d4 Con +1d3 Wis as a secondary.
Drow Poison. DC 13, Fall Unconscious/ Fall Unconscious for 2D4 hours.
Sassone leaf residue: DC 16, deals 2d12 damage/1d6 Con.
All applied on Ranged Touch attacks. I've skipped the gas attacks (which the Engineer can easily be immune to). All of them can be crafted in a day by taking 10, and you can make one Drow Poison a day for 18.75 GP, less than 10 GP if you have access to the raw materials (a species of underdark fungi). At an average strong fort save of +7, that's a 25% chance per round that your target is out of commission, way better against those pesky mages.
I've changed the serum injector since you mentioned this last time, for exactly this reason. It no longer uses ranged touch attacks, but regular old ranged attacks (it makes sense - if your poison-filled syringe bounces off a guy's armor, it's not going to work very well).
And you can still battlefield control with oil, smokesticks, deafen people with Thunderstones, battlefield control with tanglefoot bags...
The Engineer in Core is pretty well on solid footing or better versus the Rogue in Core.
I appreciate the sentiment, but you must bear in mind - at suboptimal play, people will all be suboptimal. At Core only play - everyone has restricted tools and can still apply their limited resources to the limited situations they encounter.
Meanwhile, if you balance only for Core, you are not accounting for the interrelation between these things and non-Core. It's things not adequately accounting for non-core that makes up a lot of the theoretical optimisation interactions.