What about Scourge and Broodlord?
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What about Scourge and Broodlord?
Queen and Infestor would be interesting to see, too, though some of their functions are subsumed by the Swarm Lord.
Scourge would be a tiny flying critter with all of its points into AC, Self destruction and flying speed/ quality. :smalltongue: A one-shot wonder, but very powerful if it hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalisj
A broodlord would be a bit trickier. You would have to give it the ability to literally spawn some 1 HD monsters that are immune to falling damage, with a small duration (maybe 1 round/ 3 Swarmling HD) and a weak natural weapon. The ability to use these creatures as a ranged attack would probably count as its own natural weapon that would have to be evolved separately from its ability to create broodlings. In all of its other functions, though, the Brood Lord should be a simple creature to make, like the Guardian with a different attack mechanism.
A SC 1 queen would be Psionic, have an evolution that allows them to hit people with their entangling mucus... stuff and the ability to spawn two broodlings by killing an enemy with some kind of parasite that grows into them. Because this is D&D, enemies would be allowed a saving throw (most likely constitution) to survive. Finally, they might have the ability to create organic growth on buildings that allow you to spawn some 1-3 HD Kamikaze swarm monsters to emulate infecting a command center. This last ability would be the most expensive, by far, and might be used in a SC campaign if someone ever makes one. :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by C'nor
A SC 2 Queen would be like a larger, psionic Hydralisk. It would also have the ability to heal other members of the Swarm immediately, and might be able to make smaller swarmlings of its own. It would be able to make small growths that create creep for certain, and might be able to make mobile defensive structures (Creatures with a Hardness) just to go with it. Once again, this could be some kind of boss in a D&D setting.
Infestors would be a large or huge psionic swarmling, though more constitution based than either of the Queens or the Defiler. It would specialize in mind magics, most specifically stuns and domination abilities, and it would have the ability to burrow and move while burrowed. It would also require the Hive Mind ability. Finally, it would have an evolution that allows it to swallow smaller creatures and attempt to infest them. If it succeeds, it can store this creature in itself and attempt to swallow another creature. A large Infestor would be able to hold up to 2 small and 1 medium creature, while a huge infestor could hold 5 small or 3 medium. At any time the Infestor swarmling could spit these infected creatures out, up to 30" away from them, maximum. Once the infected and now mindless creatures are expelled, they would take a turn to recover and then attack creatures around them with 1-2 natural weapons.
For Lurker, it would be easier to use tremor sense [I think] to replicate seeing while underground. Also, I have trouble seeing the special burrow ability as anything other than a stronger burrow for not to much more cost. Do agree with the combat one though.
For mutalisk, Easiest would be to buy three natural attacks that are all ranged, or give it Spirit Force and Bonus Feat picking up Chain Power and Crystal Shard [Would actually be somewhat identicle. Except it runs out of charge. Another method would be buying 3 natural attacks and giving them range. Well, buying 1 attack as you start with 2].
For Broodlord/Scourge, that is simply Spirit Force and Astral Construct, or making it big enough to carry small infested with the detonation ability. In either of those cases it does run out though, but you can't have and eat your cake. [Hey, infested detonating mice. :smallsmile:]
However, on that note, I think you can't actually buy that to useless levels with weak infested, as they get rather few evolution points [1/2 Swarmlord, that gets 1/3 swarmling, so they get the evolution points of a swarmling 1/6th their level [approximately]].
Okay, here's a tough one.
Leviathan. :smallcool:
You need to be level 40. And then you evolve into it. :smallcool:
More seriously, you need a massive Charisma bonus to add all of the necessary Natural Weapons that you will need. You will be making a Colossal flying creature with ~12 natural ranged attacks that deal acid or elemental damage. You will also need to add a few other abilities that don't exist (I believe that the Leviathan has a yomato-cannon like attack, which you would have to create and would function like a Fireball but far more powerful). All of your points will be going into Constitution and Dexterity, and the second one should have far more added to it so that you can actually hit enemies with your acid lasers of death. Finally, you should add some kind of DR to this bad boy just to make it even more difficult to kill. :smalltongue:
At level 18, the evolution points column reads 76. I assume this should be 176.
EDIT: More confusion. So the way I'm reading this, there are 3 pools of evolution points:
- The pool in the class table that all swarmlings get. The swarmlord does not augment herself with these.
- The pool each individual swarmling gets, equal to any bonus PP the swarmlord gets. The swarmlord does not augment herself with these.
- The pool the swarmlord gets to specifically use on herself, equal to 1/3 of the value in the table.
If this is indeed how it works, I recommend adding another section of table for [3] and repeating the bonus evolution points clause from [2] in Seeds of the Swarm. If this is not how it works, then blarga.
I would specify where Force of Personality comes from.
I recommend specifying whether or not she gains bonus PP.
You should describe Hive Mind in the infested template, or at least reference the Swarmling template, because this could be the MM3 Shimmerling Swarm's Hive Mind ability or the MM2 Abeil's Hive Mind ability and there's no true distinction.In addition, how does the swarmlord command their minions to act, and what is the cap for controlled creatures?(I found the answer to this. I recommend putting the HD cap before the template instead of after, and getting rid of any discussion of ECL because WotC's terrible LA makes cool PC-esque monsters unavailable).
By RAW, the Infested all gain the bonus evolution points and natural armor etc. because those are written under the Hive Mind ability. I recommend creating a second ability for that so that the Infested aren't gaining evolution points twice. Finally, there doesn't appear to a maximum for controlled creatures, which immediately sets of alarm bells for me. I don't want a swarmlord pumping the BBEG full of debuffs, then swarm-ifying it and having a OHK minion following her around forever.
The Subtlety adaptation allows you to hide swarmlord abilities "from sight", but not from function. By RAW you could hide your wings and then use them to fly. I think this is pretty awesome, but I doubt it's what you intended, so I recommend specifying that hidden abilities become non-functional.
Hmmm... it appears that a two-level dip in swarmlord can grant +1 size category among other things. At level 5, a base medium creature can be gargantuan with Adaptation (Lord Above) and 5 points in Size Change (+2 Size). That seems abusable, but I don't know how.
Lastly, I recommend an ACF for pure swarmling use (no Infestation or Assimilation) in order to make NPCs easy to generate.
Finally, swarmlords don't seem very... swarmy. The character is going to want big helpers because little things tend to be weak and useless, so the optimum playstyle for a swarmlord is having 1 swarmling, 1 or 2 Infested/Assimilated, and then spread buffs around and play 4 characters. That doesn't seem like what you're going for, but I don't know how to fix it.
Oh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Just to Browse
Thanks.
You're correct on the evo points. Makes sense, I'll add it.
I'll write it up, since the version I have in my head is IIRC not the canon one, because Wizards hate cha.
Whoops. Will do.
Also will do.
Haha. While funny, not intentional, will clarify.
It'd make a pretty scary melee character...
These last two are valid points, but I'm honestly not sure how to even start balancing them. The Infestation ability is meant to deal with swarms, if your DM lets you. Really, a proper swarm requires a solo game.
No, a scary melle character is a Mind Flayer [Giantitp Improved Monsterclass] Swarmlord with Weapons of the queen always selecting tentacles. Instant kills for the swarm! [However, there is a lack of swarmlings, but hey, you cant have your cake and eat it].
Yes, Infested suffer the same problems as Animated dead for numbers [Except, you cant have a infested with 4* your hd...]. Lowering the cap would help [say max HD 1/2 your HD for infested or some such [gaining infestation at level 2 prevents problems.], with up to 4*HD [Or more given reduction.] controlled, with higher maximum hd % of yours for embraced and assimilated to allow them to be of use against high level opponents.]. Swarmlings are supposed to be the elite bodyguards/liutenants so their is no problem with them not being swarmy, and given you have a maximum of 5 pre epic [Pinnacle swarm], they cant be anything but lieutenants.
If you truely want a swarm, you need Abduction and Abdictation. 3HD creatures can have hive mind up to 3 [you need 5 to go above this] allowing them to go off anywhere and controll 12HD of others as if you were.
I would honestly just cherry pick the best Outsiders I can find (Assimilate a Wizard to get Gate or something) and fill my swarm cap with a few very powerful creatures that run with Hive Node. Another way to get around this would be to get 8 levels in Dread Necromancer and use your outrageous HD cap to drag around swarmed zombies that you don't want clogging your hive mind control limit, having them voluntarily connect to the hive mind so that they can receive orders. This also gets around the issue of "crap, I accidentally killed the tarrasque and now I can't infest it".Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Vale
Death Master would probably work better. You'd only need to be level 3, plus you could apply templates to your undead minion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldurin
Anyways, this really is the source of ultimate power for the swarmlord, which is sad. Of course, the biggest problem is that no one has hard-coded group combat rules, which makes swarming hard.
The Leviathan would definitely need swarmlord levels itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnomes2169
as far as abilities:
It has 4 Melee tentacles, although that would need to be adjusted to have Whip-Reach instead of half reach, with a range increment of like 5 miles (allowing it to attack anything within 15 miles of it).
it can spawn any swarmling creature, although it primarily specializeses in spawning 14 10Hd fliers per round.
it has 0AC (its a ****ing moon), but has special DR to reduce all damage it takes to 1/25th normal if it is non-balistic/Non-nuclear
It has a 10d20 Ranged spit attack and a (3d6 x2)x15 swarmling ranged attack.
oh, and it can only be controlled by a character with 20 Psion, 20 Swarmlord, and 10 Empress levels (Kerrigan is already an epic level psionic before infestation)
This class needs a ability that spawns creatures...from either Swarmlings or other, Assimlated or better.
So, if i got's this right:
My Swarmlord cannot use her impressive amount of Evolution points to augument Her army of Infested?
And also, it seems biased to Large, singular amounts of HD, instead of many, tiny hordes.
It's called not making the DM want to choke you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFireLance
Fixed that for you. :smalltongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalisj
Recursive creaturing is probably something that should be avoided, and if you don't want to avoid it then you should just Embrace an Undead under your Undead control and have it burn it's main pool on more swarmlings. Though such a tactic may get shot down from any sane DM (see previous posts regarding your last bit).Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFireLance
Infested get their own pool that's rather small to represent the crap-tier influence that the swarm stuff has on them, gaining a pool equivalent to a quarter of what a swarmlord of their level would have. Assimilated increase that pool to half to scale that power and help make the weeklong wait worthwhile, and Embrace gives them full capacity. There are options if a mook isn't as boosted as you want.
If you want a large horde, get the Adaptation Abdication and Adduction, then use 3+ HD creatures with 3 ranks in hive node as commanders, who comman commanders. Each one can have HD*2 so the motto for hordes through swarmlord is 'Delegate, Delegate, Delegate."
And with hive node, they can be as far away as you want, the problem is when people break the middle of the chain granting your infested free will, meaning you need to go on a Kerrigan style side quest to round them all up again...
Or have them put a/multiple point/s in Int, and make sure they all want to regroup with you should the connection be severed.
My Dm already wan'ts my heart on a silver platter, so...:smallwink:Quote:
Originally Posted by C'nor
Though, I'm making a 20th level one for a nations game, and it gets quite, quite annoying to spend dem Points....:smallsigh:
forgive me for sounding stupid :smallfrown: but do bonus points at cha 18 apply to each individual swarmling or are these added to the big pool?
also, non stupid :smallbiggrin: can rapid evolution be taken twice?
P.S. if i make cool swarmlings could i post em here?
Charisma bonus applies to the big pool, Rapid Evolution... Should probably be takeable multiple times but it doesn't specify so no, so ask your DM.Quote:
Originally Posted by inuyasha
OH i thought each swarmling got an itty bitty bonus pool :p man that woulda been cool.
oh wait...infested get a small bonus pool=to half the swarmlords pool at half her level :smallbiggrin:
Swarmlings each get their own bonus pool based on your charisma, it doesn't actually add to your main pool and thus can't be spent on The Swarm Grows (which is good). Charisma bonus also grants a bonus pool to Embraced creatures, but that's the only other case outside of swarmlings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFireLance
Yeah, this. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Turalisj
Correct, but you'll note in the Infested template that they get their own small pool.Quote:
So, if i got's this right:
My Swarmlord cannot use her impressive amount of Evolution points to augument Her army of Infested?
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldurin
I could write rules for recursive swarm-generating, but they would need to have one of the following factors:
Be temporary (lose HP/round or something)
Be banned unless you were in a solo game.
Just bringing this up in case you missed this, so you can clarify for us and decide whether or not to edit the feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Vale
Or a multiperson PVP game. Could be kind of interesting to do that sort of thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lix Lorn
Alternatively, you could write better rules for mobs and toss those in.
Legend has the Myriad template which works pretty well.
That's actually what I'm using it for. :smallcool:Quote:
Originally Posted by C'nor
I vote you go ahead with that Lix.
True, or that.Quote:
Originally Posted by C'nor
Ha. Okay, I'll put it on my list of things to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFireLance
I could, but that's a big project to take on when it's only vaguely connected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just to Browse
Oh hey. Yeah, it should be, but not to just stack the same adaption. Edit incoming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Vale
So...sorry....:smallcool:
I had to post this here, cause I got bored.
The Hive lord
Epic Requirements:
20th level, 215 Evolution points.
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Evolution points
1st|+0|+2|+2|+2|Adaption | 230
2nd|+1|+3|+3|+3|Hives Might III|243
3rd|+2|+3|+3|+3| Adaption| 269
4th|+3|+4|+4|+4| Enhanced Swarm|280+Cha
5th|+3|+4|+4|+4| Ultimate Adaption| 301
6th|+4|+5|+5|+5| Enhanced Swarm| 323+Cha
7th|+5|+5|+5|+5| Adaption| 346
8th|+6|+6|+6|+6| Enhanced Swarm | 369+Cha
9th|+6|+6|+6|+6| Hives Might IV| 381
10th|+7|+7|+7|+7|Ultimate Adaption | 400
[/table]
Adaption
This functions exactly like the ability of the same name from the Swarmlord base class.
Hives Might
Each instance adds the indicated amount to the save Dc of any power you manifest, the highest only counts, You do not add other levels.
Enhanced Swarm
At Each indicated level you add your current CHA Score to your Evolution points.
(Example: Bob has a Cha score of 20 (18+2 Enhancement) And adds 20 to his swarm points, But anything other then Permenet and 24 or longer enhancements do not count.)
Ultimate Adaptions
These represent a much more powerful enhancement then adaptions, and as such, are only accsessable by extremely powerful Swarmlords, known as Hivelords.
Spoiler
Forceful Evolution
By taking 6d10 Reduction of max HP (Unbuffed) You give any assimilated or Embraced you control that many Evolution points.
This Fortress is Mine
This Ultimate Adaption Requires This land is mine adaption.
This allows your creep to Climb any wall, at the normal rate of growth, (Even walls of force, but not walls of fire and other damaging walls) and eat at it, reducing it by 5x5 Foot each hour, if you choose to do that. This 'Super' Creep enhances all fast healing by 2, and for swarmlings, and any other Infested, Assimilated or Embraced you control.
Bio-Titans
This Ultimate Adaption requires at least 6 natural attacks that the Swarmlord can make.
Every member of your swarm with 8+HD and the Assimilated or Embraced template gains 6 points in the enhanced/additional natural weapon, and +2 Str or Con, Your choice.
Swarm of Terror
Your Swarm leaves no witnesses and no trace, Except nothingness :smalltongue:
Knowledge Checks, and any spell that would give any info fails, even gods forget the horror of the swarm.
Knowledge must be passed by word or witnessing it, which is hard, seeming as scouts never make it back, Any Creature that has knowledge of you or your swarm has it's location given to you as though a Greater Scrying effect, that cannot be found or blocked.
Hmm. Well, as an Epic PrC, it doesn't need BAB or saves. :smalltongue:
Enhanced Swarm seems like an odd way to do it. They already gain points from each level...
The problem with giving more Adaptions is that there may or may not be enough adaptions to support epic play.
'This Fortress is Mine' and 'Swarm of Terror' are badass epic adaptions!
The problem with the other two is, adaptions are meant to improve the Swarmlord herself, or the swarm as a whole, rather than granting power to specific members of the swarm.