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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
The fact that it falls apart on just the slightest amount of further inspection beyond passively glossing through it makes it flat out bad.
Also count me in on the crowd that couldn't even make it through an archival reading. I stopped finding it "passable" at Jazzhands.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
"fact that it falls apart on just the slightest amount of further inspection beyond passively glossing"
I know what you mean. Lord of the Rings is one of the worst books ever written. Good Wizard wishes to take staff of bad wizard as part of offer of parole. Good Wizard breaks staff of bad wizard to take away his power. Therefore staff holds wizards power and is not easily replaced.
Meanwhile earlier in book why didn't bad wizard take away staff from good wizard when he captured and imprisoned him?
Also see on youtube, how LOTR should have ended...
(You can snark most fiction if your mind is set that way, the power of the lynch mob with their bias)
...
I see a lot of posts saying same thing over and over in vague terms such as "it is always worse and worse". Take such a post, paste it in years later or years earlier on a completely different episode of the webcomic, and if no one would notice difference is it really worth much?
if something is so obvious then you don't have to say it over and over again in vague terms literally 1000. People would be able to see for selves. (Same sort of criticism that the critics have for the work can also be leveled at the critics own writings)
...
The idea of gathering up everyone to fight the big bad has been done many times, eg Babylon 5 to end the shadow war. For a daily rather than weekly serial I don't think the treatment here is worse than the average of others. (You expect in a daily soap opera or daily serial done by only one person to be at not as high of standard compared to a weekly, less time for author to polish his work)
I see 10x more action in DD than for example in requiem.spiderforest.com, another "daily" webcomic.
...
[I personally found the idea of DD giving himself up silly, but at same time see similar silly in fiction, and even in real life, eg what experts suggested in appeasing pirates, not putting lives at risk which ended up making the problem 10x as big. Lots of stories have scenes where the hero lets himself be captured so that the victim isn't killed right away, with result that more would probably be victims if not saved by plotarmour]
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Oh god are you seriously trying to compare DD to LotR? I didn't even like LotR, but that is a ridiculous comparison.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobikus
Oh god are you seriously trying to compare DD to LotR? I didn't even like LotR, but that is a ridiculous comparison.
The point was that much of the most popular stories and movies can have similar criticisms. Does not by self mean horrible story.
At times the supposedly flaws aren't really flaws, are explainable.
Comparing apples to apples, DD is closest to a daily soap opera, or other form of fiction that is published/shown every day, and have less polish. To be fair "number of flaws" should be compared to its closest fiction peers.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Daily soap operas have to make their schedule while doing all the production work needed for an actual show. Also for all their flaws they typically manage to at least exhibit actual story structure. Mookie is technically a 10 year veteran as an artist and writer and still horribly fails at fundamental basics.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
Comments like this just make me eyeroll. It honestly works a lot better when a new guy starts reading it from the start and just plows through it.
Okay, fair enough. And I'll hold back on the hyperbole to say that the first few years up until about the end of storm of souls are okay reading. Not very memorable, not particularly amazing storytelling, but completely readable to pass some time.
But then it just keeps going, and just keeps degenerating.
Mookie really should have stopped early and moved on.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
multilis
"fact that it falls apart on just the slightest amount of further inspection beyond passively glossing"
I know what you mean. Lord of the Rings is one of the worst books ever written. Good Wizard wishes to take staff of bad wizard as part of offer of parole. Good Wizard breaks staff of bad wizard to take away his power. Therefore staff holds wizards power and is not easily replaced.
Meanwhile earlier in book why didn't bad wizard take away staff from good wizard when he captured and imprisoned him?
Also see on youtube, how LOTR should have ended...
(You can snark most fiction if your mind is set that way, the power of the lynch mob with their bias)
...
I studied Lord of the Rings in university. Its depth is sufficient that everything in it, as it happens, has significant meaning and the plot holes that you are seeing are, in fact, merely not noticing other details that Tolkien felt explained it. (For example, Gandalf only has authority to break Saruman's staff because he is returned as the White Wizard. He could not have done it before. As for the freaking eagles, they couldn't get into Mordor while Sauron was alive. They would have been torn apart by angry flying dragons. That was why they didn't start flying until after the ring fell into the fire.)
Lord of the Rings is the opposite of Dominic Deegan. The farther you examine it, the more it makes sense and holds together. Every element has, in fact, been carefully considered, and barring one or two minor elements that are a result of one person not being able to hold an entire universe in their head, as happens in all fiction, it is staggeringly well put-together.
Any well-designed work of fiction must be able to withstand slight scrutiny, because if not it means that the author simply doesn't give a crap.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
multilis
The point was that much of the most popular stories and movies can have similar criticisms. Does not by self mean horrible story.
At times the supposedly flaws aren't really flaws, are explainable.
Comparing apples to apples, DD is closest to a daily soap opera, or other form of fiction that is published/shown every day, and have less polish. To be fair "number of flaws" should be compared to its closest fiction peers.
I won't focus specifically on LotR, it's obvious that in almost every story, especially sci-fi/fantasy, you'll find plot holes.
I sometimes like finding these plot holes or mistakes, but it doesn't necessarily turn a story into a bad one.
I usually manage to just ignore the mistakes since the good stories have enough redeeming qualities.
I found several problems in the Dresden Files series, but I still think it's a great one.
Harry Potter had many issues, but it was still enjoyable.
So are hundreds of other books I read and rated over 3.5/5
DD on the other hand, it a train wreck of problems: Character development, world building, plot, art, literature, morals.
DD is a rare piece of work, where there is not a single good thing I can say about it.
Soap operas BTW, are indeed daily shows, but even in weak episodes the quantity of events in a 30-60 minute show is usually A LOT more than what any comic can and should do in one short strip.
Also, the pacing is not forced on the writer by some other people, HE decides to do it as a daily script.
I don't think anyone would hold it against him if several years ago he'd say that he is slowing the pace to improve the quality.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
This is similar to what happens in King Lear. King Lear and Cordelia are captured by Edmund's army, similar to how Dominic is now in the king's (see that word again) clutches. Yet King Lear is considered one of the greatest dramatic works in the English language? Clearly it is a travesty.
Dominic Deegan is drawn by a man called Michael. Yet the Statue of David by Mich(a)elangelo is considered a great and influential work of art? It is naked like Dominic "don't be close minded."
Both Dominic Deegan and the annoying orange were made to be put up on the internet but the annoying orange is a masterpiece and Deegan is bad?
Dominic Deegan is kind of flawed but it is far more intellectual than [url=seriouslythoughittstinksreallybad.com/view.php?date=2012-11-17-part1]the thing I left in the toilet this morning./url]
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
I really hate those complaint in LotR because, as has been said, the more you learn about both the story and the universe, the more sense they make.
As well as the eagles not being able to fly into Mordor for fear of being eaten by evil dragonish things, there is also the fact that the ring takes control of people by their pride, as one of it's main methods of 'attack'. The Eagles are famously proud - the ring would have had them fighting over it before they even got close to the black land.
Also I binged out on DD, and indeed, up until the Storm of Souls it was mostly fine (the dolls thing was my biggest complaint and honestly remains one of my biggest ones). But man did it get old faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast, especially Maltak. The only other mostly passable element was Court of Karnak, but that was ruined by Siggy.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
So, as has been noted a few times, Mookie comes up with plot points on the basis of "This thing is in a work people like, so of course it's going to be great if I throw it in!".
Meanwhile, multilis' usual defense of the comic is "Dominic Deegan shouldn't be criticized for this thing because it's (sort of) in a work people like."
I wonder...:smalltongue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
T-O-E
Make an image search for hospital emergency equipment, take one of the top results that doesn't look too complex, and imagine it drawn by Mookie, and possibly with a small but crucial part missing.
Quote:
I give it pretty good odds that Szark or Bronto will die, possibly sacrificing themselves. Homophobia is insidious.
I've been waiting for Szark to sacrifice himself pretty much ever since I started reading the comic a few years ago. I think it would be Bronto, though, simply because I can't see Mookie kill of another member of the extended main cast before the final battle.
EDIT: Would be interesting if the two dead Team Deegan members (apart from some guys that got like 10 lines before this arc) ended up being the black one and the gay one, though.
Also, since it came up, I always thought Dominic Deegan was a horrible webcomic.
I mean, a lot of the plot holes will pretty much fly by you when you click yourself through the archives, yeah. But still, you've got your nerd wish fulfillment fantasy with the obvious author self-insert living in a town full of horrible and stupid jocks that shun him because he reads and is smart and amazing while they are horrible, stupid, and also jocks.
Then he gets his love interest (who makes his bed smell like girl), which he saves from herself because that way he can live out the good old white knight fantasy while still showing what a smart and sensitive man he is. Awesome! Also not at all sexist, especially because his girlfriend is a brilliant wizard herself, although of course maybe not quite as brilliant as he is.
And it goes without saying that the protagonist has some super special abilities and it just so happens that he is the only one who can save the world from burning to the ground and of course does so even though it does not deserve one such as him, to the point of being promoted to official Chosen One status within a few years of the comic's run.
Now, obviously, most of the above has gotten a lot less prominent over time, as Mookie got older, wiser, into a healthy relationship, over high school, etc., but it's still there and what makes me despise early Dominic Deegan - this whole self-absorbed escapist fantasy of the heroic nerd doing hero things the nerd way in a world he is constantly busy saving (so the readers can feel good) even though it is populated largely by undeserving imbeciles (so the readers can feel better).
It's Twilight for people that cosplay as anime characters.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Blade
It's Twilight for people that cosplay as anime characters.
This is the next thread title.
I so decree it :smallcool:
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Blade
Stuff.
Yes. Though that nerd revenge/wish fulfilment aspect is kind of why I liked it initially and why I still cringe a little with every comic driving home just how poorly executed it is. To each their own, and in the snark we stand united. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Blade
It's Twilight for people that cosplay as anime characters.
Aaaand now I feel even worse about having unironically loved DD back in high school.
In my defense, I've never cosplayed as an anime character.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Blade
Meanwhile, multilis' usual defense of the comic is "Dominic Deegan shouldn't be criticized for this thing because it's (sort of) in a work people like."
Yeah this is generally one of the motives for sticking with cargo cult writing. It's a shield from criticism because if you're criticizing this then you must be trying to criticize this other thing I got the idea from, but we all know that other thing's good!
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
I used to enjoy Dominic Deegan, to a point. It was when I first started reading it - back when the Snowsong arc was ending. I went on an archive binge and I didn't find it too bad at first. Of course, it was years ago, and my perspective was different. When I got to Snowsong though, I was fully on the snark side.
It's hard for me to tell when exactly I decided that the comic was terrible, however. Like I said, it's been years.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Am I the only one who's getting that weird mind-reading cosplay cat ears ad when I come to this page? Is that because we were just talking about cosplay?
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. McGician
Am I the only one who's getting that weird mind-reading cosplay cat ears ad when I come to this page? Is that because we were just talking about cosplay?
Everyone in the US should be seeing those ads everywhere in the forums.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
SNEAKY GATE
Future link
Man remember when we thought that Friday's comic portended a more extensive confrontation? The whole "I'm not really human anymore" foreshadowed some second transformation?
Remember that?
To be fair, they've addressed to some extent my complaint about where the ceiling went - there's a door in the house that leads to a void for wizardly doings, I guess.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rocketpony
SNEAKY GATE
Future link
Man remember when we thought that Friday's comic portended a more extensive confrontation? The whole "I'm not really human anymore" foreshadowed some second transformation?
Remember that?
To be fair, they've addressed to some extent my complaint about where the ceiling went - there's a door in the house that leads to a void for wizardly doings, I guess.
God dammit mookie, cant you do anything right? Anything at all? Ok, here is whats happening mookie. You have just reminded us that despite his assumption that everything has worked out great, in fact everything has failed. This hints at disaster when nimmel tries to contact the eld. Every step of the way, they have struck failure. Dont bork this part up too like you did the CLEAR FREAKING FORESHADOWING OF THE SWORD NOT KILLING MAESTRO!
Seriously mook, it couldnt have been more obvious that he wasnt human and a sword shouldnt have worked than if he had actually SAID, "Mwahaha miranda! You might as well be stabbing me with swords for all the good it will do! (Im immune to stab wounds btw) After all, I am most definitely NOT human anymore, and so can ignore such paltry wounds."
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
It's like there is a new rule in this arc: confrontations will not take more than one full strip.
Also, from Nimmel's speech it seems like they all waited for the Maestro and the dragon before contacting the Eld. Any reason for this?
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
random11
It's like there is a new rule in this arc: confrontations will not take more than one full strip.
That's an old rule. Remember Maltak? :smalltongue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
random11
Also, from Nimmel's speech it seems like they all waited for the Maestro and the dragon before contacting the Eld. Any reason for this?
This is part of an actual new rule: Mookie uses dialogue to remind himself of story points.
As was mentioned earlier, a lot of dialogue seems to exist just to recount things that have just happened or to tell us what is about to happen. IMHO, this is more Cargo Cult Writing, this time cribbed from comic books: there it helps to remind readers of what happened months or even years ago (as comic books published on a weekly or monthly basis). Here, it is clearly unnecessary since Mookie is writing a daily (ish) webcomic but that's what makes it Cargo Cult style :smallsigh:
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
:smallsigh:... Mookie, them being on a genericwhitebackgroundplane is something you should establish at the beginning of a scene, not the end of it. I was assuming this whole time they were still at her house, and I had to go back through at least a week's worth of strips before I saw even the possibility that she might have changed locations.
And the Maestro suddenly loses the mind control before he dies? Whatever, it's a common cliche, just throw it in!
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oracle_Hunter
This is part of an actual new rule: Mookie uses dialogue to remind himself of story points.
As was mentioned earlier, a lot of dialogue seems to exist just to recount things that have just happened or to tell us what is about to happen. IMHO, this is more Cargo Cult Writing, this time cribbed from comic books: there it helps to remind readers of what happened months or even years ago (as comic books published on a weekly or monthly basis). Here, it is clearly unnecessary since Mookie is writing a daily (ish) webcomic but that's what makes it Cargo Cult style :smallsigh:
I think it was supposed to be dramatic.
Like in war movies when the soldiers need to hold the fort until reinforcement arrives, only to discover a few days later that they are alone.
We'll probably learn what it was supposed to be in the news post.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. McGician
And the Maestro suddenly loses the mind control before he dies? Whatever, it's a common cliche, just throw it in!
I think this is excusable. Maestro didn't seriously attack Miranda when he nose zapped her cause he like all DD characters have a flair for drama and (bad) comedy. Similarly, it's possible the Maestro is still under mind control but figured instead of firing off one last spell that wouldn't do anything, he'd tell the famous bard to write something bad-ass about him. Cause law of drama.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
Every step of the way, they have struck failure
Look I don't know where you were last week, but I'm pretty sure that Luna received a powerup because she proved herself through her trials before Maltak Maltak that stuff after Maltak various actions look he's a dragon okay he doesn't have to explain himself to you.
Bonus: it's probably for the best (for the protagonists) that the Maestro died, because man, he died by somebody throwing a sword into him. From right in front of him. This speaks of a distressing sort of tunnel vision, that might not be an asset when they're fighting an army of cattleblasters.
Maybe it's something to do with the enchantment, like malicious compliance on part of the Maestro, or just that enchantment inherently limits how good a wizard can be because you're taking away their mind and that's the sum of their assets, but man, enchanting a wizard just seems to ruin their tactical value.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Yeah yeah, I forgot luna is a dragon princess now. What I meant by failure is, the dragon is dead, the masetro is dead, they have found no new allies yet, and now we get to meet the eld. Not sure what everyone else is in the room for, but im sure we will find out. Probably its happening so mookie can show his student characters just how far nimmel has come or some such thing. Because its important to prove to fake people that your favorite fake person isnt a nerd, he is a hard rocking hero.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Do you think Mookie brought Tara back so he could tubdead her before the comic ends? It's his last chance and he could get some METAL drama out of it.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. McGician
:smallsigh:... Mookie, them being on a genericwhitebackgroundplane is something you should establish at the beginning of a scene, not the end of it. I was assuming this whole time they were still at her house, and I had to go back through at least a week's worth of strips before I saw even the possibility that she might have changed locations.
And the Maestro suddenly loses the mind control before he dies? Whatever, it's a common cliche, just throw it in!
I agree, before we got a "Miranda's Secret Backup Demiplane", but this time nothing. Plus, I guess that portal just leads straight into their house, and Miranda just keeps it open when she's using it?
I don't suppose anyone is going to call Dadagen out on murdering the Maestro without even trying to see if he could be saved. Manta mage at least got an attempt to save him before Miranda "put him out of his misery." But the Maestro got nothing. Hell, Donovan didn't even say anything to the guy, just instantly murdered him by throwing a sword through a portal.
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Re: Dominic Deegan, Mk. XLVII: A Flat World From Recycled Scrap
Mookie thinks the Carmina Burana would make a good requiem? Really?
All twenty-five movements of it?