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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
One level in life cleric gets you weapon and armour proficiency - great for a strength based Valor bard. Life domain also gives you a solid boost to healing. As it is a full caster you still get all the same slots.
The benefits you get from this are weighed out by the fact that the Cure Wounds you get uses your WIS (dump stat), as do any other spells you use from the Cleric list. At best, you get a little bit of a healing boost and heavy armor proficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
Nature cleric does similar but lets you take shillelagh as a cantrip - you can be a valor bard with wisdom as your attack stat if you want (and heavy armour still).
Being able to attack with a dump stat isn't a selling point. Even if you're suggesting dumping Strength instead, you're not decreasing the MAD at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
A level of knowledge cleric is superb for RP reasons.
An optimization guide doesn't cover RP, even if it's a Bard guide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
Getting guidance as a cantrip is a nice touch if you are playing bard as a skill focussed character.
Bards are skill-focused no matter what. Guidance isn't much help when you have a +14 to your skill already. Besides, you can get that with Magical Secrets.
Every class offers something, but Cleric doesn't offer nearly enough. I don't like the idea of giving up a single ASI for heavy armor, let alone a whole level.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
The benefits you get from this are weighed out by the fact that the Cure Wounds you get uses your WIS (dump stat), as do any other spells you use from the Cleric list. At best, you get a little bit of a healing boost and heavy armor proficiency.
Being able to attack with a dump stat isn't a selling point. Even if you're suggesting dumping Strength instead, you're not decreasing the MAD at all.
An optimization guide doesn't cover RP, even if it's a Bard guide.
Bards are skill-focused no matter what. Guidance isn't much help when you have a +14 to your skill already. Besides, you can get that with Magical Secrets.
Every class offers something, but Cleric doesn't offer nearly enough. I don't like the idea of giving up a single ASI for heavy armour, let alone a whole level.
Re life:You wouldn't use cure wounds if you were a life cleric. Stick with healing words as a bonus action to get people back into the fight, but with more hitpoints. Cleric spells like bless are solid and don't need wisdom. You can also use magical secrets to get the paladin healing aura spell for good sustained healing.
RE Nature: Yes, I was suggesting dumping strength rather than wisdom. I admit the advantages to this are small - wisdom saves, perception are the main ones. The aim isn't to become less MAD but to provide a viable alternative.
RE Roleplay: Point taken, although possibly a comment is due at the top that the purpose is to make the bard more efficient not to help people have more fun. This is reasonable, there are other guides for that.
RE Skills/Guidance: Guidance isn't a huge thing for the class but it is a nice thing to have on top of all the other abilities. Just another spell that you don't need wisdom for and enhances your strengths. If people don't want to just be good at skills but the best possible at things, then this may be attractive to them. You are right you could get this with magical secrets - but you could also save those for something else with this dip.
My view is that none of the things here alone are worth a dip for. It is the cumulation of:
more spells known / available
Armour proficiency (weapon as well but less of an attractive thing for a lore bard)
A couple of really strong spells
A level 1 ability - life domain fits in well
The costs are also manageable - 13 Wisdom is all you need and so many good level 1 cleric spells don't need high wisdom. Yes, some of these are also on the bard list but it lets you take more bard spells. Don't forget you will learn the domain spells as well.
I am not trying to say I think it is great as a choice - just that it is solid enough to consider and that it does bring some enhancements if that is what you want. I was of the view that red was a bit harsh (but I will say red seems about right for the druid).
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
Re life:You wouldn't use cure wounds if you were a life cleric. Stick with healing words as a bonus action to get people back into the fight, but with more hitpoints.
The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
Cleric spells like bless are solid and don't need wisdom. You can also use magical secrets to get the paladin healing aura spell for good sustained healing.
True.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
RE Roleplay: Point taken, although possibly a comment is due at the top that the purpose is to make the bard more efficient not to help people have more fun. This is reasonable, there are other guides for that.
I like to think that there is room for both fun and efficiency, but that's a reasonable suggestion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
The rest
You make a convincing enough argument to bump it up to purple. I'll use some of what you've suggested.
Still, with most characters, the 13 Wis will be a bit difficult. Most solid Bard races don't have Wis as a stat boost, and so you have to give one of your highest stats to a dump stat.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels.
True.
RE Nature: Yes, I was suggesting dumping strength rather than wisdom. I admit the advantages to this are small - wisdom saves, perception are the main ones. The aim isn't to become less MAD but to provide a viable alternative.
I like to think that there is room for both fun and efficiency, but that's a reasonable suggestion.
You make a convincing enough argument to bump it up to purple. I'll use some of what you've suggested.
Still, with most characters, the 13 Wis will be a bit difficult. Most solid Bard races don't have Wis as a stat boost, and so you have to give one of your highest stats to a dump stat.
Purple sounds within the range of what I would consider (I would say black but perhaps not as i would never say take more than 1 level of cleric if you plan to main class bard).
My OCD nature still requires me to address one last thing though... Disciple of life boosts ANY healing spell, not just cleric spells. You still use healing word as a bard spell (or mass healing word or whatever) but you restore extra hitpoints from the disciple of life.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrStabby
Purple sounds within the range of what I would consider (I would say black but perhaps not as i would never say take more than 1 level of cleric if you plan to main class bard).
My OCD nature still requires me to address one last thing though... Disciple of life boosts ANY healing spell, not just cleric spells. You still use healing word as a bard spell (or mass healing word or whatever) but you restore extra hitpoints from the disciple of life.
But you're learning all of those spells a level later, and you still have cleric healing spells prepared that are useless to you. The drawbacks keep this combination from being terribly powerful.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
The benefits you get from this are weighed out by the fact that the Cure Wounds you get uses your WIS (dump stat), as do any other spells you use from the Cleric list. At best, you get a little bit of a healing boost and heavy armor proficiency.
Being able to attack with a dump stat isn't a selling point. Even if you're suggesting dumping Strength instead, you're not decreasing the MAD at all.
An optimization guide doesn't cover RP, even if it's a Bard guide.
Bards are skill-focused no matter what. Guidance isn't much help when you have a +14 to your skill already. Besides, you can get that with Magical Secrets.
Every class offers something, but Cleric doesn't offer nearly enough. I don't like the idea of giving up a single ASI for heavy armor, let alone a whole level.
A few notes again (wonder if anyone read my previous post? ^^).
1. Life Cleric: your critic is irrelevant for two reasons: one, the bonus is not dependent on a stat but only on spell level. Two, the bard has many good healing spells on his own spell list (and can get Aura if needed).
Also, sorry but... "The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels." Well, consider a character starting CHA 16 / WIS 13: your always prepared Cure Wounds already heals the same "as plain Bard" or "as Life Cleric". Would be the same with CHA 18 / WIS 14. If you decide to learn it as Bard, it's like a 2nd level spell cast as lvl1. :)
War cleric: a few bonus attacks from level 2, heavy armor proficiency (good for STR oriented Valor, no?), free cantrip.
2. Cleric/Druid: Guidance is very very good in itself: it's usable on anything, everytime. Free for abuse and complements Jack of All Trade very well for a "proficiency-like" bonus. Although if you only need it best use a Magic Initiate feat.
3. Cleric/Druid: each of the class provides several spells who don't depend on spellcasting ability to be efficient:
- Bless (Cleric): always nice for the team.
- Sanctuary / Shield of Faith (Cleric): "free" protect spells.
- Guiding Bolt / Command (Cleric): usable if you have advantage, otherwise indeed...
- Absorb Elements (Druid): no-concentration reaction spell for resistance to incoming damage and SCALING BONUS ELEMENTAL DAMAGE on next attack. Perfect for a Valor Bard.
- Animal Friendship / Detect *** / Healing Word&Cure Wounds / Jump/Longstrider: all these spells on the Bard list that could be interesting but didn't seem worth enough. Well, now you know them all!!!
4. Druid: WildShape for much more RP and scouting possibilities.
5. Shillelagh and general "Why would your WIS be 13 or more anyways" ? Well, why not? Getting 13 just for multiclass may be worth it considering all it brings.
For some multiclass builds, being WIS+CHA based instead of DEX+CHA based is not the end of the world with Shillelagh or Magic Stone. Athough it makes Warcaster absolutely necessary (and Resilient could be recommended).
So, I strongly advocate for Cleric and Druid to be at least both black: getting lots of free known and usable spells and additional benefits just for a stat requirement seems nice enough to me.
Especially when Barbarian is black (not being able to cast spells seems not a light requirement to me) and Ranger is purple (generally worse than other fighting classes and has WIS requirement).
Also, on Feats, I really don't understand why Magic Initiate is so high while Ritual Caster is so low. Sure, getting an upgradable lvl1 spell is nice. But you can just pick up Magic Secrets.
Contrarily, Ritual Caster brings you a pack of situational to very useful spells, generally not dependent on stat, and which further frees the Bard's memory to focus on exclusive non-ritual spells. Only drawback is the WIS or INT requirement (remember your question "why is your WIS 13" ?).
I'd propose Ritual Caster rating to be purple by default (low WIS/INT), black if WIS 13 and blue if INT 13 (because wizard has best ritual list and Find Familiar!!).
Thanks for reading. :)
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
1. Life Cleric: your critic is irrelevant for two reasons: one, the bonus is not dependent on a stat but only on spell level. Two, the bard has many good healing spells on his own spell list (and can get Aura if needed).
Also, sorry but... "The boost Life domain gives you only surpasses the difference between you CHA and WIS modifiers at much higher levels." Well, consider a character starting CHA 16 / WIS 13: your always prepared Cure Wounds already heals the same "as plain Bard" or "as Life Cleric". Would be the same with CHA 18 / WIS 14. If you decide to learn it as Bard, it's like a 2nd level spell cast as lvl1. :)
There is no reason to pump a Bard up to 14 WIS. It provides absolutely nothing. You even said yourself that it makes your heal equal to just using a Bard spell, which is wasting a level. Furthermore, you probably shouldn't multiclass until after you hit at least one ASI, so the Bard should have an 18 CHA with a 13 WIS at most. The gulf is not breached.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
War cleric: a few bonus attacks from level 2, heavy armor proficiency (good for STR oriented Valor, no?), free cantrip.
STR based Valor Bards are a bit too MAD for my taste, and having to throw in at least 13 points into WIS just makes it worse. The benefit is not worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
2. Cleric/Druid: Guidance is very very good in itself: it's usable on anything, everytime. Free for abuse and complements Jack of All Trade very well for a "proficiency-like" bonus. Although if you only need it best use a Magic Initiate feat.
Guidance is okay. I have seen it in play, and it is perfectly fine. It is not worth a level. I question using Magical Secrets to get it. Being good at every skill and fantastic at several makes Guidance's d4 questionably useful at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
3. Cleric/Druid: each of the class provides several spells who don't depend on spellcasting ability to be efficient:
- Bless (Cleric): always nice for the team.
- Sanctuary / Shield of Faith (Cleric): "free" protect spells.
- Guiding Bolt / Command (Cleric): usable if you have advantage, otherwise indeed...
- Absorb Elements (Druid): no-concentration reaction spell for resistance to incoming damage and SCALING BONUS ELEMENTAL DAMAGE on next attack. Perfect for a Valor Bard.
- Animal Friendship / Detect *** / Healing Word&Cure Wounds / Jump/Longstrider: all these spells on the Bard list that could be interesting but didn't seem worth enough. Well, now you know them all!!!
Everything here can be attained through Magic Initiate or Magical Secrets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
Well, why not?
It increases MAD with few benefits to balance this out, especially for Druids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
Getting 13 just for multiclass may be worth it considering all it brings.
The benefits are not worth the level(s), especially for Druids.
You convinced me to drop the Barbarian rating, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
Also, on Feats
Magic Initiate is another Magical Secrets you can take without much setback, depending on stats. Ritual Casting provides access to situational spells in other classes that may or may not be helpful, and you're already a ritual caster.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
There is no reason to pump a Bard up to 14 WIS. It provides absolutely nothing. You even said yourself that it makes your heal equal to just using a Bard spell, which is wasting a level. Furthermore, you probably shouldn't multiclass until after you hit at least one ASI, so the Bard should have an 18 CHA with a 13 WIS at most. The gulf is not breached.
My point with the Healing comparison was to prove that even if you cast Cure Wounds "as a cleric" it was nearly still as effective as a Bard learning it at level 1. And more effective with a decent WIS (which, by the way, could always help against many nasty spells since you are not proficient in it and can't use Bardic Inspiration on self). And becomes great as soon as you learn (as Bard obviously) better healing spells, becoming as good as a pure non-Life cleric.
Also, saying "Magic Secrets serves that purpose" is untrue: you can only cherry-pick some spells (and clearly you should use this to pick high-level spells anyways). While here you automatically learn all spells.
Well anyways, we clearly have different views on the benefit of having 10 useful spells always known and 2 always prepared (or WS), so I won't argue further.
Same with Ritual Caster: being able to learn "free" rituals from Wizard (which is Bard's list ++) or even Cleric/Druid seems far more interesting for me than getting two cantrips and one spell (especially since you can already get a specific spell with Magic Secrets, and they are MANY feats that bring more distinctive features to a spellcaster).
I'll stop here since we are now in a question of mutual-respected opposing opinions. :) And it's your guide after all! ^_^
Have a nice day!
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Hey, great stuff here! Could I just ask that you add a "suggested magical secrets" portion? Like 5 or 6 spells you consider completely necessary or at least a basis on what to choose.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
I know it's not exactly what you're looking at here but bard can make a solid dip for a wizard to get that sweet expertise on some of those knowledge skills he is likely to be the only one that has without actually costing him any spell slots (though he'll get to the higher level spells a tad slower).
Yeah, I know that belongs in the wizards guide but I'm tossing it out there for anyone who's looking at bard in order to be a mr. know it all.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
A STR Valor Bard can get 17 AC with Medium armor without getting too MAD. I don't buy that +1 AC is worth the feat. At least Medium Armor Master also provides a decent secondary benefit. Still, I suppose some might see value in it.
If you're a STR-based Valor bard, DEX becomes a VERY low priority stat. +1 AC isn't worth the feat. +3, though, is.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
I'll stop here since we are now in a question of mutual-respected opposing opinions. :) And it's your guide after all! ^_^
Have a nice day!
Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I was on vacation, and internet access was nonexistent. Then, I had to prepare for Gencon.
I think you raise excellent points, but I think we're just in disagreement over the relative worth of certain features. Thanks for your input, though, and especially thanks for the positivity!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pyon
Hey, great stuff here! Could I just ask that you add a "suggested magical secrets" portion? Like 5 or 6 spells you consider completely necessary or at least a basis on what to choose.
There's no way to narrow that down, though. Depending on your focus, there may or may not be any spells that are "necessary" to your build. Do you want blasting? Pick the spell that lets you do the most damage. Do you want Illusion or Charm spells? Pick one you don't already have access to. Maybe a Valor Bard wants some smites. Maybe a Lore Bard wants to keep people away from him. Maybe any Bard wants to be able to escape nasty situations. There are just too many spells for me to narrow everything down without my having to sift through every spell in the book, and none of them are absolutely necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hawkstar
If you're a STR-based Valor bard, DEX becomes a VERY low priority stat. +1 AC isn't worth the feat. +3, though, is.
It's not one feat, though. At the very minimum, it's two feats or a feat and a multiclass level. I'm not convinced it's worth the effort for that.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
It's not one feat, though. At the very minimum, it's two feats or a feat and a multiclass level. I'm not convinced it's worth the effort for that.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What's the second feat? You either take the heavy armor feat at 4, or multiclass to get all the proficiencies you need. Taking the feat allows you to completely ignore Dex, since you get around the bard's multiclass requirements.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GWJ_DanyBoy
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What's the second feat? You either take the heavy armor feat at 4, or multiclass to get all the proficiencies you need. Taking the feat allows you to completely ignore Dex, since you get around the bard's multiclass requirements.
Sorry, I was thinking of Heavy Armor Master.
I'm not saying that it's the worst idea ever, but let's look at the projection of a Valor Bard from first level who wants to dump DEX in favor of STR. There are some immediate disadvantages:
- Dumps a common save for an uncommon save.
- Dumps a stat that's the basis for several skills for one that bumps one skill.
- Lowers his initiative.
On the positive side, he bumps his max damage up an average of 2.5 HP per attack at the most, unless he multiclasses or takes another feat. In order to get a significant increase in damage potential, he has to eschew the use of a shield in favor of heavier weapons.
Of course, he won't get to deal that damage quite yet. Before he can be a solid melee attacker, he has to get through two levels with an AC of 11 and get through 1-2 levels with a max AC of 13-14 in order to finally gain an AC of 16-17. Then, wait until he can afford Plate.
OR
He could keep his Dex at a reasonable 14, spend his first two levels with an AC of 13, then bump it up to a reasonable 17-18 at level 3.
I'm not saying that Heavy Armor is useless or that a Valor Bard couldn't get any use out of it, but in order to be successful the Bard would have to either start at level 5 or spend a few levels unable to effectively fight in melee, making his high STR useless. It's fine for a Fighter/Bard multiclass, or even a Cleric/Bard multiclass, but it's very niche and its benefits are rather dubious compared to simply pumping up the DEX of your Valor Bard and giving him a shield. In fact, a STR Valor Bard with plate and a shield is on the same level as a DEX Valor Bard with Half-Plate and a shield, except the DEX Bard will have a higher initiative and can dodge spells more easily.
It's a niche build, that's why it's purple. Purple is for niche options.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
But you're learning all of those spells a level later, and you still have cleric healing spells prepared that are useless to you. The drawbacks keep this combination from being terribly powerful.
I have to say, I disagree here. I don't think you're really thinking of the long term benefit to the party a bard gets from this.
One level of Life Cleric is great. Aside from bless (one of the best buffs in the game), guidance (fantastic for everyone in the party), the heavy armor, and the +3 to healing word, you're also getting +5 HP every time you *USE* Aura of Vitality.
That means 2d6 (7) times 10 becomes 2d6+5 (12) times 10. That moves your average from 70 HP healed to 120 HP healed, and it can be spread around the party as you see fit. That's freaking amazing.
A Lore Bard can get 100% of that benefit from level 6, or a Valor Bard from 10. That's countless episodes of content the Bard can be tanking better (heavy armor with shield spell), buffing better, and healing better than anyone else in the party.
What are you giving up for it? Superior Inspiration? Cmon man. You need to think.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
I have a list of all possible core spells that can be taken with Magical Secrets picks:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Feel free to use in any way. I'm also not 100% on the accuracy as this list comes from a SQL query. I found only one mistake but if you see more just let me know!
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navigator
I have a list of all possible core spells that can be taken with Magical Secrets picks:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Feel free to use in any way. I'm also not 100% on the accuracy as this list comes from a SQL query. I found only one mistake but if you see more just let me know!
That's awesome! I'll put this in and give you due credit.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Hello EvilAnagram,
First and foremost, your guide is excellent and very meticulously done.
Just one small comment, I do think that healing word should be sky blue. Healing word serves as a way to get your allies on their feet during battle. This is more than emergency healing. Even good party get take a hit, and that's why healing word is so important. You get an ally on his/her feet while still attacking (Bonus action), this is great in my vocabulary. This is the best healing spell in combat and in my humble opinion, far superior to cure wounds. After combat, you can hope that your friends brought heir healing potions and got non-magical healing abilities as you soothe them with song of rest...
All the best,
R.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RuneBound
R.
Thank you for the feedback. I feel like I've just been handed a wonderfully handwritten letter from a particularly polite field mouse.
I ranked Healing Word on par with Cure Wounds because, while it only uses a bonus action, it doesn't heal all that much, so the spells seem on par to me. It's certainly a better choice for a Valor Bard, but Lore Bards might want to stick with Cure Wounds, as casting is most of what they do regardless.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TekDragon
I have to say, I disagree here. I don't think you're really thinking of the long term benefit to the party a bard gets from this.
One level of Life Cleric is great. Aside from bless (one of the best buffs in the game), guidance (fantastic for everyone in the party), the heavy armor, and the +3 to healing word, you're also getting +5 HP every time you *USE* Aura of Vitality.
That means 2d6 (7) times 10 becomes 2d6+5 (12) times 10. That moves your average from 70 HP healed to 120 HP healed, and it can be spread around the party as you see fit. That's freaking amazing.
A Lore Bard can get 100% of that benefit from level 6, or a Valor Bard from 10. That's countless episodes of content the Bard can be tanking better (heavy armor with shield spell), buffing better, and healing better than anyone else in the party.
What are you giving up for it? Superior Inspiration? Cmon man. You need to think.
Hi all!
Strongly agree here. 1-lvl dip for Life Cleric greatly improves buff/heal capacities. Since you also get usual Life Cleric prepared spells, you can also prepare Sanctuary or Shield of Faith.
At low levels, since we agree (I think) that Healing Word is the best in-combat spell but has low HP recovery, by adding 3HP at lvl 1 cast, you give a much higher chance for cured ally to not be down straight again next round at low levels. With starting stats of 18 CHA (let's be optimistic), you go from 1d4+4 (avg 6,5) to 1d4+4+3 (9,5), ~50% increase, not far from a Cure Wounds.
Later, Aura of Vitality combo or just Gooberries cheesiness (although it's a bit sad to use a Magic Secrets on lvl1 spell, could use Magic Initiate or lvl 1 Druid). :=)
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
Snip
I've been convinced that the Cleric is a reasonably decent dip, but it's still MAD, only works for a few builds, and still delays you spell learning. It's decent, but the barrier to entry (13 Wis) and the limited benefits (the spellcasting just mitigates the delay in Bard progression, you're only here for the Life feature) means it stays purple. it can't go above black. Enough people seem to really enjoy those Domain features, I suppose. Might as well upgrade it to reflect that.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
I just recently got to level 14 on my Lore Bard and would suggest that Peerless Skill probably deserves a Sky Blue rating. Ability checks go beyond just skill rolls and includes Dispel/Counterspell rolls if you have those spells and also the most commonly rolled ability check of them all: Initiative.
Adding a D10 or at level 15 a D12 to an initiative check already boosted by Jack of All Trades gives Lore Bards a high likelihood to go first in any give combat scenario. There are so many options to disable opponents at this level that the first striking ability provided by Peerless Skill is unmatched in its utility.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Hi all,
So in a game I'm playing now I started out as a bard without any plans for multiclassing but our DM gave as an RP moment where one of us could choose to take Warlock levels (pact of the fey), and eventually I took the opportunity.
I ended up taking 2 warlock levels and then 1 bard level so now I'm bard 6 warlock 2.
We're about to level up again and I've been wondering if I should take a 3rd warlock level, so I can get 2nd level spell slots and a pact boon.
I don't know if we are going to reach that high, but so far I didnt really mind what I was losing from the bard, but level 18 is where you get more magical secrets.
So what do you guys think? Is it worth it to go warlock 3 or should I just stick with bard from now on? And if I should take another warlock level, What pact is better chain or tome? ( blade seems underwhelming to me)
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PrismaRiyo
Hi all,
So in a game I'm playing now I started out as a bard without any plans for multiclassing but our DM gave as an RP moment where one of us could choose to take Warlock levels (pact of the fey), and eventually I took the opportunity.
I ended up taking 2 warlock levels and then 1 bard level so now I'm bard 6 warlock 2.
We're about to level up again and I've been wondering if I should take a 3rd warlock level, so I can get 2nd level spell slots and a pact boon.
I don't know if we are going to reach that high, but so far I didnt really mind what I was losing from the bard, but level 18 is where you get more magical secrets.
So what do you guys think? Is it worth it to go warlock 3 or should I just stick with bard from now on? And if I should take another warlock level, What pact is better chain or tome? ( blade seems underwhelming to me)
Thanks in advance.
I don't think another Warlock level is worth it, except at extreme high level. You don't get enough to justify delaying your Bard progression further - Level 2 pact slots and the boon aren't really worth it. You won't be dooming yourself to eternal mediocrity if you do it or anything, but I just wouldn't call it the better option.
If you do decide to, then I'd probably recommend Chain over Tome, as the latter really needs Book of Ancient Secrets to shine, and BoAS works off Warlock level. Your analysis of Blade is very much correct - it's respectable for a pure warlock, but rubbish for a dip (Tome is merely somewhat unspectacular - the Cantrip utility isn't as much of a boost for you as it would have been for a full Warlock).
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Any suggestions on building a bardcher?
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EKruze
Peerless Skill
Point well made. I'll consider it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PrismaRiyo
Bardlock
I would go for the extra level of Warlock. There are enough second level spells that are consistently worth casting regularly to justify it, and familiars can be insanely useful through the Chain Pact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crusher
Any suggestions on building a bardcher?
Pump Dex and snag Swift Quiver with your secrets.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Thanks.
Btw, superb guide.
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Hey there, new to the forum, hope I'm not necroing all that much.
EvilAnagram, I want to say thank you so much for making this guide. I'm new to D&D as a whole and will be playing my first game ever come Wednesday! Thanks to your guide (and others' guides), I was able to at least start my character relatively painless. Was super overwhelmed by possibilities, but having them all posted in one place is so helpful.
Also had a question if someone wouldn't mind answering, would it be dumb to try a LoreBard (15)/TomeLock (5) [or possibly 17/3] for a support/utility, buff/debuff kind of character? Was thinking of picking up Devil's Sight (120 feet 100% darkvision magical and non), Agonizing Blast, and the Tome Ritual invocations and just having like all the cantrips, all the spells, and all the... everything really. Again, this is my first time ever playing so if it's blatantly stupid, let me know! 15 Bard was mostly for Inspiration d12; don't really care about an extra 2 maximum on the Song of Rest, Superior or Superior Inspiration. Sucks I miss out on some Magical Secrets and a feat/2 ability points, but I feel like the extra Spell Slots (2 3rd-level) that reset on short rests, the extras 6+ spells (plus 3 cantrips and Tome rituals), and the 3 invocations are worth it, right?
(Edit: Another option might be 14/6?)
One last thing, using the above scenario and assuming I'm doing Adventure's League (where Ability spread is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and I'm a Dragonborn), would it be smart to do 15 Cha (16 from DB), 14 Dex, 13 Wis, 12 Con, 10 Int, and 8 Str (10 from DB), or would there be a better spread? Eldritch Blast will probably be my main damaging attack (will be going Bard 1 Warlock 2 (or 3), so I'll have EB very early!), though I'll have a rapier for melee and whatever Magical Secrets and other stuff I pick up.
Thanks again EvilAnagram, contributors to the guide, and other guide makers, you guys really made this as painless as possible <3 (PS: Might try making a Sorc using your guide if I want a second character sometime)
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Polarthief
EvilAnagram, I want to say thank you so much for making this guide. I'm new to D&D as a whole and will be playing my first game ever come Wednesday! Thanks to your guide (and others' guides), I was able to at least start my character relatively painless. Was super overwhelmed by possibilities, but having them all posted in one place is so helpful.
You're welcome! I'm glad I was able to help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Polarthief
Also had a question if someone wouldn't mind answering, would it be dumb to try a LoreBard (15)/TomeLock (5) [or possibly 17/3] for a support/utility, buff/debuff kind of character? Was thinking of picking up Devil's Sight (120 feet 100% darkvision magical and non), Agonizing Blast, and the Tome Ritual invocations and just having like all the cantrips, all the spells, and all the... everything really. Again, this is my first time ever playing so if it's blatantly stupid, let me know! 15 Bard was mostly for Inspiration d12; don't really care about an extra 2 maximum on the Song of Rest, Superior or Superior Inspiration. Sucks I miss out on some Magical Secrets and a feat/2 ability points, but I feel like the extra Spell Slots (2 3rd-level) that reset on short rests, the extras 6+ spells (plus 3 cantrips and Tome rituals), and the 3 invocations are worth it, right?
(Edit: Another option might be 14/6?)
In general, a Bardlock is a perfectly viable choice, and you in particular seem to have thought yours through pretty well. However, I would caution you not to plan your character for what he looks like at level 20. In fact, you're almost guaranteed not to reach level 20 in Adventurer's League play. You're going to be spending the bulk of your time between levels 5 and 12, which means you should plan your build to become viable around that time.
The key to a successful multiclass build is identifying your exit points - the levels you absolutely need to reach to enjoy yourself with that class' features. For Warlocks, second or third levels are usually decent exit points. For Lore Bards, sticking around until level 6 is common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Polarthief
One last thing, using the above scenario and assuming I'm doing Adventure's League (where Ability spread is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and I'm a Dragonborn), would it be smart to do 15 Cha (16 from DB), 14 Dex, 13 Wis, 12 Con, 10 Int, and 8 Str (10 from DB), or would there be a better spread? Eldritch Blast will probably be my main damaging attack (will be going Bard 1 Warlock 2 (or 3), so I'll have EB very early!), though I'll have a rapier for melee and whatever Magical Secrets and other stuff I pick up.
That's a decent spread. I might recommend switching your Wis and Con around since taking the Resilient Con feat is always a good choice for casters thanks to Concentration checks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Polarthief
Thanks again EvilAnagram, contributors to the guide, and other guide makers, you guys really made this as painless as possible <3 (PS: Might try making a Sorc using your guide if I want a second character sometime)
Thanks, I'm really glad to hear that!
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Re: Player's Gonna Play: A Bard's Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
In general, a Bardlock is a perfectly viable choice, and you in particular seem to have thought yours through pretty well. However, I would caution you not to plan your character for what he looks like at level 20. In fact, you're almost guaranteed not to reach level 20 in Adventurer's League play. You're going to be spending the bulk of your time between levels 5 and 12, which means you should plan your build to become viable around that time.
I always plan out stuff even if I'm Level 1, just to have a general plan to make sure I'm not screwed later down the line. I definitely plan to stay flexible based on the party's needs (as I will be primarily a support-y, skillmonkey, utility player with some blasting power), but I like having a plan to at least start with. Flexibility will definitely come into play regarding when/where I take the rest of my Bard levels vs Warlock levels (the only thing for sure is I will go B1/W3, and then from there it depends).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
The key to a successful multiclass build is identifying your exit points - the levels you absolutely need to reach to enjoy yourself with that class' features. For Warlocks, second or third levels are usually decent exit points. For Lore Bards, sticking around until level 6 is common.
I want to stick around in Bard for the majority of my character for the support-y nature and the extra spell slots as well. My main concern was my exit point for Warlock, as I see 3 (for the Tome and 2nd level slots instead of 1st), 5 (for 3rd level spell slots and an extra Invocation), and now even 6 (for Pact ability 2, though unlikely I will since I like Inspiration d12 and 8th level spell slot) as potential exit points. My biggest concerns included losing a feat/2 Ability Points and not obtaining a 9th level spell slot.
That said though, I don't have any plans to get a third class, though my second option instead of Warlock was Sorc, but that'll be for another day.
My other large concern was my Invocations which I feel are dumb, but I like the choices. Devil's Sight (120' bright light darkvision in magical and non), Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome gets 2 1st level rituals and I can add rituals up to Level 3 [assuming I go Warlock 5] into my book), and Agonizing Blast (+Cha modifier to EB? Yes please!) are my main three atm. Idk, I just feel like Devil's Sight is a dumb choice, but I find the uses for it amazing (especially combined with Darkness and having Adv on all my attacks + EBs and them having Disadv on all their attacks).
Also wasn't sure about which patron to pick; will probably go Fey though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
That's a decent spread. I might recommend switching your Wis and Con around since taking the Resilient Con feat is always a good choice for casters thanks to Concentration checks.
I must have read that feat 10 times, but it never stuck in my mind. Having proficiency on Con would be pretty nice for sure! (plus it only uses one of my two ability points for that. Very nice)
Would you say Con would be better for my build overall than Wis? Like I said, this is my first time playing so I wasn't sure how much I was going to be hit vs the extra Wis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EvilAnagram
Thanks, I'm really glad to hear that!
For sure! Also love the humor. Too many guides were just bland and objective. Reading lines like "I like having advantage. This does that thing that I like." (regarding Faerie Fire) is always a joy to read (and glad to see it stick through your other guides too!) ;) Thanks again for being awesome!