Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Wraith]

If the DA's really are getting a fresh coat of paint as you said, everything could be different when GW eventually releases it.

An educated guess more than anything, but so far in the last couple of years I've been pretty good at those.

Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights are already out, but they always make every other Codex a MEQ (usually Marines) ones.

And Black Templars were recently banned from a bunch of British Tournaments, nominally because the TO's don't like Land Raider spam but supposedly also because GW don't want people to be buying Black Templar armies just before they relaunch their only other candidate, the Dark Angels. Various whispers that I have heard around GW Lenton suggest that there is more than a little truth to this idea.

Something I'm a tad wary of: Is it worth it to take Accept Any Challenge when I'm already using Chaplains to give myself re-rolls to hit? I know I won't always get the charge, or could lose the Chaplains, but taking that chance and giving everyone a 6+ Invul instead and having some 40-odd points to spare might be worth it. Maybe. Thoughts?

Your Chaplains have neither Jump Packs nor Terminator Armour, which suggests to me that you're going to stick them with the foot-slogging units of Initiates. I think this is probably the worst choice available - a Chaplain with Additional Power Weapon, Terminator Honours, Meltabombs and a Jump Pack is horrifying to see in action!

As for vows, you have 60 guys on foot - the only Vow that you should consider, apart from AAC,NMTO, is Burn The Witch. The odds that you're not going to see an enemy Psyker in a 3,000 point game is incredibly small, and you want your guys to get across that field as fast as inhumanly possible. Without Rhinos or more Land Raiders, this is something that you should seriously consider.

Having said that, Chaplains only affect the unit that they're attached to, and AAC,NMTO affects your entire army. Keeping it would still be fun and effective.

Also, I agree with Ninjaman - you don't have enough vehicles. That single lonely Land Speeder is just an easy target in the eyes of your opponent. Either swap it for more bodies, or (and this is the far less sensible choice) drop a few bodies for a full Squadron of Land Speeders.

If nothing else, consider more Sword Brethren in your squads. 5 man squads, even in Terminator Armour, are going to be another easy target for anyone who has even a couple of Plasma Guns going spare - and again, in 3,000 points, they probably will.

[Cheesegear]

I tend to gear my lists towards shooting, so often I consider any squad that has neither jump packs nor terminator armor a lost cause if it gets into close combat.

Your words make sense, but your list completely fails to back them up. Your list have none of the mainstays that make Space Marines good (all of them 'shooty', by the way). Your list barely even has Melta/Plasma at all.

No Jump Packs, no Terminator Armour? Sounds like Honour Guard.

Second, you don't really take Force Dome to win combat, you win it to stall combat. No-one says "That unit's dead so don't worry about it." The most annoying thing in the world is Stubborn Guardsmen. Does the Commissar add killy-ness to the unit? Not even a little. The point of adding a Commissar or a Librarian with Force Dome is to stall Assaulters from running over the rest of your army.

Second, the Chapter Master is really bad. If you want shooty-for-shooty's sake (and it appears that you do, otherwise you wouldn't spend 25 points for nothing), take a Librarian with Vortex. Who cares that he needs Terminator to make it more effective? You say that like it's a bad thing. Terminator Armour gives him access to Storm Shields, which means he doesn't get gibbed when his Vortex goes wrong. Are you telling me that you consider Storm Shields bad? Regardless of why they're there?

If not Terminator Armour and you want to be 100 points (why not?). You're a shooty list. If you want to move (and not shoot Vortex), you're doing it wrong. So who cares if you can't move? You get to do it every turn - unlike a Chapter Master who gets One Shot at full Scatter.

Or, since the Chapter Master isn't doing anything, take a Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer. Use the extra cover bonus to give your Camo Cloak Telion'd Scouts a 2+ Cover Save. How is any of that bad?

Terminator Librarian w/ Storm Shield - 140 Points. Includes Force Weapon and Psychic Hood.
MotF w/ Conversion Beamer - 120 Points.

The only reason you take a Chapter Master over a Captain is to take Honour Guard - which are bad. And the only reason you're taking a bad Land Raider is to make bad Honour Guard only slightly less bad.

As stated above, i let my razorbacks do their damage to infantry and leave the lascannons to my foot soldiers, it works for me.

Again, I see the words, but not the action. Your Infantry don't have Lascannons.

I thought you had to be coming in from reserve for that to count. that changes that power.

Teleport Homers are not Locator Beacons. Two completely different pieces of wargear. Are you using Deep Strike rules? Yes? Then you are Deep Striking.

It's a highly specialised use of the Power since Locator Beacons are only found on Drop Pods and Scout Bikes. Scout Bikes are rarely used, and why wouldn't you have the Librarian in the Drop Pod to begin with? Unless you have two Librarians. Which most people consider a waste since Psychic Hoods only work once, once per power. But it's useful if you want to have two units in your enemy's DZ on the first turn.

no missile launcher. these guys are, in this list, strictly anti-toughness, something to plink at bikes or MCs or something.

Krak Missiles aren't anti-Toughness? When did that happen? Oh man, I hate wounding T5/6 on a 2+ and ignoring T4 FNP. Krak Missiles are terrible. I get it now.

I understand where you're coming from, but this decision was mostly based on the metagame of my store. even geared up tactical squads are less...killy than other units

Are you playing "Let's just kill each other." games, or only Annhilation games? If that's the case, then sure, why not just go for minimum 5-man Scout Squads and just load 1200 points into Hammernators?

Librarian - 100 Points
x2 Scouts - 150
x30 Hammernators - 1200 Points

Total: 1450. x2 Missile Launchers and two Power Weapons on the Scouts. 1500.

If that's not the case, then you need Scoring Troops.

thunderwolves, green tides, leman russ iron tides, nob bikers, tau suit swarms, guard airports, and blood angels vanguard veterans see a lot of use

Of those, Thunderwolves are the only things that give Space Marines trouble. If you're playing them right. Vanguard Veterans are incredibly annoying, but shouldn't kill more than one unit, and if you're playing Mech, shouldn't bother you much at all.

Guard Airports are a hassle, but if you pack enough Melta/Lascannons into the list (which you're not!), they go down the same as everything else.

You're getting 'swarmed' because you've got ~500 points tied up in a Land Raider and 4 models that don't have a 3+ Invulnerable. That's two full-strength Tactical Squads (including vehicles) right there. Or a Tactical Squad and vehicle and some Suicide Sternguard or Command Squad. Or something.

I'd argue they do, because once they've shot their load that's it for a turn or two, whereas if they've got a pod, the enemy has to KO or at least immobilize them that turn or it starts going all stompy. also, a pod makes it easy to score melta range for its meltagun.

See, the way you're using an Ironclad, could be better done using just a regular Land Speeder Typhoon for half the cost.

HK Ironclads are for shooting their load, and staying behind in your own DZ to counter opposing Deep Strikes or sitting with Tactical Squads waiting for something to Assault the Tacticals then coming in to save the day.

So, because Dark Angels are going to be the next marine Codex unleashed upon an unsuspecting populace

Everything I've read points to Black Templars. Just saying.

I'm sure Zorg would know. He knows everything.

[Provengreil]

Second, you don't really take Force Dome to win combat, you win it to stall combat. No-one says "That unit's dead so don't worry about it." The most annoying thing in the world is Stubborn Guardsmen. Does the Commissar add killy-ness to the unit? Not even a little. The point of adding a Commissar or a Librarian with Force Dome is to stall Assaulters from running over the rest of your army.

I WANT them to annihilate my 5 man combat squad or whatever really really fast. if they do it in 1 combat round, I kill them. if they're still in combat for an extra round or two, i don't.

Second, the Chapter Master is really bad. If you want shooty-for-shooty's sake (and it appears that you do, otherwise you wouldn't spend 25 points for nothing), take a Librarian with Vortex. Who cares that he needs Terminator to make it more effective? You say that like it's a bad thing. Terminator Armour gives him access to Storm Shields, which means he doesn't get gibbed when his Vortex goes wrong. Are you telling me that you consider Storm Shields bad? Regardless of why they're there?



If not Terminator Armour and you want to be 100 points (why not?). You're a shooty list. If you want to move (and not shoot Vortex), you're doing it wrong. So who cares if you can't move? You get to do it every turn - unlike a Chapter Master who gets One Shot at full Scatter.

Or, since the Chapter Master isn't doing anything, take a Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer. Use the extra cover bonus to give your Camo Cloak Telion'd Scouts a 2+ Cover Save. How is any of that bad?

Terminator Librarian w/ Storm Shield - 140 Points. Includes Force Weapon and Psychic Hood.
MotF w/ Conversion Beamer - 120 Points.

The only reason you take a Chapter Master over a Captain is to take Honour Guard - which are bad. And the only reason you're taking a bad Land Raider is to make bad Honour Guard only slightly less bad.

how many times am I going to have to type this bit? this was not a competitive list. Also, I WANTED TO HAVE HONOR GUARD BECAUSE I HAD THE MODELS FINALLY PAINTED AND I WANTED TO USE THEM. to do this, i needed a damn chapter master. I love storm shields, I've used librarians to great effect, i just didn't have one in this list.

Again, I see the words, but not the action. Your Infantry don't have Lascannons.

I think they had something, possibly a plasma or lascannon, but it never drew LOS in this particular match, and was thus never fired, so I don't remember. i've said like 4 times now that some guys had gear i couldn't remember.

Krak Missiles aren't anti-Toughness? When did that happen? Oh man, I hate wounding T5/6 on a 2+ and ignoring T4 FNP. Krak Missiles are terrible. I get it now.

gosh, me too. I also hate having BS 3 anti-tank weaponry that shoots at infantry all day. maybe i'll just save money and take a sniper rifle.

Are you playing "Let's just kill each other." games, or only Annhilation games? If that's the case, then sure, why not just go for minimum 5-man Scout Squads and just load 1200 points into Hammernators?

Librarian - 100 Points
x2 Scouts - 150
x30 Hammernators - 1200 Points

Total: 1450. x2 Missile Launchers and two Power Weapons on the Scouts. 1500.

If that's not the case, then you need Scoring Troops.

we have a few players that hate playing with objectives, but I usually roll on the charts. why don't I do the above? because it's cheap, cheesy, and not very fun to me. that's like asking why I don't play pun pun when I play D&D. just because a "strongest" option exists does not mean I should take it and never look back. Also, I HAVE scoring troops, up to 4 of them via combat squads.i just try to protect them, and it tends to work well enough.

Of those, Thunderwolves are the only things that give Space Marines trouble. If you're playing them right. Vanguard Veterans are incredibly annoying, but shouldn't kill more than one unit, and if you're playing Mech, shouldn't bother you much at all.

Guard Airports are a hassle, but if you pack enough Melta/Lascannons into the list (which you're not!), they go down the same as everything else.

You're getting 'swarmed' because you've got ~500 points tied up in a Land Raider and 4 models that don't have a 3+ Invulnerable. That's two full-strength Tactical Squads (including vehicles) right there. Or a Tactical Squad and vehicle and some Suicide Sternguard or Command Squad. Or something.

vanguard vets beat the crap out of me because they charge the dudes with the heavy weapons, end up in the 3+ cover my techmarines set up, and thus survive the ensuing retaliation fire. or similar issues. airports might lose to me more if I could hit anything, and you can ask Ithilanor about that one; he's seen me at it. I have a tub of dice I got as a prize for worst performance in a tournament ever: 7 lascannons and 15 terminators in the list, 3 games, one kill point. it was a trukk. the new dice didn't change anything.

See, the way you're using an Ironclad, could be better done using just a regular Land Speeder Typhoon for half the cost.

HK Ironclads are for shooting their load, and staying behind in your own DZ to counter opposing Deep Strikes or sitting with Tactical Squads waiting for something to Assault the Tacticals then coming in to save the day.

I use the ironclad like i do to come down, KO a vehicle, and be an OH, S*** factor. that does best with a meltagun, and I don't replace the storm bolter because I don't expect it to live. this really isn't that different from suicide sternguard, it just turns different units towards itself. If it lives, it's nigh unkillable in close combat when compared to normal dreadnoughts, so it can tie up other units pretty well. otherwise, it hits at S10 AP 1 so i can wreck more vehicles. If it's in the backfield, they just avoid it with ease.

[BoSheck]

that's like asking why I don't play pun pun when I play D&D. just because a "strongest" option exists does not mean I should take it and never look back.

For those of you listening at home, what Provengriel is referencing is a Dungeons and Dragons thought exercise in a previous edition that results in near-infinite ability scores and thus the ability to obtain deific status at level 1. The kind of optimization that lead to the creation of the Theorhetical Optimization boards on the Wizards website, ages ago. Anyone involved in those boards would balk at the idea of playing such a character on the table.

I felt the need to note, since this doesn't seem like something everyone would know, that this (Pun-Pun) is more akin to a rules exploit than 'cheesy' or 'cheap'. The exact sort of thing that would get you disqualified from a tournament and probably result in a disinvitation. Whereas, immediately upon seeing the list with 30x hammernators, I lol'd. Then I thought "that would be fun to play against, but it would fold to an army with a great weight of fire or a highly mobile force. It can be assessed as a 'gimmicky' list, at best, but certainly not overpowered. I'd call it Rock, and it should lose handily to Paper.

And, as a pre-emptive measure, since you come off as a little defensive on this end, the previous two paragraphs are in no way an attack on you, merely an informational post for the casual reader.

/the more you know


Now then, list critique:

"I don't think it would be fun" is a fine reason for not doing something, but dont' expect detailed tactical and listbuilding advice when that argument keeps coming up to defend questionable choices. Analyzing lists takes some amount of time and energy. When someone questions something, especially when that someone has a depth of knowledge about the game and all the armies (!!), you don't have to do exactly what they say, but it might be well to evaluate that unit's specific performance over multiple games and common situations.

A good example is, I'm looking at my wolf scouts right now. I've always accepted them as hit or miss, but they've been REALLY miss lately. Sometimes they just DESTROY everything on the back line, but when I think about it good and hard they haven't done a single thing in the last 6 games I've played with them. Beforehand if anyone had said anything about them I'd say "no way!" but now...

It's good to evolve your list and your tactics alongside it.

[Erloas]

we have a few players that hate playing with objectives, but I usually roll on the charts. why don't I do the above?

I think this is exactly the reason why they have objectives and you should always roll on the game type. The people that hate objectives are almost always the ones that simply refuse to learn how to play them or refuse to build a well rounded list that can deal with them. They are generally poor players overall too because they simply can't adapt to change and have a hard time thinking ahead.


As for your list... why post and ask for advice if you are going to ignore all of it and take everything you had originally no matter what anyone says? If you ask for help and then completely ignore it and whine and complain at the people offering the help that you asked for its not going to take long before people simply ignore you.

[Ninjaman]

I think this is exactly the reason why they have objectives and you should always roll on the game type. The people that hate objectives are almost always the ones that simply refuse to learn how to play them or refuse to build a well rounded list that can deal with them. They are generally poor players overall too because they simply can't adapt to change and have a hard time thinking ahead.


As for your list... why post and ask for advice if you are going to ignore all of it and take everything you had originally no matter what anyone says? If you ask for help and then completely ignore it and whine and complain at the people offering the help that you asked for its not going to take long before people simply ignore you.

Seconded. Both.

[Squark]

I think this is exactly the reason why they have objectives and you should always roll on the game type. The people that hate objectives are almost always the ones that simply refuse to learn how to play them or refuse to build a well rounded list that can deal with them. They are generally poor players overall too because they simply can't adapt to change and have a hard time thinking ahead.


As for your list... why post and ask for advice if you are going to ignore all of it and take everything you had originally no matter what anyone says? If you ask for help and then completely ignore it and whine and complain at the people offering the help that you asked for its not going to take long before people simply ignore you.

To be fair, I was the one who asked him to post his list, because he was complaining that Grey Knights were much more powerful than Codex Marines.

[Provengreil]

I think this is exactly the reason why they have objectives and you should always roll on the game type. The people that hate objectives are almost always the ones that simply refuse to learn how to play them or refuse to build a well rounded list that can deal with them. They are generally poor players overall too because they simply can't adapt to change and have a hard time thinking ahead.


As for your list... why post and ask for advice if you are going to ignore all of it and take everything you had originally no matter what anyone says? If you ask for help and then completely ignore it and whine and complain at the people offering the help that you asked for its not going to take long before people simply ignore you.

Amusingly, you pegged the people that don't like objectives perfectly, to the point where the punchline of a joke on them was "...and they shall know no rules."(they're both wolf players).

And as for my list, I didn't post it asking for advice, I posted it because Squark asked me to for a reference point. i should also note that I was not claiming it won because it was good so much as the enemy, the grey knights, failed a few certain rolls that totally changed the game's direction to the point where I crushed him with a third of my army and no losses save the honor guards, the point of which was to say the the knights are really good at everything they do because they clearly can't afford to fail at almost anything they do, owing to body count issues in many of their lists.

So all told, I'm done answering questions about a largely irrelevant and half remembered list I wrote for one game 2 months ago to use some pretty models.

[Hootman]

You have 2 vehicles, they are going to get shot to pieces.

Also, I agree with Ninjaman - you don't have enough vehicles. That single lonely Land Speeder is just an easy target in the eyes of your opponent.

Alternatively, the three I have are too many. From what I understand, there's something to be said for a list that puts most of the anti-tank weapons the enemy has out of work. The unfortunate truth is that I don't own more than one Land Raider, and was hoping that a big honking fire magnet at half-court with a 4+ Cover save on Turn 1 would be a good distraction. Then again, Black Templars sort of WANT to get shot at (at least enough to lose one Neophite), and anti-tank weapons are generally only used against infantry anyways if there aren't any tanks in range of them. "Look at me, I'm pulling away all of the lascannons....that they weren't going to fire at you anyways!" Shoot, that IS dumb. I suppose I could mount up in a bunch of Rhinos, but that sort of defeats the purpose of running a Power-Horde and skips out on that "Run forward when it's not your turn" thing. Is it really worth it to ditch the horde and just run a Rhino-Rush like I'm Berzerkers without Furious Charge?

Your Chaplains have neither Jump Packs nor Terminator Armour, which suggests to me that you're going to stick them with the foot-slogging units of Initiates. I think this is probably the worst choice available - a Chaplain with Additional Power Weapon, Terminator Honours, Meltabombs and a Jump Pack is horrifying to see in action!

That was the idea, yes. Having a horde of guys charging forward 6+1d6+(1d6+3) inches per turn automatically, assuming they take at least one casualty in the enemy shooting phase, seemed like a great idea to me. Giving the Chaplain a Jump Pack negates about half of his special rules, so I have no idea why you'd do it--jump infantry don't get to make Righteous Zeal tests, and thus only move about as fast as the horde on average (slightly slower, if you count Crusader Seals).

Also, minor nit-pick, Chaplains gain no benefit from buying a second power weapon, aside from possibly looking cool. Which I guess is reason enough itself. Sorry, moving on!

As for vows, you have 60 guys on foot - the only Vow that you should consider, apart from AAC,NMTO, is Burn The Witch.

I completely agree...except that my metagame, bizzarely, has almost ZERO psykers. Necrons (the guy who suggested playing 3000, which almost no one else can do but me), Sisters of Battle, DA Deathwing/Chaos Marines, Orks/Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids and Grey Knights who are both absent. Aside from the absentees, there really aren't any psykers in any of those armies. The lack of power armor in general is honestly really weird...So I guess I'm keeping AAC,NMTO.

If nothing else, consider more Sword Brethren in your [terminator] squads.

What should I cut to get those? The Landspeeder is almost 2, but unless I drop the Dread (which can hide in Cover and be Venerable, giving it a pretty good shot at survival) or the Land Raider, I don't believe I have a lot of fat to trim. And if I did drop the Dread, it seems like it would be smarter to just try for a third squad of double-cyclones to get even more shots out there and force my enemy to split fire more.

I sincerely hope that, if Black Templars DO get re-done, they give them the ability to take more than 2 Chaplains. Or Mob Rule--that would be pretty funny. Actually, given that Marshalls can give everyone Ld 10 (but only so long as he's alive), would it be more effective to just go for a Marshall and a Banner to make sure I always pass the leadership checks to run forward? That gyps me out of my +3 inches on two squads though...

[Wraith]

Everything I've read points to Black Templars. Just saying.

I'm sure Zorg would know. He knows everything.

I say this in all sincerity without a trace of sarcasm: I am sceptical that I will be, but I look forward to being proved wrong.

I completely agree...except that my metagame, bizzarely, has almost ZERO psykers.

That is genuinely surprising.
Still, go with what works and never forget that whichever one you choose, Page 23 of you Codex says that Vows will persist even if the Emperor's Champion is killed. You would be amazed how often your opponent will demand to see that in writing - Possibly as much as once per turn, if your experience turns out anything like mine!

What should I cut to get those?

A couple of Neophytes from each Squad. Both of the Master of Sanctitys' Bionics and Auxpex. Maybe one of their Servitors, too. The Assault Squad's Plasma Pistols.

I'm making no guarantees, of course, but these are all things that I don't use in my own army and I can't say that I miss them in the slightest.

I sincerely hope that, if Black Templars DO get re-done, they give them the ability to take more than 2 Chaplains.

I completely agree. In fact, I'd be quite happy if one could buy Chaplains outside of the FoC and attach one to each of my squads, like Wolf Guard perhaps.
(I originally thought that this is how the Reclusiarch Command Squad rule worked before I read it properly, and was somewhat disappointed when I got it figured out.... )

Also, minor nit-pick, Chaplains gain no benefit from buying a second power weapon, aside from possibly looking cool. Which I guess is reason enough itself. Sorry, moving on!

As it happens, I have indeed converted a Chaplain With Jump Pack to dual-wield a pair of Crozius Arcanum, and he looks awesome (if I do say so myself )

[Cheesegear]

how many times am I going to have to type this bit? this was not a competitive list.

Apologies, then. I was under the assumption that you were trying to make one...

I tend to get swamped if I have to many tactical marines. thunderwolves, green tides, leman russ iron tides, nob bikers, tau suit swarms, guard airports, and blood angels vanguard veterans see a lot of use, and all of these outrange or outfight tacticals, so i just end up with no troops fairly fast unless i put points into stuff that'll stand up to all that.

...and as well as the few complaints that Grey Knights were stronger than Codex Marines - as Squark pointed out - I thought you were trying to make your list better.

If you're not running a competitive list, it seems that your opponents are.

Also, I WANTED TO HAVE HONOR GUARD BECAUSE I HAD THE MODELS FINALLY PAINTED AND I WANTED TO USE THEM.

That's cool. Use them as Sergeants or start on a combat-y Command Squad or something. I absolutely hate seeing beautiful models go to waste and completely understand where you're coming from. But, if they have bad rules-sets then I try and use them for something else.

...If I didn't already have one, I'd use the new Finecast models and carve them up and put the top halves on Bikers for a Bike Command Squad.

I say this in all sincerity without a trace of sarcasm: I am sceptical that I will be, but I look forward to being proved wrong.

In that vein, I'm starting Black Templars this Christmas. But I've wanted to do it for quite some time anyway. If all else fails, I'll use them as Minotaurs and paint up Castellan with Storm Shield and super-spear.

Also, as Dreadnoughts, Contemptor Dreadnoughts are affected by Vows.

As it happens, I have indeed converted a Chaplain With Jump Pack to dual-wield a pair of Crozius Arcanum, and he looks awesome (if I do say so myself )

Consider it stolen copied.

[Wraith]

Consider it stolen copied.

Awesome, thanks!

Bcause I seldom get the chance to show off, please indulge me for a moment when I say that if you take this guy and give him the arm from this guy, the results are simple yet - and though I say so myself - highly satisfactory.

Spoiler

Show

[HalfTangible]

Awesome, thanks!

Bcause I seldom get the chance to show off, please indulge me for a moment when I say that if you take this guy and give him the arm from this guy, the results are simple yet - and though I say so myself - highly satisfactory.

Spoiler

Show

...............

So... bloody... awesome....

[Ninjaman]

Wraith@ and by giving the boltpistol from the jumppack chap you can make the other one into a quite nice sergant.

[Wraith]

Technically I could, though I am bloody cack-handed with clippers and mangled that particular arm beyond repair.

I might dig out a spare arm and fix him to do that at some point, though I also might not bother.
I *hate* the Space Marine models that don't have a helmet, and unless I can find a plastic Chaplain head to perform a swap with, he will never be used in my army. The best he can hope for is to be comfy in my Bitz Box until one of my friends finds him and turns him into a Renegade Chaos Marine or something,

[Ninjaman]

Technically I could, though I am bloody cack-handed with clippers and mangled that particular arm beyond repair.

I might dig out a spare arm and fix him to do that at some point, though I also might not bother.
I *hate* the Space Marine models that don't have a helmet, and unless I can find a plastic Chaplain head to perform a swap with, he will never be used in my army. The best he can hope for is to be comfy in my Bitz Box until one of my friends finds him and turns him into a Renegade Chaos Marine or something,

What a sad fate. *Cries*

[userpay]

Might not the best place to ask but I figured its among those that are most likely to know. Have there been any homebrew for DnD 3.5 thats based off of Warhammer 40k? Been reading some Warhammer 40k novels of late and thats got me hankering to make a character.

[Tome]

Might not the best place to ask but I figured its among those that are most likely to know. Have there been any homebrew for DnD 3.5 thats based off of Warhammer 40k? Been reading some Warhammer 40k novels of late and thats got me hankering to make a character.

There's a line of actual 40K RPGs by Fantasy Flight Games that are extremely well regarded.

Comes in four flavours:

• Dark Heresy - Play as Inquisitorial Acolytes, die horribly.
• Rogue Trader - Play as a Rogue Trader and crew, be badass enough not to die horribly.
• Deathwatch - Play as a Kill Team of Astartes, be badass and make other things die horribly.
• Black Crusade - Play as a group of Chaos-worshipping Heretics or Traitor Astartes, be hideously mutated and then die horribly anyway.

All are pretty popular and can be reworked to play as different groups pretty easily (like using Dark Heresy to run an IG campaign). They have somewhat extensive, and fun, critical hit tables.

[userpay]

There's a line of actual 40K RPGs by Fantasy Flight Games that are extremely well regarded.

Comes in four flavours:

• Dark Heresy - Play as Inquisitorial Acolytes, die horribly.
• Rogue Trader - Play as a Rogue Trader and crew, be badass enough not to die horribly.
• Deathwatch - Play as a Kill Team of Astartes, be badass and make other things die horribly.
• Black Crusade - Play as a group of Chaos-worshipping Heretics or Traitor Astartes, be hideously mutated and then die horribly anyway.

All are pretty popular and can be reworked to play as different groups pretty easily (like using Dark Heresy to run an IG campaign). They have somewhat extensive, and fun, critical hit tables.

Thanks for pointing those out, I'll keep them in mind in case I want to learn a new system in a few years. Twas asking for 3.5 since thats what I know and I'm hesitant to learn new systems in the middle of school.

[Cheesegear]

Have there been any homebrew for DnD 3.5 thats based off of Warhammer 40k?

Loads. But, it's homebrew. Very little - if any - is ever going to be as good as the real RPG that already exists.

The d100/percentile system of the Dark Heresy set of games. Seriously - anyone - is FFG ever going to come up with a collective name for it? Is there one already? Or is it just 'The 40K RPGs by FFG'?

Twas asking for 3.5 since thats what I know and I'm hesitant to learn new systems in the middle of school.

In all honesty, what makes 40K, well, 40K is the background, not the mechanics.

A good set of rules is d20 Future, or perhaps even a rejiggered d20 Star Wars (SWSE). Both have plenty of rules that can represent most - if not all - of what 40K 'is'. After you've got a good rules representation, the rest is up to the DM's setting - which is 40K. I believe what most people did before FFG, was play SWSE in a different setting.

I believe that the main problem that most homebrewers end up with is the ludicrous stats of Marines and the LA that it gave made them unreasonable as player characters.

[Provengreil]

In all honesty, what makes 40K, well, 40K is the background, not the mechanics.

This. seriously, refluff magic as psychic powers, and weapon/armor enhancements as power weapon tech, and you have a baseline for making 3.5 into 40K, though dark heresy seems pretty good(I've read its main rulebook, but never played it).

If you want to try coming up with your own set of homebrew, the homebrew forums are the place to go.

[The Glyphstone]

I believe that the main problem that most homebrewers end up with is the ludicrous stats of Marines and the LA that it gave made them unreasonable as player characters.

Which, IMO, is missing the point. D&D 3.x rules would only be suitable for playing Marines, exactly as normal characters are written without high stats or level adjustment. What a typical, mundane D&D character can accomplish is drastically past anything a human can accomplish.

[Hootman]

Yesterday was a MAGNIFICENT day for 40k! At least, it was for me.

I played versus Tyranids (of course, after I said that the Nid player was missing, the Dark Eldar player decided to play Nids), at 1750 points. Let me tell you the tale of my great victory, for the glory of Him On Earth!

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THE LISTS
Because of the way this tournament works, we do not know what point value we are playing until AFTER we know who our opponent is (the point value choice is a consensus among the two players). As such, some minor "tailoring" is considered perfectly acceptable--I, for instance, chose not to buy Melta Bombs for any of my units, and decided to try out Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch as my vow, since none of the other players use Psykers.

Black Templars

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HQ
Emperor's Champion, 110pts
-Vow: Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

Reclusiarch, 132pts
-Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Terminator Honors
-2 Cenobyte Servitors

Reclusiarch, 132pts
-Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Terminator Honors
-2 Cenobyte Servitors

ELITES
Sword Brethren Terminator Squad 5, 250pts
-2 Cyclone Missile Launchers

Sword Brethren Terminator Squad 5, 250pts
-2 Cyclone Missile Launchers

Dreadnought, 148pts
-Twin-Linked Lascannon, DCCW (Stormbolter), Venerable, Smoke Launchers

TROOPS
Crusader Squad 17, 245pts
-9 Initiates (Pistol & CCW), Powerfist, Flamer
-8 Neophites (Shotguns)

Crusader Squad 17, 245pts
-9 Initiates (Pistol & CCW), Powerfist, Flamer
-8 Neophites (Shotguns)

Crusader Squad 16, 235pts
-9 Initiates (Pistol & CCW), Powerfist, Flamer
-7 Neophites (Shotguns)

TOTAL: 1747 points

Tyranids

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HQ
Hive Tyrant
-Hive Commander, 2 Brain Leech Devourers
-Powers: Paroxysm, Leech Essense

ELITES
Zoanthropes 3
+Mycetic Spore

Zoanthropes 3
+Mycetic Spore

TROOPS
Termigants 18

Tervigon
-Feel No Pain psychic power (Catalyst?)

Hormagaunts, between 20 and 30

HEAVY SUPPORT
Trygon Prime

Trygon Prime

Mawloc

THE GAME
Mission: ANNIALATION
Deployment: DAWN OF WAR
First To Play: OPPONENT

Set Up
My opponent set up first. His Tervigon hid behind some cover in the back right side of the board from my perspective. The Hormagaunts were set up front and center, well-spread out. The Hive Tyrant hung back behind the Horm's near some ruins, giving them synapse.

I placed one 9/8 Crusader Squad with a Reclusiarch (Inquisitor Maximilian Monta'nah) right in front of the Tervigon on my side of the board, and well out of range of the Hormagaunts. I placed the other 9/8 Squad on the left, holding back a ways from the Hormagaunts, because I knew ATW,DTW would force me forward, and I didn't want to get charged on Turn 1 without my second Chaplain.

ATW,DTW indeed made me move fowards (4 inches on the left, 1 inch on the right), and I failed to Seize The Initiative.

TURN 1

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The Termagants and both Trygon Primes moved onto the field within a foot of the Tervigon. The Tervigon squatted to lay some babies...and rolled doubles, putting out a whopping 8 before going sterile, continuing the fine tradition of Tervigons always going sterile on the first clutch. The Homagaunts moved forward, and the Hive Tyrant moved with them. The Mawloc moved onto the field and immediately burrowed. The newly minted Termagants were thrown directly into the teeth of my Crusaders, for no reason other than my opponent's amusement. They were swiftly torn apart by my mighty soldiers, and they consolidated forward, preparing for the fight of a lifetime.

On my turn, I brought on my 2nd Chaplain to join the left-most Crusaders and shifted position to better counter the Hormagaunt advance should they fail their charge next turn. One Terminator Squad came in center stage, but couldn't see anything through the darkness. Neither could the squad that came in from my far right corner, though the great bio-monstrosities loomed somewhere out in the night. The Dreadnought and the final Crusader squad, led by my Emperor's Champion (Captain Han Salio) entered together to the right of the center, and got poor runs.

Inquisitor Max's squad, fearless and ready for combat, surged forward! Some of the men moved to engage the 18 Termagants, while Max and the Powerfist lined up for a multi-assault on the Tervigon itself. Half the Termagants were consumed in flame and downed to assault-fire, and then the battle was joined! Max landed one wound, the Termagants were annialated to the bug, and the Powerfist got another one or two. Some 12 Fearless Saves later, the Tervigon stubbornly clung to life with one wound remaining...DAMN.

Score: 2-0, me.

TURN 2

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One Pod of Zoanthropes scattered to land about a foot from Max, to start this turn. In addition, the Mawloc arrived and tried to destroy my Champion! However, the Emperor smiled upon us and the beast went wide, striking only the mighty Venerable Dreadnought, doing no damage. The Hormagaunts moved and ran...getting a 6 and landing within charge range. It wasn't looking so good for me. The Tyrant continued to tag along with them, supervising. The Zoanthropes are just within range of Warp Blasting Captain Salio's group, so they try--my psychic defenses block one of the blasts, and another scatters away. I lose about 5 Neophytes to the third blast and Zeal my way over to surround the Mawloc. The two Trygons assault Max's boys, and I lose about 10 of them while I kill off the Tervigon. Fearless Saves (my own, now) bring me down to Max, 3 Initiates, and no Power Fist. Ugh. On the other side of the board, the Hormagaunts swarm into battle with my Crusaders...but they can't get everyone into the fight! Because of their widely spread formation, they could only get 9 into combat with me, while I could hit back with all 15 or so that survived the Hormagaunt charge. I won combat easily, and the Hormagaunts lost another half-dozen. Only a few more kills, and they'd have been pulled out of synapse...

My Terminators push forward, taking shots at what they can see. The Tyrant loses two wounds to missiles, and two Zoanthropes get Instant Death'd. The Champion and the Dreadnought come to blows with the Mawloc, cutting it down to one wound. Not being Fearless, the Mawloc fails its Leadership test, and is instantly squashed by my victorious troops and Shaken Dreadnought. Inquisitor Max is not so lucky--his squad gets torn apart after putting one wound on each Trygon, and the monsters consolidate towards me. GOOD. COME AT ME, VILE MONSTERS! To clean up this turn, the left-Crusader assault versus the Hormagaunts continues to go in my favor by a large margin, and Fearless Saves drag them kicking and screaming some 8 inches out of synapse.

Score: 4-2, me.

TURN 3

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The second pod of Zoanthropes came down just south of dead center, and immediately try to Warp Lance my Dreadnought. My Vow, however, shrugged off one of the lances like it was nothing, while the second unfortunately immobilized the great machine. The final shot, if you're keeping track, came up Perils and wounded that Zoanthrope in spite of his 3++. The Tyrant took out two of my center Terminators with all of his worms, but I still passed my Zeal and moved up next to the Spore Pod. The Trygons come forward to take shots at the Champion's rapidly advancing unit, but they only succeeded in making me come to within my own charge range for my next turn. The lone first-pod Zoanthrope fired at the right-Terminators, but they shrugged it off easily. The left-assault finally ended this turn, with my heroic Templars exterminating the last of the Hormagaunts and starting their move toward the Hive Tyrant.

The left-Terminators move out of range of the Pod and fire on the Tyrant, bringing him to one wound. The left-Crusaders move and run 11" to get within range of the Tyrant for the next turn. The right-Terminators advance and fire on one Trygon, putting another wound or two on it. Captain Salio and his men charge this Trygon, but unfortunately they underestimated the weakened Trygon and lost 5 of their own, leaving only Salio and the Powerfist, which splattered the big bug for revenge.

Score: 6-2, me.

TURN 4

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The bloodied Hive Tyrant moved up and Leeched the essense of one of my Terminators, returning to 2 wounds. The Zoanthropes didn't do squat--one test failed, and the other two were either blocked or missed. The second Trygon, eager to taste the wrath of Salio's Black Blade, charged the Champion and the remaining Initiate. The Captain, unfortunately, was not able to damage the Trygon, and his partner was annialated--he stood firm, however, his ancient armor seeming impenetrable in the frantic melee.

Rushing to their Champion's rescue, the right-Terminators hurried into assault range. They arrived just in time to watch Salio draw blood before being swallowed whole and, in their most righteous rage, tore the monstrous creature apart with their Powerfists. They pulled Salio from the gushing remains--he would live, but he could no longer fight today. On the left, the two Cyclone Terminators who remained advanced right up to the wall of a ruin, with the Hive Tyrant immediately on the other side. The Crusaders likewise swooped in to flank the monster, moving far enough that they could even reach the trio of Zoanthropes on the other side of the Tyrant with a spirited charge. The Terminators fired on the Zoan's, once again ID'ing two of them, the last one having one wound left. And then, as a cry went up for vengeance for their beloved Champion, the Chaplain signaled the assault. The Crusaders multi-assaulted the Tyrant and the Zoanthrope, while the Terminators multi-assaulted the Zoanthrope and the Spore Pod. The Chaplain hurled himself at the Tyrant like a man possessed, and slew it before a single other battle brother could even launch an attack. A few Initiates carved up the Zoanthrope, and the Terminators directed all of their attacks on the Pod. Unfortunately, the Pod got in a lucky shot that sent one Terminator flying back through the walls of the ruins they had just crashed out of, but the other had no trouble punching straight through the great wiggly thing and crushing whatever passed for its heart. At some point, when no one was really paying much attention, the Dreadnought fired his Lascannon at the lonely Zoanthrope who landed in the beginning of the game, and quite succinctly put it out of its misery.

Score: 10-4, me.

TURN 5

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The only remaining Tyranid unit, the first Spore Pod, could not reach the Terminators who had rescued their fallen Champion--its disappointment was almost palatable. Mere moments later, the Pod was blown into a million tiny pieces as it was Instant Death-d about 5 times by three different units.

GAME OVER.
MASSACRE, TABLING.
FINAL SCORE: 11-4, me.
THE BLACK TEMPLARS ARE VICTORIOUS!!!

I had a wonderful time, and my opponent did as well, so everything went perfectly as far as I'm concerned. I was really impressed by my somewhat unexpected durability in close combat (especially with the Hormagaunts, who didn't just lay a half-dozen power attacks on me and call it a day). I noticed, however, that without AAC,NMTO as my vow, I REALLY needed to get the charge if I want to clean up well in most combats. However, for this particular game, I wouldn't have traded Abhor The Witch for anything--the number of times I was saved by it was just shy of ridiculous, and it made the whole game easier and frustrated my opponent's Zoanthropes to no end. One real mistake I made was going after the Tervigon without realizing that BOTH Trygons would be able to charge me if I failed to kill it off. However, Max and his boys still did well, considering the circumstances, and made it so the Trygons had to waste a turn killing them off while my Champion claimed the Mawloc's head and moved to mid-field. Another thought--Wraith was right about needing an extra Terminator or two in my squads when there's anything that can drown them in saves hanging around the field. Both squads survived through the end, but the one that actually took damage was on its last man. Anyhow, this game was great, and it allowed me to secure 2nd place for the week. Necron-Guy is ahead of me, but I'm pretty confident I can stomp him next time--maybe we'll actually get to play that 3000 point game then.

[Eldan]

Which, IMO, is missing the point. D&D 3.x rules would only be suitable for playing Marines, exactly as normal characters are written without high stats or level adjustment. What a typical, mundane D&D character can accomplish is drastically past anything a human can accomplish.

The idea was probably more that if you compared the normal marine to another character (say, a guardsman), the Marine is obviously a lot stronger, and a lot of what he has would be called a template in D&D, and quite a massive one. Powerful build, constitution bonus that is just out there, fortification, natural armour, various environmental resistances, immunity to fear...

[The Glyphstone]

The idea was probably more that if you compared the normal marine to another character (say, a guardsman), the Marine is obviously a lot stronger, and a lot of what he has would be called a template in D&D, and quite a massive one. Powerful build, constitution bonus that is just out there, fortification, natural armour, various environmental resistances, immunity to fear...

Yeah, I know the logic behind it, but that was the mistake in comparing a normal guardsman to a D&D character - humans in the 40K universe would equate to 1HD NPCs, if that. D&D characters simply aren't human in their capabilities, whatever the 'Race' section of their character sheet says.

TLDR: D&D sucks at representing 40K.

[Sheep Overlord]

Out of curiosity, what would an Imperial Guard pinning list look like at, say, 1000 or 1500 points? I probably won't end up building one because it's so specialized but I might incorporate elements of it into my army.

Would a CCS or a Primaris Psyker be a better HQ? The Psyker has synergy with the Psyker Battle Squads I suppose but it can't give orders to mortars or ratlings. Speaking of, would Ratlings be an elites choice or would they be ignored in favor of more Psykers? I'm not 100% about how important Psykers are to this sort of list, for whatever reason I have trouble wrapping my mind around the way they influence a game. I'm sure it's something I'll pick up once I've played against them, but that may be a while from now.

I would assume that at least one troops choice goes into a power-blob to cover artillery. Does the PCS have a particular role or should it be left naked to give orders and nothing else? Two blobs is probably too much so the other choice would probably be vets.

Mortar squads and Griffons seem to have the same basic role of anti-light-infantry and pinning. The Griffon is a bit more expensive and takes up a Heavy Support slot but has armor which is nice. Is there a hard and fast rule about when to take one over the other?

A Medusa (two?) would cover AV I suppose; the Bastion Breacher shells certainly look to be worth the cost. I'm a bit leery of Basilisks personally due to the large minimum range but they are also an option. Is a Master of Ordinance worth bothering with in the CCS, or should you leave the ordinance to the ordinance batteries?

Lastly, how would you squadron your Heavy Support choices? I'm still new at this and I don't really get how the rules interact with ordinance batteries yet - that's mostly why I'm asking :) For example, a Griffon and a Medusa together would seem like a bad idea because they have different roles to fill. But, does the reroll provided to a Griffon (for scatter) also apply to anything the Griffon is squadroned with? That could provide a decent boost in accuracy. . .

Anyway, this is all mostly theoretical - I'm curious about how viable some of the less popular options are (I'll probably be back asking about Rough Riders and Sentinels in an infantry/outflanking list next week. . .) Thanks for letting me plunder your far more experienced minds :D

[userpay]

Well I wasn't really planning on using said homebrew in a low level game anyway. I've actually found something I could use for space marine armor, that being the magitech templar, but was curious as to if there was any homebrew specifically put out as a conversion or could be easily refluffed like the aforementioned magitech templar.

[Renegade Paladin]

If you want pure pinning, then psyker battle squads and sniper rifles/mortars all around. You'd want a company command squad, not a primaris psyker, because the command squad can take pinning weapons and give orders, and the psyker actually contributes nothing to pinning. You could also take storm troopers with the Behind Enemy Lines ability, but that only works the first time they fire, so if you want consistent pinning, Ratlings are better (and cheaper)

If you want a viable list with a pinning element, then you use ordnance barrage vehicles with a psyker battle squad or two in Chimeras. I'll pound out a couple real quick here, but keep in mind that I don't play these lists and can't give practical advice; I just know how Guard works.

1000 points:

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Company command squad - 90
-4 sniper rifles
-Camo cloaks

Psyker battle squad - 80
-2 additional psykers

Psyker battle squad - 80
-2 additional psykers

Ratling squad - 70
-4 additional ratlings

Infantry platoon - 285
-Platoon command squad
--2 sniper rifles, mortar team
-Infantry squad
--sniper rifle, mortar team
-Infantry squad
--sniper rifle, mortar team
-Infantry squad
--sniper rifle, mortar team
-Heavy weapons squad

Veteran squad - 90
-3 sniper rifles, mortar team

Veteran squad - 90
-3 sniper rifles, mortar team

Colossus siege mortar - 140

Griffon heavy mortar - 75

Major problem: Nothing in the list is over S6. Mech is king. You lose, barring your opponent being an all-infantry list. On the bright side, everything pins. If you're willing to overlook the Basilisk's high minimum barrage range (and remember that it doesn't have a no direct fire rule, so you can still shoot at things closer than that if you don't barrage), you could drop the Colossus, Griffon, and 35 points from somewhere (likely the command squad's camo cloaks, a ratling, and a sniper rifle from one of the blob squads, since they're less efficient on BS3) and get two Basilisks, which still pin things far away and can blast tanks better than a lascannon, barrage or no.

To expand to 1500, I'd keep the above and add 500 points of serious anti-armor, probably a lascannon blob and some tanks, possibly a Medusa with bastion breacher shells, and give the psykers Chimeras. It isn't more pinning (remember the Medusa is direct fire, and thus doesn't force pinning checks despite being part of an ordnance battery), but it shores up the major weakness of the list.

Edit:

Well I wasn't really planning on using said homebrew in a low level game anyway. I've actually found something I could use for space marine armor, that being the magitech templar, but was curious as to if there was any homebrew specifically put out as a conversion or could be easily refluffed like the aforementioned magitech templar.

Just to throw this out there, when my group insisted on running a BESM d20 campaign, I protested by building a Space Marine rather than their stupid anime nonsense. I just took some levels of Mecha Pilot and applied the mech rules to power armor instead of a giant robot, and proceeded to take all the handy traits that closely mimic a Space Marine's extra organ functions.

[userpay]

Edit:
Just to throw this out there, when my group insisted on running a BESM d20 campaign, I protested by building a Space Marine rather than their stupid anime nonsense. I just took some levels of Mecha Pilot and applied the mech rules to power armor instead of a giant robot, and proceeded to take all the handy traits that closely mimic a Space Marine's extra organ functions.

Hmm... Actually that does remind me that I've got the mech book for 2nd edition MnM.

[Squark]

Alright, I'm going to be picking up some more Necrons this Christmas, but I'm not sure what to do to expand my army.

My Collection
Destroyer Lord with Resurrection Orb (Speaking of which, how would you recommend I repaint the orb to make it look like it was a bunch of Mindshackle scarabs, since I don't plan on using Res Orbs with Destroyer Lords anymore?)
2 Necron Lords
50 Necron Warriors, plus a few partial ones (Partial bodies for spare bits)
9 Necron Immortals
10 Scarabs
6 Necron Destroyers and 1 Heavy Destroyer
Monolith

I don't know exactly how much I'm going to spend, but I know it isn't going to be a ton. Here are things I've been thinking about;
Necron Overlord
Cryptek (s)
1-2 boxes of Immortals
A C'tan

Does anyone have any recommendations as far as priority there?