Ogre in the Playground
Join Date: Feb 2009
Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium
Issues of symmetry aside, I don't want to drop the crafting element - as you said earlier, "quick, great crafting is their most interesting feature". It's a big part of what makes the engineer an engineer to me. Dropping it to 4 skill points a level, though, is more reasonable - after all, they're an Intelligence-based class, and they can take the hit. Eight skills maxed, let's see - Appraise, Craft (alchemy), Craft (trapmaking), Disable Device, Heal, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Open Lock, and Search, just as an example. That's a good selection, and forces the engineer to specialize somewhat.
Originally Posted by Kholai
It seems like you want a limited scope, non-magical "mage" type character - which is fine. I would honestly say bite the bullet and move him out of the Skilled Character section and into the mage section, drop skill points to 4 / level and drop The Knack. Leave him as a Trapfinder, and allow the Inventions to compete with - but not outclass - similar level spells in their types of effect.
Up the number of inventions per day up to
2 - -
3 - -
3 1 -
3 2 -
4 2 1
4 3 2
With the +1 invention / day making it 10 spells + Jury rig + Innovation. Some of those spells are basically permanent class features which offset the penalties, whilst he can still just about pull off a solid trapfinder role with 4+ Int.
I'll have a think about where I'd go in the other direction, see what I come out with.
500 gp. I guess I forgot to finish that.
Originally Posted by Zale
Fiendish Familiar appears to be cut off.
The black mage may replace a familiar with a ritual that takes 500
500g? Hours? Days?
Originally Posted by Eldest
Quick question or two; how many of those awesome things you listed were alchemical items, and thus availible to everyone, and what's to prevent the Engineer from making the items and giving them to others?
I think we've already figured out that that argument doesn't work, as it is the engineer's crafting speed and efficiency that make the use of alchemical items such a valuable technique.
Originally Posted by Kholai
Breaking it down:
Mad Alchemist allows Thunder Stones to be used as a readied action to give -2s to Attack rolls, skill checks and saves for 1 round, or disrupt spellcasting on an opposed skill check of Craft vs Concentration. It allows the Alchemist's Fire trick, for the net +2D6 fire damage. And it allows Tanglefoot Bags to made 5' squares of difficult terrain lasting ten minutes.
All skills and what they allow are obviously all him.
Auran Masks - Alchemical Item: Available for 50 GP each, DC 30 (hardish to acquire in E6).
Weapon Capsules - Alchemical Item.
Ghost Touch / Silvered - Alchemical Item.
Freeze Powder - Alchemical Item
Razor Ice Powder - Alchemical Item
Alchemist's Fire, Tanglefoot Bags, Thunderstones, Antitoxins - Alchemical Items.
Poison crafting - Essentially Alchemical Items, though Ranged Touch attacks with it being Engineer-only.
He needs to grab Least Dragonmark of Making and, if PF feats are allowed, Master Alchemist for the extra +4 to checks for making harder items with a take 10, which gives the chance at DC 40 Positoxins for anti-undead utility.
Crafting Traps is, due to the strange nature of trap creation, either something that anyone can pick up, or something all him.
Action Denial is Cannoneer. Smoke Bombs are essentially Smoke Sticks, so they're available to everyone anyway.
5D8 touch attacks are from Pocket Barrage. 2D8 15' cone attacks are Blunderbuss with Cannoneer's infinite ammo, and swift reload feature. Jury Rigging any bomb is Engineer only.
Pretty much everyone can get a Heavy Crossbow, but only he can pick an energy type to deal damage with it.
Climb Speed is Climbing Spurs for taking 10 +8 racial bonus to climb checks.
Curing wounds of specific energy types is alchemical, making water is alchemical, destroying metal with a touch attack ignoring hardness is alchemical, everlasting light sources are alchemical, a wide array of energy-type splash weapons are alchemical, negligible weight food is alchemical, nausea causing gas attacks are alchemical, lethal chemical attacks are still alchemical, and also poisons, as are lost ability score restoratives.
First part of the question: How much of those are available to other characters? This is down to DM fiat. Can you find an alchemist dealing with specific alchemical recipes in a certain town? Is that alchemist skilful enough to craft it?
Second part of the question: Even with the most permissive DM in the world, they are only available in at most quarter the quantity to all other characters, as the Engineer can make them in a seventh the time as anyone else, and at three quarters the cost that anyone else can make them at.
It's like an alchemical version of the Artificer, yes, they're available to everyone else. Sort of.
And yes, they definitely can give those things to other characters, and that's part of the advantage of the class.
If the party Pit Fighter drops all three Weapon Capsules (which are refillable with these alchemical doodads, and the triple applicator from memory is 475 GP) in a turn they full attack, swift full attack, and get an AoO full attack, then every hit that round they have 3D6 more damage purely thanks to the Engineer. Every time a member of the party uses the wineskin/frost-salts trick, it's because the Engineer allowed them to.
I'm sort of expecting the argument here that "as anyone can use them this means that the class isn't powerful or versatile at all, it's the items they're using". But I'll wait for such a claim to be made before I get into a discussion of that nature.
Last edited by Gnorman : 08-07-2012 at 04:04 PM.