[gkathellar]

Originally Posted by jaybird

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ter/archetypes

Well would you look at that.

I'm looking, and I see a class which is still deeply inadequate, both in terms of having interesting abilities and in terms of being an effective presence, in a system that still thinks melee can't have nice things. But you know what? Let's not just leave this point up in the air, we can go somewhere with this. Evidence is required.

Here are two particular insulting examples, the Mobile Fighter and Tactician Archetypes (insulting in the sense that they should be valid sort of character, but because this is PF, they aren't).

Spoiler

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Mobile Fighter Archetype

At 2nd level, a mobile fighter gains a +1 bonus on saving throws made against effects that cause him to become paralyzed, slowed, or entangled. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Oh, look, more numbers. Because that's what the fighter needed.

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Mobile Fighter Archetype

At 5th level, when a mobile fighter moves at least 5 feet prior to attacking, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.

So this is just the ability it replaced but only usable with this variant's crappy abilities, I guess?

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Mobile Fighter Archetype

At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full-attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

Oh, look, an ability so bad it may as well not even exist.

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Mobile Fighter Archetype

At 15th level, the mobile fighter’s speed increases by 10 feet. He can take 10 on Acrobatics checks even while distracted or threatened, and can take 20 on an Acrobatics check once per day for every five fighter levels he possesses.

... I don't even know how to respond to this. +10 move speed, take 10, and occasionally take 20. At level 15. What is this I don't even

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Mobile Fighter Archetype

At 20th level, a mobile fighter can make a full-attack action as a standard action. He may also use the Whirlwind Attack feat as a standard action.

Yes, well, things that should be standard to pretty much everybody being presented as capstones for a crappy variant class? That pretty much makes my point for me.

Spoiler

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Tactician Archetype

A tactician gains 4 skill points + a number of skill points equal to his Intelligence modifier at each level, instead of the normal 2 skill points + Intelligence modifier at each level. Furthermore, Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Linguistics (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis) are all class skills for the tactician.

This ability replaces the bonus fighter combat feat gained at 1st level.

This is actually pretty cool! Which is why it's setting us up for disappointment.

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Tactician Archetype

A tactician may choose Skill Focus or any teamwork feat, in addition to Combat Feats, as bonus feats.

So, the fighter's signature non-ability is slightly more versatile. Uh, okay. That's good I guess.

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Tactician Archetype

At 2nd level, a tactician gains a +1 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level).

Well, numbers, but at least they're somewhat unusual numbers. So that's at least an improvement. Still boring, though.

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Tactician Archetype

At 5th level, a tactician gains this ability as the cavalier class feature. He may use this ability once per day at 5th level, plus one additional time for every five levels after 5th (to a maximum of four times at 20th level). If the tactician also has cavalier levels, these levels stack for determining the number of uses per day, and he can take the better progression.

Another bonus feat, and an ability which lets you waste your standard action. Joy.

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Tactician Archetype

At 11th level, when a tactician uses the aid another special attack, he may affect one additional ally per point of Intelligence bonus. For each ally that a tactician aids, he can pick whether to grant that ally the +2 bonus on its next attack against the opponent or the +2 bonus to AC against the opponent’s next attack on that ally, and can grant different allies different bonuses.

Another waste of a standard action! Wooooooo.

Originally Posted by PFSRD, Tactician Archetype

At 15th level, as a swift action, a tactician can grant his Intelligence modifier as an insight bonus on the attack rolls made by a single ally within line of sight that can both see and hear the tactician. That ally gains the bonus until the end of the tactician’s next turn. The tactician can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier.

Yet another case of too little, too late.

These abilities are generally well-balanced against what the PF fighter already has, of course, and therein lies the problem. What the default fighter has is so generic that it has to be meaningless, and so whatever ACFs are supplied to it have to be insultingly bad by relation. The draw of this is that no, alternate class features are not enough to make a fighter class distinct, or interesting, because the fighter has to be distinct and interesting to start with.

And if the fighter has to be distinct and interesting to start with, than we get back to the basic problem — that "fighter" is an absurdly broad concept, one that is necessarily bad because it has no idea what it actually is (and neither does anyone writing it).