2011-01-18, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
I have three answers to the problem presented. One of them is absolute tripe (but fun!), one is elegant but completely unsupported by the fluff, and the third is a postulate extracted from what we know. In order:
Originally Posted by Xefas
1) There is no such thing as simultaneous. Events occur, one by one, albeit on an immensely small scale for time. A Primordial is nothing but their Charms, and so for a Primordial to exist, its Charms must exist. This means that there is a moment pre-Primordial wherein its Charms do not exist from a cosmological standpoint. How do we know this is a meaningful description? Solars, mostly, thanks to Primordial Principle Emulation. Say a hypothetical, Great Curse-free, time travelling Solar went all the way back to Time Not. He spends some time learning Primordial Principle Emulation...but it's like inventing the satellite dish when nothing's being broadcast. A moment afterwards...oh, let's say Adrian, the River of All Torments, bursts forth from non-existence. We know she exists; she is a being composed of Charms, and therefore her Charms are now viable options for PPE and our Solar buddy.
What this means for us is that the birth of a Primordial is a single instant--but nothing, as I said, is really simultaneous. Theoretically, a Primordial's existence DEMANDS (Primordial) Cosmic Principle. But learning that requires the purchase of the Primordial's First Excellency in addition to an Essence attribute of 10. We've got a Paradox--can't exist until Cosmic Principle (at least, in the sense of awakening as a full Primordial) and can't learn that without being, in some ways, a being with Attributes and other Charms.
So we have two possibilities: Yozi come into being fully formed, an utter paradox unto themselves OR a Yozi is, in some way, an ascended being who existed in some smaller, non-Primordial state of flux before burning their legend unto the stratas of reality. If they're fully formed...then they're story fiat already, as they lack causation. If they're ascended, even just from something we might call a Proto-mordial, perhaps a knot of Wyld Essence with crude shape and agency akin to a rudimentary raksha, then they could very well have developed Charms before reaching Cosmic Principle-status.
2) The first Green Sun Princes invented them; they've just reached quick saturation. Not terribly useful for the Primordials, but for their servants, highly covetable. This is a stupid answer, because Malfeas' expander is almost certainly the root of his "I have two Fetiches!" tree.
3) They're obsolete but foundational technology. Malfeas wanted two Fetiches, and when he reached into his cosmological principle and pulled out the first step in that, it was a mote expander. It's generally frowned upon for Charms to make earlier purchases obsolete, but it happens--especially when you're comparing an existence-altering E10 Permanent effect with an E2-3 Charm. If a Primordial came into existence as an E10 bearer of Cosmic Principle...then why even invent E2 Charms? You -can- start trees at higher Essence, but there is a heavy implication that the tree-structure of Charms is an inherent limitation that can't be circumvented: if you want this cool E10 thingy, it's going to have to build off lots of things...and even if your little subsoul motepool Charm is no longer 100% meaningful, it provides conceptual space and design space in which effects can expand and grow into something terrible. Additionally, we haven't seen anyone else's Cosmic Principle, and while all these Charms that define the Primordial condition will be similar across the board, I bet dollars to donuts that they're not identical. Malfeas likely has a larger mote pool than the Ebon Dragon. And I bet he can jump-start himself with upgrades to his obsolete mote-expander. Cythrea, for example, is supposed to have an embarrasing number of motes, but not much to spend it on--the freelancers have said that the act of Creating Creation was something on an order far beyond a single kilomote, and that Cythrea provided the raw energies necessary. This implies that her Cosmic Principle is different...or that one can retain mote-pool extenders...or that...
...well, the point is, we have no definite answers. But come to think of it, there is a fourth option.
4) Samsara did it. Saw Infernals. Wanted them to be playable.
Last edited by GryffonDurime; 2011-01-18 at 09:04 PM.