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Thread: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

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    Troll in the Playground

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    These are important concerns, and good things to hear. In part, I think a lot of the skepticism is probably due to my explaining it poorly. There's a lot of text in those first three posts, and sometimes important points are buried in unlikely places. I promise at that some undefined point in the future I'll go back and reorganize the presentation (again) to make the structure and function more obvious.

    To respond to several concerns, in order of ease of explanation:

    Proficiency with unarmed strikes: Needing "proficiency" with a body part is really quite silly. That's all I have to say about that.

    Does the monk need full base attack? I like numbers. Let's have some.

    Compare number of attacks:
    • Full base attack = 4 attacks per round by level 20, or 8 with full TWF
    • Medium base attack + Greater Flurry = 5 attacks per round by level 20, or 8 with full TWF

    Compare attack progressions:
    • Lvl20 warblade or fighter with Str 20, Dex 20, Wis 10
    • Normal: +25/+20/+15/+10
    • TWF: +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8
    • Lvl20 monk with Str 10, Dex 20, Wis 20
    • Normal: +25/+25/+25/+20/+15
    • TWF: +23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13

    Compare damage progressions:
    • Lvl20 warblade or fighter with Str 20, Dex 20, Wis 10, using two-handed sword (or longsword and shortsword)
    • Normal: 2d6+7 (x4) (avg. 56)
    • TWF: 1d8+5 (x4) and 1d6+2 (x4) (avg. 60)
    • Lvl20 monk with Str 10, Dex 20, Wis 20, using unarmed strikes
    • Normal 6d6+10 (x5) (avg. 105)
    • TWF 6d6+10 (x8) (avg. 198)
    Now, feats and gear and class features can change all this, but I think at a minimum these numbers should demonstrate that the monk suffers no disparity. Further, like a martial adept or duskblade, the monk retains most of his offensive capability when fighting on the move.

    What about grappling, tripping, and disarming?

    Did I mention I like numbers? Let's have some more.

    Same martial character, same monk; let's assume they both have Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm, since these feats just make sense for anyone who intends to do that stuff.
    • Martialist grapples: +29
    • Martialist trips: +9
    • Martialist disarms: +29 (plus mods for weapon)
    • Monk grapples: +29
    • Monk trips: +14
    • Monk disarms: +29 (plus mods for weapon)
    Again, feats, gear, and class features can change this up, but it looks to me as if the monk has rough parity here. He grapples just as well, trips a bit better, and probably disarms a bit worse, since other classes have access to better disarming weapons.

    Frankly, full base attack bonus is overhyped. It is an extra attack at -15 and a +5 bonus on attacks and a few combat maneuvers. I have not given the monk full base attack; I've given him something different, but just as good. Roll with it.

    If you play with it, you'll find that Empty Strike helps the monk in a lot of indirect ways. For example:

    The warblade can improve his combat effectiveness by buying up his Strength: +6 Strength costs 36k gold, and gives +3 to hit and either +1.5, +3, or +4.5 damage. He also gets +3 grapple, +3 trip, and +3 disarm.

    The monk can buy +4 Dex and +4 Wis for 32k, and receives +4 to hit, +4 damage, +4 grapple, +4 trip, and +4 disarm (he gets more for less). Plus, build synergies grant him +4 AC, +2 Init, +2 Ref save, and +2 Will save as well. And he's still got 4k in the bank.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-02-25 at 04:42 PM.
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