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Thread: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

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    jiriku's Avatar

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    Aug 2009

    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    A lengthy response! I'll try to address the salient points. I actually put rather a lot of thought into the new monk class features, so woot! I get to talk shop.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post's easier to skyrocket one score than both...
    I would contest this. Both the point-buy rules and the costs for stat-enhancing items force you to pay geometrically more for bigger numbers. Stacking restrictions make it harder to apply multiple buffs to a single stat than to apply multiple buffs to multiple stats. It's actually easier to buff multiple stats, both from an opportunity-cost perspective (cheaper items and better point buy ratios) and from a time investment perspective (less need to search multiple books looking for stuff that grants untyped stat boosts or boosts with obscure descriptors).

    [A multiple-stat-dependent character has more stats to defend]
    This is true, but a multiple-stat-dependent character is also harder to debilitate completely. He can get clobbered in one stat without getting totally hosed; this is the concept of distributed risk, or "don't put all your eggs in one basket". The monk will perform more reliably in the face of debuffing - he'll tend to be consistently debuffed a little bit, instead of being intermittently unaffected and intermittently made completely useless.

    Additionally, consider the total package. A monk has several built-in features that make him more difficult to target and affect with debuffs, such as Empty Strike (allowing you to switch between Strength and Dex if one gets badly depleted), Improved Evasion, a high touch AC, a mobile combat style (less likely to be the recipient of full attacks), and swift etherealness. I am cognizant of the fact that the monk has much to defend, and I provide him with a variety of defensive tools.

    A martial character would only need...Strength and Constitution, maybe Dexterity if you want to go with TWF), a Monk needs three stats to keep up (fortunately one of those is Dexterity, but you still need Wisdom and Constitution to keep up). What's more, you depend on two stats to be successful while a TWF character needs only one stat and the requisites for another.
    This analysis is close but I have a quibble. It's a small quibble. This is how I see it:
    • Stock warblade: +Str, +Con, +1/2 Int
    • Stock monk: +Dex, +1/2 Con, +Wis
    • Stock TWF warblade: +Str, +Dex, +Con, +1/2 Int
    • Stock TWF ranger: +Str, +Dex, +1/2 Con, +1/2 Wis
    • Stock TWF monk: +Dex, +1/2 Con, +Wis

    Why does the monk need less Con? He's a striker, like the ranger, not a front-liner. And as you can see, he's no more MAD than any other martial character.

    And even then, the idea is not to make the Monk "just good"; the idea is to make it better.
    Actually, the idea is not to make the monk "better"; the idea is to make it just good.

    remember how by having 32,000 GP you can add a +4 to both Dex and Wisdom? Certainly that means you add at least two points on Dexterity and Wisdom when leveling up; a Strength-dependent character needs only to add his bonuses to Strength, so it basically balances up until you bypass Epic
    Whoa there, tiger. I've shown that +4 Dex and +4 Wis on a monk is superior to +6 Str on a warblade while costing less. If you want to bring ability advancement through leveling into play, +2 Dex and +2 Wis from monk leveling is also superior to +4 Strength from warblade leveling. Plainly put, the monk gets a dramatically higher return from stat investment than other martial classes, and his MAD simply multiplies this benefit by making it dirt cheap to buy up his stats.

    Empty Strike, on that regard, introduces an artificial balance to the system which allows stacking two stats to compensate for the loss of BAB in order to use these abilities, which is my peeve....
    I prefer the term "innovative, refreshing new mechanic" over "artificial balance".

    I appreciate that you love you some full base attack, but the monk is extremely mechanically effective as-is. Perhaps you could set your peeve aside and consider approaching the class in a more flexible, open-minded manner. You might discover that Empty Strike and its supporting features create the opportunity for many new, enjoyable builds and combos.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-02-25 at 08:49 PM.
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