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Thread: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Indigo: Tempest and Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    These are some very interesting classes, and quite well done in general. That being said, I'm got some things to mention.

    First the stuff I like: It's nice to see two-weapon fighting get some use, definitely. I also like the surge point mechanic, since it simultaneously encourages you to make use of your arcane abilities and also get into combat. It lets you have at-will powers that are more powerful than a warlock's which require you to be in combat. I also like seeing illusion magic being used my a melee class, that's just cool.

    Arcane Fission is an excellent idea, and something that TWF can really make use of. That's just a great idea all around.
    Thank you!

    For starters, the biggest thing, I don't understand why these are two separate classes. They're incredibly similar, with the same supernatural ability list (and rate of acquisition) as well as many of the class features. It's also worth mentioning that it's a very bad idea to give 3/4 BAB to a class focused on two weapon fighting. As someone that's played several TWF characters in the past, I can tell you that hitting the target is much much harder because of the off-hand penalties. It's hard enough to set up a full attack in the first place to take advantage of it. I actually see no reason not to consolidate the two classes into one single class, the indigo. As a tricky magic warrior character there's really nothing wrong with giving them 6 skill points as well as full BAB. I mean, the ranger has that chassis, and nobody complains. Both classes are also a little thin on class features otherwise, and by folding the two together you could have more cool stuff for them to do.
    Having two similar classes is intentional. One fits the fighter archetype, the other fits the rogue one. I wanted to give people who are interested in this homebrew the option of fulfilling the skillmonkey role if the party requires it. While I certainly could merge the two, and they actually did start as a single class, I think having this option is a good thing.

    I agree that 3/4 BAB hurts a TWF, who needs all the attack bonus he can get to offset the penalty. This is generally why the rogue chassis (in particualr rogue and swordsage) can never do TWF'ing as good as the fighter (dervish, revenant blade, invisible blade). I tried to offset this combat penalty by giving the trickster Lowered Defenses, which balances out the lower BAB with an equal AC (and saves) penalty on your target, and is also a debuff that helps the entire party out. It's still not as good as full BAB but, in my opinion, that's a fair trade for being the skillmonkey + trapfinding + UMD role.

    The thin class features is also intentional. There were more class features originally, but I felt it just over-complicated things and made the class intimidating to even look at. I wanted the class abilities to be simple to understand, recycling as many useful abilities as I could from Core and some splatbooks, while having the invocations be the "new" stuff the reader has to digest. I wanted to table to look crisp and clear like my favorite classes: spellthief, swordsage, duskblade, beguiler, to name a few. I also made sure that there are no "dead levels." Any level without a class ability gains an invocation, so there's always something new.

    On the other hand, in practice, the leveling process may show that the class is indeed a little bland. It's got about as many toys as a psychic warrior but is a great deal behind ToB's versatility. I'm not sure yet. If necessary, I'll raise the number of invocations known.

    Speaking of which, I assume there are more invocations coming since there aren't even 15 of them as of the time of writing.
    Yeah, I'm still brainstorming more. I'll try to add a couple each day until the list is full enough.

    When you're writing more of them, you should think about some noncombat invocations, which would really help with the trickster feeling you're going for.
    This is a very good idea. I honestly don't think I could come up with 15+ unique combat invocations without starting to sound redundant. This would help fill out the classes and give them more utility.

    I'd also move away from explicitly using wording like "at the start of every encounter...". You can accomplish the same thing by saying "surge points fade five minutes after you acquire them", and you don't have legions of people arguing what constitutes an encounter like the factotum.
    Hmm, I actually wouldn't mind having legions of people arguing about my homebrew...

    You're right though. I'll change the wording to avoid confusion.

    There's seriously no reason not to just let them cast detect magic at will. The nebulous balancing of such a lackluster spell is hardly enough to justify making people track how many times they've used it.
    You're right. I just blindly copied it from the spellthief. I'll make it at will.

    You should think about having class features which are powered by surge points as well. This would let you have cool features earlier on, like the current capstone for the tempest. Being able to make a full attack as a standard action is amazing for this kind of character, and should be the sort of thing you can actually do in play. Nobody plays at level 20, so the ability is useless, as cool as it is. By having it lower and require, for example, three surge points to activate, you can turn it into a risk/reward question for the player where they have to gamble whether to go with a single attack for a surge point or a flurry of attacks which might make back the surge points they needed to power it or might end up costing them big.
    I'm not sure about this. I want the invocations to promote different ways to position yourself for a full attack. Indigo Jaunt, Bait n' Switch, and Indigo Charge are all creative and satisfying (I hope) methods of accomplishing this. I hope to introduce yet more ways to pull this off.

    Being able to full attack as a standard action so cut and dry like that kind of ruins the point I think, so I stuck it up there as a capstone. I may even rework it.

    Uncanny Agility is another example of a class feature which would make more sense to power off of surge points. Spending a surge point to take an extra swift or immediate action is way more useful than making people only able to use it once per "encounter".
    I like this. Will do.

    Same with Arcane Alacrity. By dropping these abilities in level and requiring surge points to activate, you would not only integrate the class features with the way the class works mechanically, you can easily justify combining the two classes as described above since you don't have to worry about it being overpowered. After all, there's only one pool of surge points, so it's okay to have lots of cool abilities that trigger off of them.
    Maybe. I agree it should be based on surge points and not limited by encounters. I'm a little wary of giving such a powerful ability as time stop as a free action earlier than level 20 though. I'll have to think about this.

    Impenetrable Illusion needs some clarification. The way it's written, it's absolutely impossible to ever see through your illusions. I think what you want is to stop people from magically seeing through them, which is cool. But make sure to mention that people can still see through them with Spot checks and interaction and so on. Because the wording is really bad right now.
    Hehe yeah, it really is. You got it though, I don't want people to see through the illusions via magic (aka True Seeing) but mundane means are fine. I'll try and reword it.

    The rate of acquisition of surge points is weird. Please make it predictable like (+1, +0, +1, +0...), (+1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +0...) instead of (+1, +0, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1). That's just counter-intuitive to change rates like that in the middle of the class. It seems like it was only written like that to fill dead levels. The correct solution is to write class features for the dead levels and stick with a predictable rate of gain for invocations.
    It's actually the 3/4 ratio, with a minor adjustment so that level 1 has an invocation instead of 0. Other than that first level it follows a strict pattern.

    Indigo flames describes fire covering your weapon, but just increases the regular damage. It should probably do extra fire damage.
    It's arcane energy so it's not fire damage. I could change the descriptive text to make it more clear though.

    There's no reason for deflection to have a cap on it. Having a +6 to AC at level 12 against a single attack is not a problem at all, nor is a +10 to AC at level 20.
    I'm wary of having no cap because, to my knowledge, this class would then have an easy method of boosting its AC higher than any other single class that I know of. I'll change it if I'm mistaken.

    Please alphabetize your invocations and have a list at the start with a description of each for reference. In addition, you might want to think about having different levels of invocations, even using the same divisions as a warlock's invocations if you write enough of them. That lets you write more interesting and relevant ones at higher levels (least, lesser, greater, dark).
    I'll alphabetize them, good call.

    I guess I could make divisions. I initially wanted to do away with categories for simplicity's sake and make every invocation scale with level but it hampers my ability to churn them out.

    Also, as a general rule you should aim for three possible options for every choice the character makes (that lets you have two characters of the same class with no overlapping abilities who aren't forced into any choice by default). That means you should be aiming for 45 different invocations. Again, separating them into different tiers will make it a lot easier to write them.
    I'll aim for that. With your suggestion of non-combat / utility invocations I can really start expanding.

    I'm also kind of really disappointed that you don't get any abilities to make standard illusions. Everything is focused relentlessly on combat applications, which is kind of a shame. Illusion magic is some of the coolest in the game to use outside of combat, and there's really nothing here to let you do that. Even something as mundane as silent image is awesome because there are so many applications for it.
    I'll start work on those utility invocations.

    You've got at least one instance of 'Blue Flame Tempest', presumably from an older version.
    Fixing!

    As I mentioned above, I love the idea and think it's got lots of possibilities. I hope my suggestions are helpful.

    Nice work!
    You've helped a great deal! I really appreciate the time you took to make these classes better. Thank you very much!



    I won't have all the changes done tonight, but I'll try to get as much as I can done tommorrow.


    EDIT: Initial number crunching shows that my initial surge costs were too high pre ~lvl 16. I lowered them accordingly. Playtesting is the only way to know for sure though.
    Last edited by Dralnu; 2011-05-21 at 02:45 AM.