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    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    We're talking past each other here. As I understood it, the point of putting a cap on attributes was to reduce the power of spellcasters to end an encounter in one spell. If they are casting spells which do damage, or debuffs, or buffs, then they are being team players because they do things which help the party but do not invalidate them. A polar ray (though I don't know why you would cast that spell) does damage, as does the barbarian, so they are working as a team. A Heightened Finger of Death ignores the barbarian's contribution and makes him feel useless and angry. So, let's start over: what is your design goal in capping attributes?
    To take things literally: The main reason to cap ability scores is so that wish/tomes/manuals can't increase ability scores without bound (now that they're actual increases rather than inherent bonuses).

    To answer the question you meant: Primary ability scores are now effectively capped 5 points earlier in order to weaken SAD builds and classes, and in particular casters, with the eventual goal that they should not make the rest of the party useless.

    1) It will encourage PC's to have lower high ability scores, but it doesn't follow that, for example, a Wizard who cannot get a +5 Tome of Int would buy a +5 Tome of Wis instead of Pearls of Power or staves or similar.
    It seems more likely that highest scores will be lower and low scores will be unaffected.
    The lowest and least important scores (e.g. WIS for a wizard) will indeed be unaffected. But the intermediate scores (DEX for a wizard, or WIS for a monk, or CON for anyone) will be increased.

    Why is this a design goal, anyway?
    Because SAD classes are too strong as things stand, and MAD classes too weak.

    2)+34 to hit is ok for attacking a Balor, with AC 35 (really 39 due to at-will Unholy Aura) means your primary will hit on a 5. But your secondary needs a 10, your third attack needs a 15, and forget about your fourth attack. The wyrm black dragon also has a 39 AC. Is hitting with about two attacks a round in melee really enough to stand toe to toe with a dragon's 46/41/41/41/41/41 attack routine?
    Probably not. That's where class features and feats (and of course the advantage of fighting 4 against 1) come in.

    Consider the Balor again. It swings at only 31/26/21/16 with a vorpal weapon and 30/25 with a flaming entangling whip. Hey, that whip calls for a Str check to resist it. The Balor has a 35 Str. Our 20th level fighter with ability caps cannot have more than 29 Str after a +6 item.
    So the fighter only has a 34% chance to win the check (of course, if he fails he can try to escape again; hopefully he's gotten Resist Fire from the wizard or cleric). Meanwhile, the rest of the party's attacking the Balor (he's only got one whip.)

    Also, the Balor needs to hit; with the right feat set (involving upcoming feats), that can be made highly unlikely (albeit at the cost of the fighter giving up his own to-hit.)

    Also, keep in mind that under "normal" rules he can only get 5 better than that, so it's not such a big difference. Balors are tough enemies, usually requiring tactics and teamwork to beat.

    tl;dr You can hit once, but iteratives are hindered, and one attack a round at high levels is pretty garbage.
    True, but Rage or feats will help quite a bit with that.

    3)What saves are based on secondary attributes?
    All of them except Reflex for rangers and rogues and Will for divine casters.

    You don't have to be a wizard to stun. Monks can do it, there's a Sudden Stunning property in DMG II which Cha-based melee characters like
    This is for Core. I.e. no DMG II.

    Clerics and Druids can probably stun thanks to so many spells to choose, some fighting style feats allow stunning, and the list goes on. Choose an affliction, and there are probably many ways to induce that in an opponent. Look at fear/intimidate optimization and you see the results of a condition track.
    That usually assumes resources from splatbooks.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-09-21 at 07:45 PM.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.