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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Hardly the fault of the Adeptus Terra either way - and a pretty poor reason for deciding to join in with the extermination/enslavement of the human race.
    His whole legion just stood there watching as Angrom's companions were butchered. What do you think that teached the primarch? First impressions are quite important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Except, as Outcast Dead lays out, the Emperor already knew.
    I've seen that claim here and there, but honestly, it simply doesn't make any sense. If the emperor knew Horus was a traitor, why did he leave him around still giving orders (like telling the furries to kill Magnus instead of capturing him)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    A Thousand Sons also portrays Magnus' idea as wanting to prove that sorcery can be useful (and his being a puppet for Tzeentch the whole time after their deal).
    Magnus also ignored Russ' pleas to surrender, and willingly accepted his punishment (in fact exacerbating the punishment by ignoring Russ, who was willing to simply bring him in to Terra unharmed [Prospero Burns]) as he believed he deserved it for breaking his father's wishes. He only took the out offered by Tzeentch when he couldn't bear seeing his sons slaughtered anymore.
    As already pointed out Russ had orders to kill from corrupted Horus, so I don't see how he could be asking for surrender. It doesn't say anything about that here, and it doesn't fit either with the rest of your quote. So Russ is willing to butcher the thousand sons to the last man, but Magnus gets the chance to come unharmed? Shouldn't this the time Magnus goes "Do what you want with me, but spare my subordinates!".

    It just doesn't make much sense that Magnus is in one moment "All my legion and world must die in bloody battle"(he could've just nuked his own planet, an IoM classic) and the next he goes "Save me Tzenceth I'll do whatever you want!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Thus he decides to destroy humanity. If Kor Phaeron and Erebus hadn't been going around worshipping the chaos gods Lorgar wouldn't have had them whispering in his ear (or if Lorgar told them to bugger off, or questioned the Emperor on this new information). Lorgar sided with the gods, not because he had some pathalogical desire to give worship, but because the gods told him they sought to meld humans with warp powers into single perfect beings. He saw this as the end result of worship, achieving a higher plain of existence.
    Well, last time I checked people never performed worship just for the sake of it. They worship because they believe it will bring them some sort of good/advantage. Lorgar believed worship was a powerful tool, and its quite ironic his works ended up being used to create the IoM's own religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Note that at no point does he question "hey, maybe there's a reason dad never told me about this?", or go and ask the Emperor why he lied.
    Last time I checked, the Emperor was never amused for being questioned in any kind of matter, neither was the kind of person to explain his actions. He's more the kind of "I'm gonna seal myself on my lab, not telling you what I'll be working in, and you're all forbidden from interrupting me".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    The plan was that if Horus won he'd end up exterminating humanity and starve the chaos gods of mankind's power, killing them permanently.
    Not a very good plan, since the chaos gods do feed on other races. Slanesh was spawned by the eldar and everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    The issue is that up until that point Horus has been shown to be super intelligent, cunning and wise - his fall really makes no sense in character as presented by the novels.
    It's adaption decay from the 20 odd years of the story. In the first version of the Heresy tale Horus was simply a man, the greatest general of humanity, who was straight up posessed by a warp entity.
    If HH series Horus was posessed his turn to evil, while boring, would make sense. As is he gets one wobbly vision after getting stabbed and decides to believe it over every other piece of evidence he has.

    I'd call that the writers having to force the plot to fit the background rather than any sinister foreshadowing of the future of the Imperium or incompetence on the Emperor's part. We are, after all, told explicitly that Horus is the greatest commander in the Galaxy - master of war, philosppher of tactics, leader of men.
    It is presented as an undeniable fact backed up by his litany of successes. Horus was put in charge because he was quite literally made to be the perfect commander. His fall, as written, is the weakest of any of the Primarchs and shows that it was quite early in the series when they'd not finalised a lot of the tone and feel of the series. Compare the suddenness of Horus' heel turn to Magnus', which only comes at the very end of A Thosand Sons and isn't really a turn at all, or to Lorgar's which is very nuanced and spread across several books.
    Indeed Horus's story hasn't aged very well. But since the most recent fluff seems to qualify as the most valid, he's now a Commander Incopentus
    by betraying his father for just a vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    If by 'fine job' you mean murdering everyone he feels is wrong, and terrorising the population into submission (pre-Emperor). Weren't you complaining about the Imperium doing that sort of thing in the 41st millenium?
    Unless he had his personal bomber and went doing strafing runs on the cities, he couldn't really rack up anywhere the same kill count of your average IoM planetary government. One of his main characteristics was actually being discret. People he doesn't like show up dead, but everybody else around didn't even notice he was then, instead of dying as colateral damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    He didn't institute any real societal or political changes, he just terrorised everyone until they behaved and then left - I'm hardly surprised the planet went back to the crapper.
    He left because the emperor ordered him to do so (and we all know how good an idea is disagreeing with the emperor). He couldn't have really changed anything before whitout trustworhy loyal followers. He could've maybe done something with his legion, but hey, gotta go conquer more planets for daddy or he'll be mad (trivia, the emperor quite disliked that Lorgar took his time to make sure the conquered populations were properly subjugated before moving on).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Also note that his solution was not to re-pacify the planet, but to blow it up. I guess that's the Imperium's fault for giving him weapons that powerful, right?
    You're forgeting the part where Curze had horrific visions of the future, and when he tried to talk about how he felt with the other primarchs, they all refused to help him sort out his head. Trillions of people in the IoM, not any kind of mental doctor or friendly voice to help him. Anyone suprised he ended up turning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    It's not a lobotomy, and some of the background material says the Emperor was going to censure the World Eaters (and Night Lords) for their ever mroe extreme actions, but they rebelled first.
    Indeed it says that, but usually you'll want to have a good talk with your commanders/sons after the first news of something being wrong with them, not when they have already rampaged trough countless planets. He left them run wild just too much time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Magnus I've already covered.
    You still haven't covered why Cruze blowing up his own homeworld and then going into a campaign of terrior is something that can be archived to take care of later, but Magnus doing one communication spell is reason for immediate repriesal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    I'm not saying it is - I'm saying it's worse and the perpetrators are culpable as they didn't think "hmm... maybe I should ask the Emperor, who obviously knows more about this stuff than he's saying, what he thinks of these visions/premenitions/ideas rather than just doing it anyway?"
    And again, the fluff points again and again that the Emperor wasn't really much for family discussions and/or mental support. He left quite clear that his orders were to be obeyed, never questioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    And it could've - Alpharius' plan was the same thing except everybody dies instead of everybody just forgetting about Chaos. Religions can be wiped out, as can history, by supressing it thorougly enough - it's one of the main themes of the Heresy books even!
    Funny since one of the main chaos themes is that Slanesh spawned from the eldar, and specially enjoys those alien souls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    You're arging about the culpability of the Imperium for the fall of the Primarchs using both the pre-and post Heresy governmental systems? I know time flows differently in the warp but come on, that's a real stretch.

    The Primarchs were not bound by the Adeptus Terra, which hadn't fully formed by the time the Heresy broke out, and were operating as military commanders. They conquered worlds and carried the banner of Terra to the stars, the administration of the worlds after they left completely independant of them (one of the things Lorgar got wrong).
    That last part isn't exactly true. The conquered planets were bound to pay tithes to Terra (just like 10.000 years after), the main basis of the "modern" IoM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    The Emperor ordered them to do and not do certain things. One common thing the traitors almost all have is that they did not do or did anyway these things.
    Russ received orders from the emperor to bring Magnus back alive, then Horus(which, by your words, the emperor already knew of his treachery, yet let him stay as warmaster) tells Russ to ignore the emperor's orders and kill Magnus. And Russ buys it. And when the dust settles he's considered an outstanding loyalist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    The faults of the 'modern' Imperium are mostly things the Emperor was against - his worship, superstition, dogma. In Outcast Dead an Astropath has visions of the 40k universe, and is so horrified by what he sees compared to waht they're working towards, he kills himself.

    So if the traitors hadn't turned, the Imperium would still be lead by the Emperor, had access to the webway, a complete STC system, have little need for Inquisitors, and be generally a pretty cool place to be.
    Funny, because one of the last things the emperor did before being turned in a candle corpse was creating the Inquisition, which is described as the most powerful organization in the Imperium. Inquisitors can requisition whole IG armies, planets and even the super-pimped GK. The emperor could've left them explicit orders on that regard "Hey, guys, make sure you keep the imperium atheist and develop science". Yet the Inquisition, one of the last wills of the emperor, goes on to become one of the most horrific parts of the IoM.

    Of course, if he knew the heresy was gonna happen all along, why didn't he do anything about it? Why did he send his legions into ambushes? Why did he kept Horus as warmaster instead of throwing him in a cell if he didn't felt like killing him? Somebody who's willing to let the galaxy burn just for the sake of one of his experiments can't really be a nice guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    In the case of Lorgar, lacking something is no reason to taking the absolute worst possible alternative. Wish you had a girlfriend? Have some heroin! Your boss told you off and made you do a job you don't like? Kill him and all your co-workers!
    When those things happen in real life it is a tradgedy, and the person involved is either seen as a victim of those who manipulated them or an insane monster.
    In real life, if that kind of people come asking for help, they usually receive it, or at least put under heavy supervision. Specially if they happen to hold important jobs. I highly doubt if the guys tasked with the nuke launching systems started to show drug addiction symptoms or started killing their co-workers, the high brass would just turn a blind eye on it and archive it to be supervised later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Magnus didn't need to warn the Emperor, he already knew. Furthermore Magnus acknowledged that he did was a terrible, unforgivable mistake and the Emperor was right all along.
    Right? Leting the IoM burn, ignoring all the primarchs going mad, creating the Inquisition, leting Horus deceive Russ, and that was being "right"? I tremble to imagine what would've hapened if the emperor was wrong.

    Or, you know "Russ, I aknowledge I've wronged, now let us combine our legions to fight the traitors attacking Terra!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Angron was angry his fellows were left to die - of course he's right to decide to worship the god of bloodshed and seek to murder ever living thing in the galaxy!
    That's what the emperor taught him, by leting his companions die and then ordering Angron to go in a killing spree across the galaxy out of nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    There of course existed Option C, (A being do as they're told, B being turn to evil) which none of them explored - talk to the Emperor about these things. But, I suppose that's the Imperium's fault too
    Again, the emperor was never much talkative. Even when he knew Horus was going to lead a mass betrayal of the IoM, he wasn't willing to seriously talk with anyone about it.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2011-12-10 at 04:51 PM.