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    Borgh's Avatar

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    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    I have to give you one thing, you do rack up the averae wordcount in this thread.
    Ok, lets do this *cracks knuckles*

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    His whole legion just stood there watching as Angrom's companions were butchered. What do you think that teached the primarch? First impressions are quite important.

    I've seen that claim here and there, but honestly, it simply doesn't make any sense. If the emperor knew Horus was a traitor, why did he leave him around still giving orders (like telling the furries to kill Magnus instead of capturing him)?
    I don't know much about this part, I'll leave it it to Lord Zorg the Wise.

    As already pointed out Russ had orders to kill from corrupted Horus, so I don't see how he could be asking for surrender. It doesn't say anything about that here, and it doesn't fit either with the rest of your quote. So Russ is willing to butcher the thousand sons to the last man, but Magnus gets the chance to come unharmed? Shouldn't this the time Magnus goes "Do what you want with me, but spare my subordinates!".
    Because russ was not stupid and psychotic. It is just common sense that if the enemy surrenders you don't have to thow away legionaries' lives.
    It just doesn't make much sense that Magnus is in one moment "All my legion and world must die in bloody battle"(he could've just nuked his own planet, an IoM classic) and the next he goes "Save me Tzenceth I'll do whatever you want!".
    Do you honestly think Magnus was so suicidal he wanted his guys to die? and why would he nuke is own planet? he loved that place. For the last bit, it was a case of good ol' "OH GODS WOLVES ARE KILLING EVERYONE, WHAT DO I DO NOW?"

    Well, last time I checked people never performed worship just for the sake of it. They worship because they believe it will bring them some sort of good/advantage. Lorgar believed worship was a powerful tool, and its quite ironic his works ended up being used to create the IoM's own religion.
    Theology will get me (and you, be careful please) banned, not responding here.

    Last time I checked, the Emperor was never amused for being questioned in any kind of matter, neither was the kind of person to explain his actions. He's more the kind of "I'm gonna seal myself on my lab, not telling you what I'll be working in, and you're all forbidden from interrupting me".
    Except these guys are the Primarchs. The third to twentythird most powerfull guys in the imperium with some of the most important jobs in the galaxy.

    Not a very good plan, since the chaos gods do feed on other races. Slaanesh was spawned by the eldar and everything.

    Indeed Horus's story hasn't aged very well. But since the most recent fluff seems to qualify as the most valid, he's now a Commander Incopentus
    by betraying his father for just a vision.
    But recent fluff does not invalidate older fluff that does not clash. and in the older fluff he is the best there ever was. Furthermore, he almost killed the emperor before kicking the bucket himself. Its like saying a boxer is terrible at boxing because he hurt a knuckle pulping your face.

    Unless he had his personal bomber and went doing strafing runs on the cities, he couldn't really rack up anywhere the same kill count of your average IoM planetary government. One of his main characteristics was actually being discret. People he doesn't like show up dead, but everybody else around didn't even notice he was then, instead of dying as colateral damage.
    He was discreet up to the point where he revealed himself as the killing dude and ruled as a king for a while.

    He left because the emperor ordered him to do so (and we all know how good an idea is disagreeing with the emperor). He couldn't have really changed anything before without trustworthy loyal followers. He could've maybe done something with his legion, but hey, gotta go conquer more planets for daddy or he'll be mad (trivia, the emperor quite disliked that Lorgar took his time to make sure the conquered populations were properly subjugated before moving on).
    Thats a strawman here. There is no connection between Conrad before empy and the empy telling him to leave.

    You're forgeting the part where Curze had horrific visions of the future, and when he tried to talk about how he felt with the other primarchs, they all refused to help him sort out his head. Trillions of people in the IoM, not any kind of mental doctor or friendly voice to help him. Anyone suprised he ended up turning?
    This one is to blame on the old fluff. Curze is stated as having no friends so the writers coudn't have him have friends.

    Indeed it says that, but usually you'll want to have a good talk with your commanders/sons after the first news of something being wrong with them, not when they have already rampaged trough countless planets. He left them run wild just too much time.
    rampaging though planets is what space marines do all the time, the World Eaters were just rather enthusiastic about it. Nothing wrong with them doing their job, the emperor just did not like how far they went with it.

    You still haven't covered why Cruze blowing up his own homeworld and then going into a campaign of terrior is something that can be archived to take care of later, but Magnus doing one communication spell is reason for immediate repriesal.
    magnus messed with the Emperors own pet project here, the one project which would have saved the imperium forever. its the difference between Curze knocking down a shed somewhere and magnus blowing up his dads home.
    And again, the fluff points again and again that the Emperor wasn't really much for family discussions and/or mental support. He left quite clear that his orders were to be obeyed, never questioned.
    Strawman again, be careful with those please, they really hurt what you say. The original point was that when they heard that burning a house down is fun they went ahead and tried it where they should have asked anyone if it might be a good idea first.

    Funny since one of the main chaos themes is that Slanesh spawned from the eldar, and specially enjoys those alien souls.
    To slaanesh, the eldar are kaviar, humanity is potato mash.

    That last part isn't exactly true. The conquered planets were bound to pay tithes to Terra (just like 10.000 years after), the main basis of the "modern" IoM.
    yes, but the whole tithes idea was not created until the whole campaign was well underway.

    Russ received orders from the emperor to bring Magnus back alive, then Horus(which, by your words, the emperor already knew of his treachery, yet let him stay as warmaster) tells Russ to ignore the emperor's orders and kill Magnus. And Russ buys it. And when the dust settles he's considered an outstanding loyalist.
    Russ did what the emperor said, with or without Horus' involvement. He went to prospero and told Magnus to surrender. Magnus told him to shove it under his tail and everything went downhill from there.

    Funny, because one of the last things the emperor did before being turned in a candle corpse was creating the Inquisition, which is described as the most powerful organization in the Imperium. Inquisitors can requisition whole IG armies, planets and even the super-pimped GK. The emperor could've left them explicit orders on that regard "Hey, guys, make sure you keep the imperium atheist and develop science". Yet the Inquisition, one of the last wills of the emperor, goes on to become one of the most horrific parts of the IoM.
    By that point, mister emperor knew he had failed and was just performing damage control.

    Of course, if he knew the heresy was gonna happen all along, why didn't he do anything about it? Why did he send his legions into ambushes? Why did he kept Horus as warmaster instead of throwing him in a cell if he didn't felt like killing him? Somebody who's willing to let the galaxy burn just for the sake of one of his experiments can't really be a nice guy.
    he did not know all along, just for a while. IIRC The people of the Eisenstein informed him.

    In real life, if that kind of people come asking for help, they usually receive it, or at least put under heavy supervision. Specially if they happen to hold important jobs. I highly doubt if the guys tasked with the nuke launching systems started to show drug addiction symptoms or started killing their co-workers, the high brass would just turn a blind eye on it and archive it to be supervised later.
    Lorgar picks his nose where the emperor just told him that picking your nose is impolite.
    Emperor tells Lorgar he should not pick his nose.
    Lorgar decides to do heroin and set a puppy on fire.

    He could, maybe, possibly, told his dad that he likes picking his nose and that since he is not doing it in company it shouldn't hurt. To which the emperor would have responded with a explanation why picking his nose will give him terrible nosebleeds.
    Right? Leting the IoM burn, ignoring all the primarchs going mad, creating the Inquisition, leting Horus deceive Russ, and that was being "right"? I tremble to imagine what would've hapened if the emperor was wrong.
    Right about " do not do sorcery, it is bad" not right about "everything, ever".

    That's what the emperor taught him, by leting his companions die and then ordering Angron to go in a killing spree across the galaxy out of nowhere.
    Warning, Zorg is being sarcastic here.

    Again, the emperor was never much talkative. Even when he knew Horus was going to lead a mass betrayl of the IoM, he wasn't willing to seriously talk with anyone about it.
    By the time he knew the whole thing was already snowballing out of control and you can be damn sure he tried to stop Horus (ever heard of this little event called the Dropsite Massacre? you should read about it)

    I do have to say, I'm starting to enjoy your posts. They offer a different view at what we see as canon. Usually this view is easily shot down but at least we think about it.
    Last edited by Borgh; 2011-12-10 at 05:41 PM.