Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
Oh, this is always a work in progress. We're using the monk right now in two current campaigns, and I'm actively working on a revision of it right now. Good point about the feat; I'll make an adjustment.

Since I'm here, let me solicit anyone who's using this monk right now for your experiences:

Gaming experience is showing that the monk's damage output is a bit on the high side when compared to members of other striker-type classes, and that other classes need higher levels of optimization to reach its damage output. Is this also your experience with it? I'm considering whether or not I should remove the benefit that grants Wisdom bonus to damage rolls.
Are you sure it's the Wisdom bonus only? Also, at what range does the Wisdom bonus begins being too much and at what moment stops being too much?

Playtesting should always be done at a much wider range than usual, as what may seem abusive at once may become a liability at higher levels. If you usually play between levels 1-6, then optimizing for Strength and Wisdom may seem like a lot (it's two full scores added, not like adding one and a half times your Strength to damage when wielding a two-handed weapon). I recall you mentioned a long time ago that it was easier to optimize two different scores than optimize one; I'd hate to say that backfired on you.

When I worked on the Warmage, I made a nice table using a bit of data compiled from the Monster Manual, which was the average/maximum HP totals, and then threw a table (with graph) figuring how the Warmage's Edge worked as usual and as I proposed. The way I proposed, on average, followed pretty closely the curve that the average amount of HP made. That was using a single Fireball, with its damage dice cranked up to 20 (as the other bit I suggested for Warmage Edge increases the damage dice cap), and using both the average result for Fireball damage dice and the maximum result (as if you had used Maximize Spell) alongside the bonus damage to figure that out. It always took 2 Fireballs to beat a single enemy, and since that's the average HP for each level (compared to CR), that means it was right on the spot. People insist it's too much, but always seek to change Warmage Edge to Charisma (to make it even SADder) and to nerf the damage potential a bit (because most people using the game tend to see the damage is pretty high), but I also have to see the table results AND what I also playtested.

From 'brewer to 'brewer, I'd recommend you do the same. If the problem is at low levels, it's probably because people are optimizing both scores, so it may seem a bit inflated (remember you also add Wis to attack rolls, so the chances of landing a hit is higher; that influences the actual damage done, and weighs the total damage usually higher, in comparison to other classes' damage output). If the problem is at high levels, I see another culprit: the huge amount of unarmed strike damage PLUS the amount of attacks you can land. Remember all the tricks you've added and those that already exist still remain in play; any time that you can pull off a full attack routine at higher levels, that's 4d6/6d6 plus two scores (which can be left at a reasonably high level) plus the bonus from your magical fists (up to a +5), and that's 5 hits. With Str, Wis, and enhancement bonuses to attack rolls, you might be hitting more than you think (and at least three hits will land), so you'll end up dealing much more damage than your average Rogue/Ninja/Spellthief by virtue of how weighed damage influences.

Compare, for example, to how a Rogue with Dust of Disappearance and chucking Alchemist's Fires/Frosts/Sparks or Acid fares against your Monk at each level. At low levels you'll see the results as expected, but at higher levels you may see quite the difference (because while the Monk is hitting normal AC, the rogue is hitting touch AC while flat-footed, so the total amount of AC will be definitely lower). The total amount of weighed damage will influence a lot, but the resources used by the Rogue are equally more. This is assuming equal degrees of optimization, so the Monk is quite probably sporting by that level Periapts of Wisdom and Gloves of Ogre/Belts of Giant Strength, so the damage output will be higher.

Try, if you want, to not add Wis to Str, but instead replace Str with Wis. Does that seem to resolve your problem? If it still doesn't, then you'll probably notice the problem is different.

I have the hunch the problem is somewhere else, but that may be my mind playing tricks on me. Perhaps you don't have to remove the Wisdom bonus to damage rolls, but rather shift it or apply it to a lesser degree; otherwise, someone who barely optimize might observe the Monk sucking just as much as it did before, and that's not your goal, isn't it? It's not the same to draw conclusions from players with an eye for optimization than to draw it from NPCs with elite arrays and less WBL than your players.