Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
And a twf build in any party that features a bard with optimized inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration could be dealing a comparable level of damage. And there are Charger builds that can not only match but exceed it at that level.

And that's not even getting into things that DMM clerics or Natural spell druids can and will do.
Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
I think the problem is that he can do it WITHOUT needing any help or optimisation.
Besides, what if the monk has a dragonfire bard? They make enough attacks for that to hurt.
Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
And the Druid and Cleric and Charger barbarian or Paladin all continue to laugh.
I actually laugh at the last proposal. Really, a charger Paladin?

jiriku's concern is essentially what Lix mentioned: he's worried that only a modicum of optimization is granting a huge load of damage. Your retort is that something heavily optimized for damage deals a whole lot more. It's a question of proportions and options.

You have to look at the question from the right proportion. jiriku's actual concern is that, with options expected to boost the Monk's power, the class deals a solid amount of damage. To put it in perspective, he's mentioning that only TWO feats, a specialized item for Monks, and items that are essential to ANY build (stat-boosting items) grant at 12th level the ability to deal a whole lot of damage. He actually agrees that it's not enough compared to other types, but that the ease of damage output worries him.

Now, look at the DFI Bard. The bard needs, at the very least, three feats (Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, plus Dragontouched to qualify; if you want the SPECIFIC type of damage, you have to choose a particular race OR get Draconic Heritage with a specific type of dragon, so that's a choice of race and a choice of feat), then get Inspirational Boost (one of your 1st level spells), THEN get Words of Creation (yet another feat). Add a Vest of Legends and you can see how you can grant somewhere around 6d6-10d6 points of energy damage per hit to everybody. Comparatively, the Bard needs 3-5 feats, a spell and perhaps an item to grant insane amounts of damage. That's more optimization than the Monk requires, as the Monk only needs three books (PHB, DMG and Tome of Battle) to the Bard's 5 (PHB, DMG II, Spell Compendium, Dragon Magic, Book of Exalted Deeds) and the amount of resources expended is likewise large (2 feats, 3 items versus 3-5 feats, 1 item, 1 spell, and potentially lock race and/or alignment).

Let's compare a DMM Cleric as well. A DMM Cleric needs three feats (Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell]), possibly Extra Turning, and a whole bunch of Nightsticks. To duplicate the monk's damage potential, it has to deal a minimum of 5 hits, all of them with a reasonable to-hit chance, and deal somewhere along the lines of 6d6+11 points of damage per hit. With Divine Power and Righteous Might persisted, a two-handed weapon enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon (extended, of course), and maybe one or two more things, you can duplicate the effect; however, you're subject to dispelling. Once again, it's a quite complex amount of steps to duplicate what the Monk can do in only a few steps, and do well (recall that the highest attack bonus is +20, a combination of the Monk's BAB plus the bonuses from Dexterity and Wisdom).

The one character that can easily surpass the Monk in preparation is the Natural Spell Druid, because it only needs one thing to optimize: Natural Spell. Sure, you can optimize a bit further (Venomfire + Fleshraker), but just choosing a bear and mauling everything with Lion's Charge and three attacks works pretty plausibly. If you were to optimize the Monk and the Druid for damage potential to their limits, the Druid would truly laugh at the Monk.

The Charger Paladin, on the other hand, is the complete opposite of the spectrum. To make a proper Paladin, you need at least three feats (Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge), a specific weapon (Lance), a specific ACF (Charging Smite), a specific weapon enhancement (Valorous), a special mount that's worthwhile, a spell (Rhino's Rush) and a way to deal that damage many times (Pouncing Charge? Travel Devotion?). Just a single charge is enough, but it sets you up as a one-trick pony that eventually loses steam. Setting a Charger Paladin requires QUITE a lot of heavy optimization, unlike the Monk, which is jiriku's concern in the first place.

Now, the whole deal with it is that the Monk's damage output with only a modicum of optimization is not overwhelming, but actually decent enough. With little optimization granting high returns, you can thus open to diversification, expanding some of your other options. If it works phenomenally well with one thing and still can pull off others pretty well, that sets it up right on Tier 3, which is his goal. Comparing Tier 1 options is just...well, misguiding, and comparing a low-op Tier 3 class with a high-op Tier 5 class sorta misses the point. With an equal degree of optimization, the Monk deals a reasonable amount of damage, but the Cleric and the Druid still win because of the breadth of options, whereas the Paladin will suffer because of their lack thereof. His concern is that he simply made things too easy; the proper answer is to address whether that concern is valid or not. Using the equivalent of hyperboles doesn't help to address that concern.