Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
I'm not sure why you're addressing this question to me. I've never said anything about manuevers being too similar to spells. My issue is that they mostly add numbers instead of letting you do something interesting.
Whoops, my bad. I saw Yora's post:
Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
Expertise seems to be a much better solution than Tome of Battle. ToB maneuvers always seemed like spells for martial characters.
... with your avatar right below it, and my brain formed a fallacious connection. Question is deferred to Yora!

Quote Originally Posted by Kerrin View Post
Also, I think you have it right that WotC may be approaching classes with the "wrong" mindset with regard to Martial = Simple and Magical = Complex.
They've said a few times that they plan to break out of this unfortunate correlation, but probably in modules rather than Core. Although based on the Warlock in a previous playtest packet, it seems that they still are clinging to the idea that a "simple" caster class and a "complex" caster class have to have wildly different fluff to separate them ... which could lead to a repeat of the whole Fighter vs. Warblade rivalry. ("The Warblade is just the official fixed variant of the Fighter!" "No it's not! The Warblade has totally different fluff than the Fighter!")

Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4
For the thief it's a bit harder, but maybe instead of applying to combat at all, expertise dice should be how the thieves "skill monkey" trait manifests itself. The thieves expertise dice canbe used to add to their skill rolls and ability checks in a given turn, or alternatively if they're "aiding another" they can spend those dice to aid someone else's skill or ability check.
What I'd really like to see for the Rogue's schtick is some kind of maneuvers that allow the Rogue to make a skill check as part of his combat actions, with pretty lofty DCs; if he succeeds, then he does awesome stuff (outfighting the Fighter for that one round), while if he fails, he is left with just boring old 1d8+4 (or whatever) damage for the round. So the Fighter is more consistent, the Rogue is more swingy, but their overall combat contributions are comparable.