Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
And yes, asigning levels to maneuvers would make them look a lot more like just another type of spell. Though that's not the only thing that makes ToB maneuver look like spells.


*absolute steel*

Two points. First, enhancement bonus ≠ magic. Enhancement bonus = common bonus type used to prevent stacking because WotC apparently doesn't like people moving fast.

Quote Originally Posted by Complete Adventurer, page 12
Fast Movement (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a scoutís gains a +10 foot enhancement bonus to her base land speed. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +20 feet.
Second, choice of formatting making something more magical is just silly. Maneuvers are formatted more like spells than, say, feats because they have more moving parts and double the flavor text, but they could easily be the other way around. Compare:

Absolute Steel [Stance]
You shift your weight to the back of your feet and hold your blade carefully forward at the ready. Your muscles twitch slightly as you prepare to dodge the next attack you face.
One Iron Heart feat, BAB +5
You gain a +10-foot enhancement bonus to your speed. If you move at least 10 feet during your turn, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn.
A fighter may select Absolute Steel as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Leap Attack
Tiger Claw (Boost)
Level: Fighter 2, warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

With a war cry, you leap into the air and lift your weapon high overhead. As you arc downward, your weight and momentum lend bonecrushing force to your attack.

Like a thunderbolt, you slam into your foe from above. You leap upon your enemy and drive him into the ground. The impact of your attack gives you extra force, allowing you to score a deadly hit.

To use this maneuver, you must charge an enemy while in the Power Attack stance. As part of this maneuver, you attempt a DC 10 Jump check. If this check succeeds, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this maneuver with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack. In addition, initiating this maneuver allows you to charge through difficult terrain as you jump over it.

If your Jump check fails, you do not multiply the Power Attack damage, and if you were charging over difficult terrain, you stop in the last square you occupied before reaching that difficult terrain. The maneuver is still considered expended.
In case you aren't familiar with ToB maneuvers, I ripped the flavor text and most of the wording for that Leap Attack "maneuver" (the real feat is here, for reference) right out of a 4th level Tiger Claw maneuver, Death From Above, which lets you jump over your opponent and deal +4d6 damage.

Not particularly magical, is it? Does the fact that Absolute Steel Stance is formatted like a feat and Leap Attack like a maneuver suddenly make you feel like Absolute Steel Stance is normal and nonmagical and Leap Attack is a "martial spell"?

And there are more direct examples than that:

Quote Originally Posted by SRD
Cleave [General]
Str 13, Power Attack.
If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Quote Originally Posted by Tome of Battle, p. 69
Iron Heart (Strike)
Level: Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: Two creatures
You swing your weapon in a broad, deadly arc, striking two foes with a single, mighty blow.
Through a combination of sheer power and unmatched talent, you make an attack that injures multiple opponents. As you initiate this strike, you make two melee attacks, each against a different foe that you threaten. Resolve each attack separately.
One feat lets you attack a second target you threaten when you drop the first one, one maneuver (from Iron Heart, which is basically "Fighter Bonus Feats: The Discipline") lets you attack a second target you threaten when you attack the first one. I suppose if you can claim that maneuvers are like spells because there's a maneuver and a spell that both grant a dodge bonus and increased speed, I can claim that maneuvers are like feats because there's a maneuver and a spell that both grant a second attack.


Quote Originally Posted by Draz74
What I'd really like to see for the Rogue's schtick is some kind of maneuvers that allow the Rogue to make a skill check as part of his combat actions, with pretty lofty DCs; if he succeeds, then he does awesome stuff (outfighting the Fighter for that one round), while if he fails, he is left with just boring old 1d8+4 (or whatever) damage for the round. So the Fighter is more consistent, the Rogue is more swingy, but their overall combat contributions are comparable.
I like that idea. What if the rogue doesn't get a normal expertise dice progression, but rather all of his maneuvers require a skill check, and succeeding grants you, say, 1 die plus 1 per 3 points by which you beat the DC? The dice would start at 1d4, and every even level the rogue chooses one attribute and increases the die size used with that attribute by one?

Sneak Attack might be a Dex + Bluff check against an enemy's AC, so a rogue who rolls an 18 against a target with AC 12 gets +3d4 damage, or +3d8 at 5th level if he chose to increase the die size of Dex-keyed maneuvers at both 2nd and 4th level. A trip attempt might have you roll Str + Sleight of Hand, and if you succeed by 3 points you send your target stumbling 2d4 feet before they fall prone. And so forth.

Combine that with someone's suggestion earlier in the thread to give the monk a per-encounter ki pool that he can use to roll expertise dice with a certain cap per round to differentiate the monk from the rogue and fighter, and that would make the fighter the regular, consistent combatant with his expertise dice allocated at will each round, the rogue the flashy, spiky combatant with his "expertise dice" determined by his skill checks each round, and the monk the impressive, methodical combatant with his expertise dice rationed out each encounter.