Sociopathy in Order of the Stick

[masamune1]

It's one thing to go through getting something and another to stay in it.

Psychopaths get into things like politics because of the power involved in it, the same reason they get into other positions of authority. But I think it's a totally other thing to say they have a genuine curiosity in the subject matter.

Bundy is a good example because he summarily stopped with a lot of his law classes after dumping his 'romantic' interest the second time. His subsequent schooling afterward prior to his capture (I think this was in Utah) also seemed to go nowhere and he stated having frustration with it.

That he kept on in the political job, I think, doesn't reflect an interest in politics as much as he saw that it was giving him advantages. But would he have initially pursued it had he never met the woman who dumped him for lack of ambition? I think he would have needed to have come from a social strata where that was expected (born to a rich or wealthy family). It's not that a psychopath isn't interested in advancement, it's that they're not interested in pursuits that won't yield them a lot of power. So if they don't come from a certain class, they're probably not going to strive for something that's really out of their comfort zone or requires hard work and concentration that they're not compelled into. So if you were born to a working class family with a working class education, why become a lawyer when you can become a cop or a prison guard?



What I've read pertained largely to narcissists, so by admission I'm including psychopaths by proxy. Also, what you're saying actually sort of fits what I'm trying to get at, because your initial examples, at least, involve instant gratification.

Petty crime, womanizing are only 'hobbies' in the barest sense. In terms of enjoying video games or movies, I'm not sure a psychopath would be likely to enjoy 'Terms of Endearment', although they might get a kick out of 'Rambo'. Although they'd pretend to like popular culture, they'd only really have an interest in the sex, the violence, and the comedy (especially comedy at the expense of a given character).

But hobbies like astronomy? Like writing? Like collecting stamps? Like anything that might not turn into a job and might require a fair amount of discipline prior to the reward? I'm not sure that's in the realm of a psychopath. Which is what makes Manson's case unusual, to me, because the extent to which he followed that hobby is a lot closer to a normal person -- although one could argue it was the performance (and the hangers-on it brought) he was interested in rather than the songwriting.




Firstly, much of his behavior comes through his privileged background. Is this necessarily all that distinct from people such as Lord Mountbatten? Tsar Nicholas II? Many members of the aristocracy? It seems strange to me to look at some people who were born to these levels of privilege and say how many of them were sociopaths for doing some of the things Goering did. When we look at Goering and how he mourned his wife... I dunno, I can't see Ted Bundy or Dahmer doing that. Feels like a totally separate category of human being. Plus I think there's something to be said for the world needing to label the Nazis as distinct from themselves.

To this end, the nature of German politics was by this time violent prior to not only Goering, but the Nazi party itself after WWI. The fate of Rose Luxembourg came at the hand of the Social Democrats, for instance. The existence of Stahlhelm for another, an organization totally independent from the Nazis. I think with Goering you might have to look at him in the context of his time, in which he might seem not so out of place. Bundy on the other hand, when the full extent of his life is seen, is VERY much out of place.

I think using Bundy and Manson as examples of typical psychopaths is a bit fallacious. Most psychopaths are not serial killers or cult leaders but outwardly act like normal people. I think getting into whether or not they have hobbies is not going to get us anyway- again, I have yet to read anything that says they don't have hobbies, and its hard to get a list of diagnosed psychopaths (or nearly impossible, since it isn't an officially recognised diagnosis) who are and are not violent criminals.

And I don't think that being interested in politics because of power means you are not interested in politics, and its not just the power that attracts intelligent psychopaths but the fact that they are good at it, since you can go far if you are a remorseless manipulator. They are more generally attracted to success- they can hold an interest if they have a talent for it and if it brings them rewards. But if they are bored and just want to pass the time or aren't going anywhere with their lives- yeah, they could write or do something similar- John Wayne Gacy painted without any expectation of profit (because he wasn't allowed to; it didn't bother him- the infamy probably helped, but still).

Rose Luxemburg wasn't killed by Social Democrats; the government brought in the far-right Friekorp militia to suppress an attempted Communist revolution, and the Friekorps took the opportunity to murder her off their own back. The killers were put on trial for this, and acquitted by a sympathetic right-wing court. Hermann Goering was actually diagnosed as a sociopath, and he does stand out from other members of his class in many ways. That he came from a certain background matters about as much as the crap childhoods of Bundy and Manson- it helped shape his behaviour, but it doesn't invalidate him being a sociopath.

Its not like his social class was devoid of such people just because it had a subculture of prejudice and elitism. That he doesn't perfectly fit the criteria because of things like seemingly loving his wives doesn't exclude him because few sociopaths perfectly fit the criteria anyway (Harold Shipman- who, by the way, came from a working class family and became a doctor through hard work and determination- also seemed to have a good, or at least stable marriage, and claimed his suicide was so that his wife could get a pension). Point is, just because a sociopath or a psychopath can keep a steady marriage or have a good career- in other words, if they tick everyone box but one or two-, does not mean they are not psychopathic.

Anyway, I think we're getting way way off topic here.