1. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
    Well. God damn. Give yourself a round of applause, this is stupendous.

    I showed this to people unfamiliar with the source material and they were able to follow the fluff and mechanics without needing to resort to your wiki links, so at the very least, yea, you hit presentation out of the park.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyhmas View Post
    I'm going to echo AuraTwilight on the fact that your presentation really sets the whole concept appart from the anime/manga vibe. I mean, I can easily imagine a character that channels the spirits of late hero/heroines in a tolkien-ish setting, for example, using these rules, wich, in my opinion, is a major point considering how many people are not very into that kind of eastern style (me included).
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyhmas View Post
    Now into the whole class (more like a splat book or supplement, really). I can't really PEACH it right now (huge wall of text), however, what caught my eye is the possibility of using two spirits at the same time. I mean, I couldn't find a way to do that but wouldn't that be an interesting concept for a PrC? Don't know, I get the feeling that a Lancer/Caster mix of abilities would make for such an amazing character that I just feel so much like doing it...don't know, maybe rules for Gestalting, in order to maintain balance?
    I may think about this, it sounds fun. I keep moving things around as I develop. Originally Berserker/Barbarian was a prestige class, but I eventually boiled the core of it down to a feat. A few of the ACFs were prestige classes as well. So, I'll play around a bit and see where it ends up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyhmas View Post
    Another thing, wich is just a minor issue, really, is the nomenclature you're using. The whole "include" thing...is that something from the source material or has some meaning behind it? I mean, it just really seems out of place to me. As I said, nothing major, really.
    I will answer your question with a video.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyhmas View Post
    Third, regarding your PrCs, ACFs and feats wich focus on a singular spirit class or a single specific spirit: don't you think it kinda defeats the point of the class? I mean, it has such an amazing amount of versatility! To an extent that picking a single spirit class (or a single spirit!) seems so much like a waste! I don't know, the abilities you give in the place of said versatility doesn't seem really worth it IMO.
    You trade versatility for power, in that you can get a stat build that supports a reduced spirit loadout, take empowered install, spirit affinity, spirit devotion, etc. And if you just want to be "melee fighter," "ranged fighter," or "nuker," you can do a lot worse than saber specialist, archer specialist, etc. with empowered install and various other feats. And at this point, there's enough versatility within classes to make an interesting loadout - Archer has a melee fighter, some casters don't need spells to fight, rider's fine in confined spaces, etc.

    But I did mention in my balance notes that most ACFs were just ways to build "tier 4 with style." Saber > Fighter, Rider > Paladin, Archer > Targeteer, but Generally, Servant Soul > Specialization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Bah, you give me too much credit, I'm only here for selfish purposes. Thanks though Lookin over the changes before tomorrow's game, not intending to go over all new spirits yet (we'll see if that lasts, heh). Sorry if the "paragraph" breaks are a little weird, I didn't want to break every single thought on it's own line or it'd look even worse.
    Well, if I broke anything you were especially attached to, just use the version from the old thread and tell your group that I "used to be cool."

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    The last paragraph in the Install section feels like it should be two with a line break between "upgrading from Includes" and "second noble phantasm." I'd put the upgrading line in right after the one that says you can't Install if the Include is unavailable since it's weird to have the Include phantasm round cost reminder in between them.
    Spoiler: words
    Show
    "When a servant soul installs a heroic spirit, she includes that servant’s weapon for free, gaining access to the include’s noble phantasm. The include, and the weapon, will last as long as the install. Because of this, a Servant Soul may not install a heroic spirit whose weapon she cannot include (due to having included it too recently), even if she has not yet installed it that day. However, a servant soul may upgrade an include to an install while in the middle of the include. If doing this, activating the install takes the normal amount of time, and the install will last for the number of rounds remaining in the include (even if her constitution increased), and doing this still counts as a use of install.

    Using the include’s noble phantasm in the install will reduce the duration by the specified number of rounds. In addition, a servant installing gains access to a new noble phantasm for each class. Using these noble phantasms will reduce the duration of the Install, just as the other noble phantasms do. As with other noble phantasms, if not enough rounds are left in the Install, the phantasm will conclude and terminate the install. Unless otherwise noted, all phantasms are full-round actions. Unless otherwise specified, any noble phantasm with a save DC uses the DC 10 + 1/2 the user’s class level + the user’s constitution modifier. Almost all noble phantasms are supernatural abilities."

    "A Servant Soul who changes her alignment by one step has half a chance to lose favor with a Heroic Spirits she’s bonded," Half a chance, heh. I don't think anyone would misunderstand but it's kinda funny. And Devoted Soul, wow that is some devotion. I suppose there are some spirits that you could effectively spam that hard. I've said before that I'd never give up so much versatility but it's fascinating how you could basically make your build "pretending to be this one epic guy's build."
    Way to pick on the language I haven't updated! All right, I'll give them a look later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Hassan's gauntlet charges have always been a bit confusing, I'm pretty sure it's meant to go 2->6->8, but the odd progression always makes me do a double-take. Delusional Hearbeat lost the "ranged" word from it's ranged touch attack. I've also wondered why he has Quick Draw: it doesn't change the swift action of activating the gauntlet to make a dagger, so I guess it's useful if you want to be tricky and have even more daggers? Medea's Rule Breaker is all but useless when not installed, pretty sure it's intentional but figured I'd check. Can't remember if I asked already. Still love all that gratuitous metamagic.
    Rule Breaker when not installed is useful only against mook casters and traps. The dagger itself can be handy, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I think the wording change on Mialee's Renewal has made it unusable do to the somewhat unclear definition of when round based durations actually start or end. As I understand it, the round you cast it counts as the first round (you can still move after casting and it's active while doing so), which means a 1 round duration ends at the start of your next turn. As far as I can tell the term "full round" would only apply to casting times, and a full round casting time concludes at the start of your next turn as well. I think what you're going for is that the round you activate isn't full, so it lasts until you get a full round, but I don't find that very intuitive.
    Would "end of her next turn" work better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Trying not to notice new spirits, but I saw Ice Darts on Tamamo's list. Might I suggest Snowball Swarm (SC) instead? She's already got ice rays on the first phantasm and this gives her a full set of AoEs. Heh, Cu is now referred to by shorthand in his own block. Also lost the extra "with his spear" on Deflect Arrows, must have had his SFX budget cut. Hmm, does Drake's lightning hit anyone between the two targets? Not sure if I asked that one before either.
    "while holding his spear" was an unnecessary clarification. if you're lancer and you're not holding the spear, you probably have a damn good reason and I don't want to gimp you for it. Also, all heroic spirits are now referred to only by name within their blocks, which is one of the nomenclature changes I made in the update. Before the core 7 were never named, and the others were named around 2-3 times in their rules text with the class taking over near the end. It was haphazard at best.

    Ice darts was included so that Tamamo gets 5 levels of attacks with different energy types and different attack profiles - Cone (and catching fire), series of ranged touch attacks, radius AoE (and control spell), Single target/Square trap (and control spell), and "just choose a bunch of dudes you don't like." Each one should have a different interaction with her phantasm buffing energy damage. Ice darts is actually the best one on her list against single opponents because she can deal 15D4+5*Int to one target with it. And Tamamo is built to go HAM on int.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    WHAT!? NOOOOO!!!! Ah, why'd you go and give me that preview and then get rid of the bull rhino? Probably because rhinos deal damage and warhorses comparatively don't and he's already got oodles of power. I see you went with standard action "concentration," and reduced the attack bonus, those should keep it down a bit at least. Not entirely sure if the soldiers remain after you stop concentrating: it was more explicit before but now only mentions the action to continue and that they disappear when the install ends. Could still use clarification regarding attacks (iterative y/n), at least for me (I've had to reverse engineer stats off that block style and I don't trust making assumptions about it). If we survive long enough and my DM continues letting me use the class with impunity I may get to try it out. Also noticed you've specified the animal companion level adjustments, 's good.
    The stat block is RAW and RAI absolute. It says one attack, that's what they get.

    The summons last until the end of the install, but they'll stop growing in power if you end the phantasm, even if you start another run of it later. Could be handy in a number of edge cases. Like if you only need a handful of guys that last a while, not an army of beasts that goes poof. Or if you're flying around depositing squads at various locations on the ground. (Side note: Iskander is the best argument for Raptoran Servant Souls. Flight on my summons, yes please. And the Deathless Type can't use the run action, but they can still charge.)

    And yes, Rider is supposed to be low-tier besides phantasms, so I eventually ditched the bull. The alternative was to keep it but cut summons to 1D4/Round, which seemed unsatisfying for an army. I did use your reactions in my rebalancing. So really, you killed the rhino.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Changes to Excalibur are quite clear, well done sir. Avalon on the other hand has that "full round" bit again. I can't say I'm 100% sure when an immediate action 1 round effect officially ends, but my group is currently using "at the end of your turn," even though this is in direct contradiction of what a I said above about 1 round durations ending at the start of your turn (another player has an immediate action defensive ability that should continue into his turn). The use of "full round" makes me wonder if it's trying to tie the limit to initiative counts instead of the usual rounds from the caster's perspective, turns. Would be nice if the Rules Compendium had anything to say on it but it wouldn't matter because the splatbooks all make their own assumptions. Note to self: never write anything with the word "rounds," replace all instances with "start/end of which turn." But I digress, as long as I know how you're intending it I can cope. In other news, I can't help but notice Gawain's Sun Blade there giving me another hard choice next level.
    The intention is one full initiative go-around, so basically the turn of the person when you first used it. I might edit the language. Also, again picking on the language I didn't really update, which I'll take as a compliment

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Hmm, Nero's Domus Aurea has removed the cap on the cumulative penalty, but no longer spirals as your save drops, and does not have a maximum duration. I'd consider the lack of spiraling a fair trade for lasting until your install ends, but having it now removed by a single successful save turns me way off.
    I did this mostly to simplify the language. The last one was an obnoxious paragraph of round-by-round changing penalties and I hated it. Anyway, if you can figure out a way to make someone not succeed saves on 20s, this one is fun for non-combat situations as well, so you can give people minus infinity to everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    And finally, you wrote a feat for mixing and matching weapons with installs, what are you trying to make me go do faustian pacts for feats or something? Dark Chaos shuffle, I can DCS my one racial bonus feat and I'm already chaotic so it's totally legit, I just need a few days. This goes basically all the way in glossing over any problems a generalist might have running out of installs, since you'll only have Caster without full BAB and you can use whatever weapon has a chance of beating DR or whatever. I would almost trade the True Believer feat that's powering my bogus armor (Millenial Chainmail) for this.
    This was a very, very last-minute addition, because the most recently released manga chapter includes it as a mechanic. I can't fall behind the source!