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Thread: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

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    DragoonWraith's Avatar

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    Apr 2009

    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Since you have some non-core feats, you might want to consider Able Learner from Races of Destiny. It lets you buy all skills as class skills. That means that with Human Paragon levels, the skills you take there will essentially be class skills forever. Take that instead of Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes and skip Loremaster. That'll save you goodly bit of skill points while still allowing you to keep the skills you really want (Bluff, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, UMD, etc) maxed out for only 1 skill point each.

    Also, it'd probably be pretty good if you lost a few redundant Enchantments. Scintilating Pattern is...meh. Mass Charm...charms are kinda hit/miss. You can't really use them in combat because of the inherant hostility. Thus, if you don't cast it before fighting actually breaks out, its not terribly useful. And if you don't get ALL of your foes, the ones who resist can help break their allies out. I dunno, I just don't really like charms. They just don't pack the punch that Dominate does.
    Well, the reason I'm bothering with Paragon and skills at all is in order to get Loremaster. Mostly because I want to not-level-as-Sorcerer as much. I wouldn't take the lost caster level from Paragon otherwise. Taking Able Learner would be good and would fit well flavor-wise, but would defeat the purpose of Adaptive Learning entirely, plus I am very much not full of feats.

    As for Scintillating Pattern and Mass Charm... neither are currently on my planned list. Scintillating Pattern became Irresistable Dance, Mass Charm... My 5th and 6th level spells got moved around a lot, actually. Any changes in that area are tricky because of qualifying for Archmage...

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Scintillating pattern seems like it still may be useful because it has no save, though the HD cap limits it a bit. So maybe, maybe not.
    The HD cap seems to make it not as worthwhile. Took Irresistable Dance, instead, like I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Charm person/monster can still be used during combat, they just get a +5 to their save... and only if you don't get it off early enough. The advantage of a mass spell over a single target one is that you'll at least charm some enemies. Against a mass of weak enemies your chance of affecting each will drop from around 75% to around 50% due to the +5, unless you can get it off out-of-combat (against a BBEG, that's ~25% to ~5%, and not such a great idea). Since the charmed creatures perceive your actions in the most favorable way possible, say that you're just trying to settle this peacefully and that you're only defending yourself against the charmed creatures' allies. Get your party to mix in some nonlethal damage with the lethal (you can still knock someone out even with only partial nonlethal) and you may even be able to get the charmed creatures to help with their own nonlethal. If that seems plausible but still not something the monster would normally do, it's an opposed charisma check to nudge him. And you're a sorcerer. Oh, and the circlet of persuasion applies. Combine this with bluff and/or diplomacy for sorting things out afterwards and you can really get somewhere.
    Interesting. Will consider it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    <quotes need to have text in between or they get removed>
    I love your Joker guide, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Depends on the metamagics you are getting

    I cannot suggest Silent Spell enough for you. I know my GM loves to toss things that cast Silence at me to get me to shut up. Even cast it area effect to bypass the whole will save thing. Sure, you are casting at +1 CL, but at least you can still cast.

    Also, you want to get those Charm spells off easier? Invisibility + Silent Spell. Your targets never even knew a spell had been cast at them.
    OK, Silent Spell I like the look of. More than Extend. Will take. Need to have Invisibility for that latter trick, but I want to get that in there somewhere.

    Is Still Spell also valuable? If I were to take Still/Silent/Eschew Materials, the only spell I wouldn't be able to cast no matter what would be Permanent Image. Tempting... except I may never need it. I have plenty of things without Material or Focal requirements, so probably wouldn't bother with Eschew. Teleport, Irresistable Dance, and Time Stop are non-somatic - Teleport's probably enough to get out of whatever situation has me not moving...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Heighten Spell simply lets you blow higher level slots for a higher DC on the resist. This is how you bag a BBEG with a Charm, even at higher levels.

    Extend Spell is probably not too useful for you, it only doubles the duration. Generally, that is not an issue.
    Sound reasonable. Heighten was specifically pointed out as "This is why Sorcerers don't need higher level versions of things"

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Reach Spell might be valuable to you if you want to cast all those touch spells at a range of 30'. Pretty handy to combo with Chain Spell for group-buffing
    I currently have only one spell I'd be trying to touch someone else with (Irresistable Dance), and I'd have Arcane Reach by that point. Even among buffs, it's only Mage Armor, Fly, and Teleport. Not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Speaking of Chain Spell, it's an extremely handy spell. Basically, you not only hit primary targets, you ALSO get secondary targets. So Charm Person + Chain Spell = Mass Charm Person. This can help you free up some useful spells known slots at higher levels. Oh, and Chain Spell + Greater Magic Weapon = millions of gold in savings on only getting +1 weapons of x, y, and z while swinging as +5 weapons of the above enhancements.
    Greater Magic Weapon is something I've been trying to sneak in there somewhere. Tricky. Anyway, Chain seems really cool, but as a non-Core Metamagic I need permission. Will look into that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Persist Spell is a bugger. On the one hand, a personal spell now has a duration of 24 hours. Like Mirror Image. On the other hand, +6 CL bites. Now, you can Thesis this to make it less painful, and there is another feat which reduces the cost of a specific metamagic feat by one (minimum of +1) that you can also apply to Persist to take some sting out as well. However, it is very potent.

    Now here is the cheeze that goes with Persist that you should probably consider avoiding: It also works with spells that have a fixed range. Like, say, a spell which you Reached for a fixed range of 30'. So you can persist a Reach Invisibility onto an ally, who will remain invisible until he attacks. With Thesis and the feat which specifically reduces the cost of a metamagic feat by +1 (minimum +1), you can actually Persist a Reach Greater Invisibility. Then Chain it. For the entire party being invisible for the whole day. Even after attacking. Yea, that's crack, and I wouldn't suggest doing it. However, normal uses of Persist is to make your rounds/level self-buffs last all day long, and is perfectly usable.
    This is interesting. Persist Haste, Persist Fly, Persist Arcane Sight, Persist Mage Armor. Might be worthwhile. But my DM very specifically stated that he will not allow Arcane Thesis to stack with any other Metamagic penalty-reducers. Even +5 CL means the above are three 8 spells and a 6 spell. That's half my level 8 spells. And I like my level 8 spells. Worse if it's +6 and those are level 9...

    So I want to have a discussion on my feats. I get 10 total (7 from levels, 1 from being Human, 1 each from Paragon and Loremaster), but four are burned getting PrCs (two each of Skill and Spell Focus). I'm also required to get 3 Metamagics (or Crafting feats) before Loremaster - which means Quicken, which I cannot use until after Rapid Metamagic, cannot be one of the three. Assuming I do take Rapid Metamagic and Quicken, I get 1 more Feat - at 18. Is Quicken the right call here, considering how few Feats I have available? If not, is Rapid Metamagic still worth it? Which three Metamagic feats (other than Quicken) are best? I'm currently thinking Heighten, Empower, and Silent. And what's best for my final Feat?
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-17 at 08:13 PM.