Ooh, interest! Thank you very much!
@Falconknight, PId6, & Dice– Yeah, Close Combat Shot is not epic. Having ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity is, quite simply, stupid. It's a bad mechanic that does nothing but frustrate archers. It's not like the AoO idea is great to begin with. An optional ability to negate a penalty you shouldn't have isn't overpowered, especially when it means you have to forfeit other useful abilities. Thanks for the fielding the comments, PId6 and Dice.
@Ridly– Bonus luck rerolls are a mechanic introduced in Complete Scoundrel. By themselves, they do nothing. You gain various outlets for them with Luck feats, and the destined arrow class feature provides you with another.
@Thrawn– AWESOME! Thank you for all this commentary! Let's see what I can do to put your mind at ease.
The limit is actually a very good idea, and prevents front-end loading. I'll put that in. It's actually something I noticed while I was statting up a sagittarius the other day for a PbP, that at 1st level it was too good of a spellcaster.Concurrence should be limited to class level times per day. This way you can only use it once at 1st level, twice at 2nd level..etc. Otherwise a high wisdom character will be a better spellcaster than the wizard at low level. Also, the saving throw DC is way too high. It should be based off the level of the spell rather than 1/2 the class level. You might also want to restrict what spell lists this accesses.
As for the save DC, though, I'm thinking it stays where it is. As it is it follows the rules for a supernatural ability, which it certainly is. It just happens to be a supernatural ability that grants spell-like abilities. Mechanics aside, the only way that concurrences will be useful at high levels is with utility spells. And those are the sorts of things that need a fairly high DC to succeed. A sagittarius doesn't have the breadth of options to augment caster level and save DCs and everything else that a normal spellcaster does. I think it's fair.
Em... I'm not so sure. Elusive Target already has a limit of per class level. This feature allows for a high Wisdom sagittarius to be viable from the start, even if they have poor Dex. I'll think about it.Serendipitous Shot should be limited to up to class level to prevent front loading. Right now taking 2 levels in this class is....really really really good.
... If you're saying it's stronger than a fighter, I should certainly hope so. The sad truth is that archery in 3.5 is ridiculously feat-intensive. Look at that bonus feat list. Look how many are neccessary to playing a strong archer. Look at the chains and enormous lists of prerequisites. Quite frankly, a sagittarius would have to be an idiot to actually take a luck feat as a bonus feat, because they need those archery feats. That's the real reason there are all those luck rerolls. It's so you can actually use your destined arrow class feature, since you won't be getting any actual luck feats until very high levels when you've run out of archery feats to take.- Bonus Feats: Personally, I love bonus feats, and I like bonus feats from a list that's actually useful to the class (as they are in this situation). In this class though, you have a whole lot of them. Especially with the luck rerolls that are provided. Normally a feat is worth just over 2 luck rerolls. This class is throwing out 7 bonus feats and 10 luck rerolls. This alone is coming somewhat close to what a fighter gets!
There's a reason the ranger is underpowered. It's because it relies on the two least potent forms of combat in the game. Two-weapon fighting aside (it has its own enormous list of problems) archery is weak. It doesn't deal much damage. That's why the scout is pretty much the only ranged character worth a damn, because you get skirmish damage that you can apply to your arrows.- Marksman abilities: Cool and flavorful. I recomend you change the lower level of called shot to not be precision damage and only a 1:1 ratio. This makes the class not such a huge damage powerhouse, while also not being quite so screwed if it runs into undead with DR/anything other than piercing.
Let's assume you rolled moderately, and have a 10 in Strength, meaning composite bows are not an option. Fairly realistic, I think. At 1st level, your arrows with a longbow deal 1d8 damage. At 20th level, your arrows with a longbow deal 1d8 damage. Sure, you can try to fire more of them and you have feats that make them more precise and all that, but they still deal 1d8 damage. To be a successful archer, you need to find a way to deal additional damage. And lots of it, if you're going to fill the role that archers fill in common imagination. That's why called shot is in there as it is. It's because there is no dual-wielding power attacking shock trooper feats for archery. It's because you NEED extra damage to stay in the game. This feature deals the same damage as a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, and that's good enough for me.
As for precision-based damage, I can't imagine removing that restriction. It just wouldn't make sense otherwise. A power attack can deal extra damage to an undead because you're hitting really really hard. And archers can deal extra damage with such a technique, with composite bows. A called shot is predicated on the assumption of striking a vulnerable area, just like a sneak attack. It would be nonsensical to try and explain why I can aim an arrow at a vulnerable piece of an ooze's anatomy () when a rogue can't.
This rambling also gives me an idea for a new marksman technique involving composite bows. Thanks for that.
Pas vrai. There are three key reasons to invest in both Dexterity and Wisdom for this class. Elusive Target and Serendipitous Shot are the first two. These two class features add your Wisdom modifier to your existing stat. But that's just it: they add it. Dexterity is still important, especially if the sagittarius wants to be better than most archers. Thirdly, most every archery feat has a Dexterity requirement. If you want to be able to pull off some crazy stuff later on, you'd better have a good Dexterity.Alright, on to general analysis of the class: There is no reason to be dex based rather than Wis based. You might have been aiming for that, but it was unexpected.
NOW. That being said, I think you are indeed right. In my haste to ensure that Wisdom would be useful to an archer, I was perhaps... overzealous in my undertaking of this goal. I propose the following changes.
• Serendipitous Shot will be per class level. I've been thinking about it as I've been writing this, and I think you're right. I need to prevent dips into this class by every archer on the planet.
[SIDE NOTE– I hate it when this happens. I always PEACH things fairly harshly and rag on people for clinging to bad ideas when they are obviously bad, and always smugly tell myself that I would never do such a thing. And here I've caught myself doing exactly that. There's a lesson in there somewhere. I guess everybody just looks at their own work with rose-tinted lenses. It's tough to be objective about some things.]
• Serendipitous Shot and Elusive Target will only provide their bonuses (boni?) up to a maximum of your Dexterity modifier. These people are incredibly lucky, but true luck makes itself. They need to be skilled archers as well.
• Many of the marksman techniques will be slightly altered to benefit a high Dexterity score.
• Concurrences will be nerfed some. (see the next bit)
I think that should do the trick, eh?
Well... They'll have exactly 4 spells of up to 6th level. Each of which can be used 8 times a day. That's hardly "better offensive casters than full casters". Let's be serious here. It's like the difference between a curiously autistic bard and a wizard. That being said, as I mentioned before, Dex will be more important to the new sagittarius, which limits the abusability of this somewhat.The consequence is that these guys will be better offensive casters than full casters! With a +8 Wisdom bonus, once you hit level 17 you'll be getting 32 spells that have a saving throw DC equivalent to a 9th level spell!
Like the SLA metamagic from CArc? I guess it would work, but I don't imagine it would be any worse than other SLAs. After all, you're still paying for the feat (and for a sagittarius, it's not like you have many to toss around on things like that).Edit: I'm also concerned about metamagic on those spell-like abilites, but I'll address that when I've looked at them more closely.
That is very awesome. And will definitely be included.Double Edit: I was also thinking of a marksman ability that first lets you reduce the penalty of some wind conditions and treat your arrows as thrown weapons in regards to a wind wall. The second level would let you ignore wind conditions and the wind wall spell.
I guess. Any ideas? I try to avoid stuff like that, because what if the DM suddenly decides to run a campaign in the World of Eternal Night™? I don't want to suddenly have sagittarii be a better class than otherwise. Similarly, I don't want to weaken the class if the DM decides the PCs will never have a nocturnal adventure.It would also be neat if there was some sort of an ability that was triggered at night. The whole star thing.
Thanks you once more for that INCREDIBLE feedback, and I'm going to make the changes I've ruminated on right away!
BUT FIRST! An idea that has been Tumbling around in my head for the past few days. The symmetrical part of me dislikes how you get 2 normal techniques and 3 advanced techniques. WHAT IF you got 2 normal, 2 advanced, and then one last expert technique as the last one? I'd need a third level version of each of the techniques, but I'd also be rearranging things to distribute more evenly across three tiers, so it's not as overpowered as it sounds. Thoughts?