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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gremlin View Post
    Yeah, but Alphantica is currently attacking the UNA. Or at least planning an attack.
    And the Sovice shouldn't kill The Shades, I agree with that. I was talking about the Shades' ARMIES.
    The shades armies are just mooks. Terribly tough and extremely quickly replicating mooks, but mooks nonetheless. The shades themselves are a whole different level. Off the scale actually.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Threeshades View Post
    The shades armies are just mooks. Terribly tough and extremely quickly replicating mooks, but mooks nonetheless. The shades themselves are a whole different level. Off the scale actually.
    I think that the Shades are likely to turn into Sealed Evil's in a Can. The Can in question will be forgotten so we can move onto FI, but maybe, when we get board of that, the Can can be opened.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Threeshades View Post
    The shades armies are just mooks. Terribly tough and extremely quickly replicating mooks, but mooks nonetheless. The shades themselves are a whole different level. Off the scale actually.
    I know. But Lying&co. are gonna fight the Shades. Meanwhile, the UNA will fight--and win--against the Shades' armies. At least, that's my understanding.
    /\No. That will ruin everything! And anyways, it is time for teh Shades to be destroyed, once and for all. That is what the entire plot of FFF 1 was about!!! The Shades! And FFF 2: FI will be about the UNA.
    Last edited by The Gremlin; 2009-01-03 at 08:36 PM.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Okay let's sum this up: NO-one absolutely no one, despite technology, numbers, organization, magic or other superpowers is able to even hurt the shades, except for salmon and leroy.
    If the shades are not going to be destroyed, they will destroy everything else (at a blinding pace, including all sovice that try to come near them). And there wouldnt be any future that salmon could have come back from.
    That is why Salmon has to kill the Shades. They're number one priority for the sake of anything that is alive, undead and/or animated in any other way, unless its some form of demon. Though most of these will be gone too.

    So Salmon will fight the shades and beat them, the UNA subsequently taking over the world founding the prerequisites for FI.

    That way we get salmon's future (which then probably come after FI) and FI to match somewhat, and the FFF plot closes like a plot should.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    I think that the Shades are likely to turn into Sealed Evil's in a Can. The Can in question will be forgotten so we can move onto FI, but maybe, when we get board of that, the Can can be opened.
    That'd be one hell of a can.

    And no.
    Last edited by Threeshades; 2009-01-03 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Alright, if the Shades can only be defeated by Salmon, that begs the question: how do the UNA win in Salmon's dark future? With Salmon removed from the timeline, the Shades should not have been defeated.

    There are a few solutions to this:
    a) The Shades can be beat without Salmon
    b) The dark future is one in which the Shades win.
    c) Time in Avbaroy is a stable time loop. Salmon goes back in time, defeats the Shades but fails to defeat the UNA, creating the dark future.

    Problems with the solutions...
    a) Already contradicted by word of God from Threeshades
    b) Contradicted by the fact that Salmon saw Ins in the future. It is unlikely that Threeshades would have allowed him to live.
    c) FI truly becomes hopeless, as the future is unchangeable and Avbaroy is doomed to UNA rule.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Okay, Salmon kills the shades (Potentioally being godmodded into doing so if he goes on Hiatus again), then the UNoA takes credit for it.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Okay, Salmon kills the shades (Potentioally being godmodded into doing so if he goes on Hiatus again), then the UNoA takes credit for it.
    that would work for me.



    Okay now, what DO we know of the future salmon was in?
    Last edited by Threeshades; 2009-01-03 at 08:43 PM.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Another question: Why are the Shades so powerful? We know that the Shades were promised to Sildyu's descendants by Vilkarlig, but Vilkarlig is no where near that powerful, as evidenced by his capture by the Sovice.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Another question: Why are the Shades so powerful? We know that the Shades were promised to Sildyu's descendants by Vilkarlig, but Vilkarlig is no where near that powerful, as evidenced by his capture by the Sovice.
    A creation cannot be more intelligent than it's creator. It can however always be more powerful.

    The shades grew out of hand as soon as they were created, like a zombie-virus experiment. Their bond to threeshades' soul is the only weakness, and it only is present, if threeshades' soul is too.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Another question: Why are the Shades so powerful? We know that the Shades were promised to Sildyu's descendants by Vilkarlig, but Vilkarlig is no where near that powerful, as evidenced by his capture by the Sovice.
    If anybody asks, we retcon it and say they ate some Megartifact of doom or somthing, we just didn't see it on-camera as it were.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Alright, if the Shades can only be defeated by Salmon, that begs the question: how do the UNA win in Salmon's dark future? With Salmon removed from the timeline, the Shades should not have been defeated.

    *doom and gloom*
    I already said once; Parallel universe. A bit like the ending of this star trek episode (the 5th paragraph in synopsis)
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Threeshades View Post
    A creation cannot be more intelligent than it's creator. It can however always be more powerful.

    The shades grew out of hand as soon as they were created, like a zombie-virus experiment. Their bond to threeshades' soul is the only weakness, and it only is present, if threeshades' soul is too.
    It still seems a little far-fetched to me.

    The problem I have with the Shades, and many ABR chraracters, is that they seem to somehow be more ass-kicking that Cthulhu, Chuck Norris, the Emperor of Mankind, and Squirrel Girl combined. Their powers are so far over 9000 that its not even funny anymore, just annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by memnarch View Post
    I already said once; Parallel universe. A bit like the ending of this star trek episode (the 5th paragraph in synopsis)
    But what creates a new alternate universe? If we accept that it is time travel, the future that Salmon arrives in is still one in which he has been removed early from the timeline. Without him the Shades should have been unstoppable and the future should have been one with Shade rule.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2009-01-03 at 08:57 PM.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    A fishy sort of example. The reason you can't have a live plant in a goldfish tank is because either the goldfish eat the plant to nothing or the plant grows too fast and takes over the tank.

    The shades are the like the plant over-growing the tank, it starts small but gains lots of power (growing); Salmon and Leroy are the human removing the plant from the tank to keep the fish alive (destroying the shades).


    @/\; the universe Future Salmon is from could be one where the bad sovice have beaten the Resistance, so Salmon goes back in time (to the universe we use) to try to prevent the future he came from from happening. Thing is, he doesn't know that they're parallel universes.
    Last edited by memnarch; 2009-01-03 at 09:02 PM.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    It still seems a little far-fetched to me.

    The problem I have with the Shades, and many ABR chraracters, is that they seem to somehow be more ass-kicking that Cthulhu, Chuck Norris, the Emperor of Mankind, and Squirrel Girl combined. Their powers are so far over 9000 that its not even funny anymore, just annoying.
    They wouldnt need to be if we didnt have things like the sovice floating around.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by memnarch View Post
    A fishy sort of example. The reason you can't have a live plant in a goldfish tank is because either the goldfish eat the plant to nothing or the plant grows too fast and takes over the tank.

    The shades are the like the plant over-growing the tank, it starts small but gains lots of power (growing); Salmon and Leroy are the human removing the plant from the tank to keep the fish alive (destroying the shades).
    Yeah, but its not as if a specific human has to remove the plant. Bob could remove the plant, but so could Laura or Chuck or Amy or Dan or Morgan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Threeshades View Post
    They wouldnt need to be if we didnt have things like the sovice floating around.
    Or Q or Randomizer or Igon freakin' Minoblendy.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2009-01-03 at 09:03 PM.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Can't Salmon and leeroy go slaughter the white shades while the other people and me hold the red+purple ones at the entrance? (then have them come help us kill the rest.)
    ____

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Yeah, but its not as if a specific human has to remove the plant. Bob could remove the plant, but so could Laura or Chuck or Amy or Dan or Morgan.
    So it's not a complete transplant example/metaphor.

    In the example, it could be that salmon+leroy are the responsible adult (single parent) and the rest of the family are screaming kids (the rest of the cast).
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by memnarch View Post
    So it's not a complete transplant example/metaphor.

    In the example, it could be that salmon+leroy are the responsible adult (single parent) and the rest of the family are screaming kids (the rest of the cast).
    Yeah but the screaming kids could take out the plant too, they just choose not to, and its not as if the plant was ever more powerful than the kids.

    Face it, the metaphor just doesn't work.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonAngel View Post
    Can't Salmon and leeroy go slaughter the white shades while the other people and me hold the red+purple ones at the entrance? (then have them come help us kill the rest.)
    And the point of that would be what exactly?

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    While we fight the UNA takes over avbory then we have a big climactic scene at the cave were salmon barely saves someones life then we go back to avabory to find it under UNA control. Owned. o_O
    ____

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Yeah but the screaming kids could take out the plant too, they just choose not to, and its not as if the plant was ever more powerful than the kids.

    Face it, the metaphor just doesn't work.
    Find me a metaphor that works then. And I don't mean just for ABR, I mean any given subject. They don't stand up to lots of nitpicking.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    But what creates a new alternate universe? If we accept that it is time travel, the future that Salmon arrives in is still one in which he has been removed early from the timeline. Without him the Shades should have been unstoppable and the future should have been one with Shade rule.
    Alternate universes are created for every possible outcome. We can assume that in Almighty Salmon's future universe, the Shades did not have the Power of the Plot™, Plot Shielding™ and New Powers as the Plot Demands™ on their side and were defeated by the Sovice.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mask View Post
    Alternate universes are created for every possible outcome. We can assume that in Almighty Salmon's future universe, the Shades did not have the Power of the Plot™, Plot Shielding™ and New Powers as the Plot Demands™ on their side and were defeated by the Sovice.
    And in a seperate universe, Salmon was cool with Leroy falling in love with Threeshades, Lying was able to settle down and write a book, and Randomizer found his true love: Landscape Painting.
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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Yeah but the screaming kids could take out the plant too, they just choose not to, and its not as if the plant was ever more powerful than the kids.

    Face it, the metaphor just doesn't work.
    Not if there was an enchantment placed on the plant so that only the 'adult' could remove it.
    All metaphors pale in the face of magic.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    And in a seperate universe, Salmon was cool with Leroy falling in love with Threeshades, Lying was able to settle down and write a book, and Randomizer found his true love: Landscape Painting.
    That actually makes more sense than you might think.

    The Many Worlds theory in a (heavily-influence if not entirely abiding by) D&D setting is extremely apt. Travel far enough into the Plane of Shadow and you find other worlds.

    Meaning it's possible Threeshade's "temporal teleport" was really an extremely whacked out Plane Shift.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonAngel View Post
    While we fight the UNA takes over avbory then we have a big climactic scene at the cave were salmon barely saves someones life then we go back to avabory to find it under UNA control. Owned. o_O
    unnecessary as the UNA already controls a lot of Avbaroy by default. Also unlikely as the fight against the shades cant possibly take so long asnd be so distracting that they wouldn't notice the UNA conquering the world in the meantime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyinginbedmon View Post
    That actually makes more sense than you might think.

    The Many Worlds theory in a (heavily-influence if not entirely abiding by) D&D setting is extremely apt. Travel far enough into the Plane of Shadow and you find other worlds.

    Meaning it's possible Threeshade's "temporal teleport" was really an extremely whacked out Plane Shift.
    Also casting a spell named "reality shift" several times can quite easily throw reality out of its hinges, i imagine.
    Last edited by Threeshades; 2009-01-03 at 09:55 PM.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Question: Is Avbaroy the Material Plane, or is it for all extensive purposes, the material plane for spell effects.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Threeshades View Post
    unnecessary as the UNA already controls a lot of Avbaroy by default. Also unlikely as the fight against the shades cant possibly take so long asnd be so distracting that they wouldn't notice the UNA conquering the world in the meantime.



    Also casting a spell named "reality shift" several times can quite easily throw reality out of its hinges, i imagine.
    Yeah, but imagine this: The heroes go to face off with the Shades. Meanwhile, far away, a terrible battle begins as the UNA marches to battle against the Neo-Moon Elf Empire.
    The heroes win (hopefully)but are aware of the battle. They thus travel to Alphantica. By the time they get there, and hear the news, the battle is over and the Neo-Moon Elf Empire is no more.
    /\The former.
    Last edited by The Gremlin; 2009-01-03 at 10:00 PM.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Shades of gray View Post
    Question: Is Avbaroy the Material Plane, or is it for all extensive purposes, the material plane for spell effects.
    I treat Avbaroy's universe as the Prime Material Plane. The fact that it has more planets in it makes it even more suited, given that there are infinite demons. "Avbaroy" is also used as shorthand for the PMP.

    I also like to think there are other planets mirroring Avbaroy's in their own planes, like an entire universe full of planets entirely of lava for the Elemental Plane of Fire. But that's a personal preference.
    Last edited by Lyinginbedmon; 2009-01-03 at 10:03 PM.

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    Default Re: ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gremlin View Post
    Yeah, but imagine this: The heroes go to face off with the Shades. Meanwhile, far away, a terrible battle begins as the UNA marches to battle against the Neo-Moon Elf Empire.
    The heroes win (hopefully)but are aware of the battle. They thus travel to Alphantica. By the time they get there, and hear the news, the battle is over and the Neo-Moon Elf Empire is no more.
    The Neo-moon elf empire. Does that even exist? I mean there has been only one moon elf shown in plot-setting time that was Threeshades. Who was usurped by the Shades. And together they never controlled much more than lots of Evil-because-the-book-said-so races and underdark races (that dont necessarily have to be evil). A real neo moon-elf empire doesnt really exist anymore, at least it has been just recently left behind by the shades who assume to have gotten rid of their bothersome host and dont produce their own mooks now.


    anyhow that would be way too much work, I thought we wanted to get this plot done.

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