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2009-01-03, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Where the hell does it say this? And please, don't say Klog 13 because it doesn't say it there.
Stacks without a commander are obligated to attack. Its a rule. This implies: a)that some or all Archons are commander units or b)Charlie is able to use his personal commander status remotely.
Actually, independence doesn't. Charlie no longer has enough Archons to take the garrison on his turn(unless he has more Archons in range). All Paron would need to do to hold out through Charlie's turn is retreat everyone to the dungeon. Also, (and again)Charlie didn't follow his last hand-shake agreement with Ansom. Remember when Ansom set up the Chokepoint plan, he had Charlie coming, allied with TV. Charlie broke that plan because he wasn't in a true 'alliance'. I wouldn't trust him that way again if I were Ansom.
Very fine print.
1.Because Charlie needs it too.
2.Because Charlie has proven he won't abide by less. Offering a 'nothing', and asking for 'something' is a time honored con, but only works once.Last edited by Godskook; 2009-01-03 at 11:37 AM.
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2009-01-03, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Just because a unit is flying doesn't mean it is necessarily in "airspace." Are the orlys in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0010.html this comic in airspace? Airspace might mean areas high off the ground that you need flying to reach, or in this context just attacking the top of the tower by flying there.
Perhaps we're taking these zone rules too technically? It might not be quite as rigid as hex movement rules. It might just be logistics. To attack the tower by air you need to get past the flying units guarding it. To attack the garrison wall you have to break through the outer wall. To attack the dungeons you need to fight through the tunnel guards.
There's no reason why a flying unit couldn't attack the outer wall. The thing people are getting tripped up on is this - it's not that flying units can only attack airspace. It's that only flying units can enter airspace. They can enter and attack other zones as well.
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2009-01-03, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I have told people many times here and elsewhere to swallow their pride and admit it when they are obviously wrong (about parts of their arguments). I can do no less myself. I have to say the rules (known and unknown) can be twisted to account for what happened in the comic strips.
I guess that leaves me the other option for not liking this strip. I don't like the story. Yes, this is presented to us as a wargame (commentary), but it is a story after all, in heart at least. People said how this is a subversion of the usual heroics one sees and keeps rooting for the heroes, but when viewed from the "evil" side POV people get frustrated. This is not the case for me. I am not rooting for anyone in Erf. Also in the stories/movies where heroes do illogical stuff like that I am not rooting for them. I'm decrying the writer's mental handicaps. So yeah, even if Erf is presented from an interesting perspective I still don't like the story it's telling us of late because it's the same old same-old. I do appreciate the Erf writers though for their subversion and I don't consider them mentally handicapped like the ones playing it straight.
This is a nice idea. We shall see.
I will propose the following silly idea to stir up a hornet's nest:
Stanley is Hitler (wasn't he a lowly corporal in WW1?). Ansom and the RCC are the British and their Allies. Charlie is USA (made profit by selling/leasing things in the start of the war, then making the biggest profit at the end too). Parson is like a guy in so many novels who travels back in time to change history. :p
PS: The moral discussion in this thread is ridiculous. This isn't peaceful real life. This isn't even war. This is a War-Game. The purpose of existance is totally different and a lot less vague than in real life.
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2009-01-03, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Except, as stated, the alliance goes on the LAST ally's turn. In your scenario, instead of the enemy getting the jump on the hit-and-run units, the uninvolved third party would be shifted until AFTER the hit-and-run units have had their turn. In other words, the enemy just wasted 500 schmuckers.
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2009-01-03, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Rob Balder explained the zones in this post today, so i guess Ansom taking the pliers in his turn was okay with the rules.
but still there are some things (most of them already mentioned) in the recent 2 pages that gave people reason to raise an eyebrow:
- damage effects: Ansom might have or has taken damage in the following situations:
fighting the undead horde in (pg. 118 - 119), taking a full hit from undead warlord Webinar that knocked him out (120.2), crashing hard on the wall after falling from quite a distance (120.4, you can estimate the falling distance in 120.6 - i'd say between 10 and 15 meters), which crashes his helmet, but doesnt keep him from immediately regaining consciousness (someone being k.o. awakening after another massive hit is quite remarkable in all real and fictional universes in know of...), and then figthing the undead horde again (121.13). still, in 122 we can see no scratches or any other kind of injuries on him. only his cape got a bit gnawed off.
the only damage Wanda took was from the fall in 121.11. in 121.10 we can estimate the falling distance - its about 6 times her physical height - so i'd say its something below 10 meters. Wanda is mortally wounded despite her wearing full body armor, which seems odd compared to Ansom, whose spine or organs obviously are not crushed even though he's only wearing some fancy leather dress.
- time bending: already mentined numerous times - how many seconds would it take the WAF to cover those approx. 10 - 15 meters to Ansoms position? 4 seconds? 5? Ansom had a lot more than that to get up, mourn Webinar, call the Archon, find the accept button and have the Archons complete their spells. but time works different in erfworld, so maybe strategy game mechanics apply, where you get all the time you need for important decisions like that contract.
- definition of airspace: i think a lot of confusion comes from the missing, plausible definition of GK airspace. when is a unit in airspace? when its feet dont touch the ground? so a person jumping up would be in airspace, being a valid target for an Archon for a moment? or are flying units in airspace? a flying unipegtaur that stretches out one of its leg to touch the ground or the outer wall would be able to avoid taking damage from an archon? imho the existance of the airspace zone itself poses some problems to a strategy setting like this, where units can move and act freely in combat.
also its obviously possible for ground units to hit air zone targets by shooting arrows, but its not possible for air units to attack ground targets with spells? that seems odd.
- disappointment in dramaturgy: i think most of the readers believe that Wanda, who is undoubtedly one of the most favored characters, will attune to the pliers. Wanda herself and even Ansom seem to know that already. so i guess the majority of readers expected or hoped that Wanda would have her attunement in 122 - everything was set up perfectly. but the Authors decided to let the opportunity for this highlight pass and instead had Charly save the day for Ansom - again. imho this disappointed many a reader here and even though i am certain that Wanda will get healed and attune to the pliers at a later time, it might have hurt the dramaturgy of the story a bit, frustrating some people here.
anyway, its the authors who tell the story and they had their good reasons for the turn of events. i think this is a great, exceptionally witty designed web comic and i'm sure every disappointment some of us had to accept for the moment will be made forgotten by the upcoming grand finale of this chapter.
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2009-01-03, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
People seem to be making a big deal out of nothing with these two strips. This is warfare. why should it be less complicated just because it's a comic? For all we know Ansom may be stuck inside GK for the night. (it'd make sence because I think he just used up the last of his move) what's to stop parson from simply strolling over to him, punting him over the head and taking his arkenpliars then? because obviously Parson doesn't give a crap about the day night rule.
I'm not too sure about the zone thing... but as far as i've seen only Ansom can be accused of switching zone's, but he's got the move to do so and it's his turn.
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2009-01-03, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
All I'm saying is that the Archons just proved they were able to selectively not engage targets. Whatever the reason, this is not a problem.
Actually, independence doesn't. Charlie no longer has enough Archons to take the garrison on his turn(unless he has more Archons in range). All Paron would need to do to hold out through Charlie's turn is retreat everyone to the dungeon. Also, (and again)Charlie didn't follow his last hand-shake agreement with Ansom. Remember when Ansom set up the Chokepoint plan, he had Charlie coming, allied with TV. Charlie broke that plan because he wasn't in a true 'alliance'. I wouldn't trust him that way again if I were Ansom.
Besides, Charlie was able to send this massive force all the way to GK in a single turn. It would extremely convenient if he just happened to have enough insta-summonsed Archons to conquer GK against the forces Parson had on Day 5, but no more.
Secondly, I don't think Parson could save his bacon by retreating to the dungeon, since he could just as easily have done that last turn. The only area that Parson could retreat to now that he might not have been able to retreat to before would be the Tunnels, but if he does that he'll lose GK when the Garrison is overrun. No, if Charlie could conquer GK at the start of the current day (and we know he could), Parson's only hope to repel him the following day would be the zombie extras. And as I've said, I don't think that's a very good hope.
As for the point that Charlie cannot be trusted, I'd agree. But once again, what exactly is Ansom going to do if he refuses that deal? Charlie would obviously be willing to hang Ansom out to dry. Either Ansom accepts the deal and risks that Charlie will betray him, or he just croaks right then and there. That's a REALLY strong bargaining position for Charlie, and I'm saying it would be out of character for him not to take it.
-H
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2009-01-03, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
My point in this all along was that RCC troops would be attacking Archons, not anything else.
Actually, Ansom sans pliers proves that they are actually non-sucky combat units, at least to some degree. Look at the trouble Ansom is having with them.
Ansom with pliers has been pwning uncroaked since the beginning of the comic, of any quality.
1.The fact that the siege hasn't broken through yet may be because of the horde.
2.They've only been fighting who I believe is the RCC's single best Warlord with/without pliers. They were giving even him a hard time without the pliers, imagine what they'd do to standard infantry.
He might've sent every Archon within a turns reach, he might have more, but GK more than triple their force. I doubt Charlie has 30 more Archons(the doubling number) in reach of GK, especially since he is a global enough thinker to call this the "great western conflict".
He had no threat from Charlie last turn(well, that couldn't be removed diplomatically). Today, his threat was purely from siege units, which are apparently best defended against on the outer-wall.
Actually, somebody pointed out that Parson could've played Charlie. Parson's retelling of the question was something like 'how many additional Archons would be needed to take GK', and the wording could be such that Parson could play fast and loose with the wording to give Charlie the bare minimum to give him a 1% chance of doing it.
You know what? I'm arguing a moot point. It *IS* an alliance, as stated in the fine print that is readable, and if I remember right, by the Archons as well. What Charlie could've theoretically done is moot because it has happened.
Err...scratch that. It is at fricken top of the contract. It says rather blatantly "TERMS OF ALLIANCE". Ergo, since Ansom accepted, Charlie's Archons won't get a turn until after GK tomorrow.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2009-01-03, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
On the point that ansom doesn't seem to be taking damage.......
We know that magical weapons and suchlike can bestow various extra affects, ranging from types of protection (wanda's shield from her staff) to new attacks (van de graff) to bonuses (both the arkenpliers and arkenhammer provide these).
We also know that things can have -regeneration- as a bonus.
Now if I was a front liney type commander who was royalty, heir apparent of my very large side and chief warlord of said side, and was leading a coalition against another (initially) very large side led by a dude quite capable of -one shotting people at around my level of ability- (see ceaser borgatta, not dead, but out of the fight long enough for stanley to escape) I know I'd sure as hell make sure one of those magic items gave regeneration.
Even without those particulars, regeneration would just be a damn useful ability to have if it gave you back hits in the middle of turns. It would prevent really low level stuff (like say, undead) from wearing you down easily for a more powerful unit to waste.
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2009-01-03, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
The Archons are in the Airspace zone, and thus can only be attacked by a) fliers in that zone, and b) archers in the Garrison. The only flying unit in the RCC at the moment seems to be Ansom. So the only risk to the Archons is if Ansom breaches the wall, breaches in the inner wall, moves his archers into the Garrison and then attacks the Archons. That seems a pretty minimal risk, compared to the potential reward. Remember, Charlie was willing to commit his Archons to battle at the start of Day 5.
Actually, Ansom sans pliers proves that they are actually non-sucky combat units, at least to some degree. Look at the trouble Ansom is having with them.
Ansom with pliers has been pwning uncroaked since the beginning of the comic, of any quality.
As for Ansom being some sort of uncroaked pwning machine, I'd point out that Wanda's small stack of undead fliers kicked his ass in less than a page. I'm sure Wanda gives them a large boost, but the difference is telling given the staggering numerical advantage. Parson even says that the zombies will be the "weakest kind" of uncroaked.
He had no threat from Charlie last turn(well, that couldn't be removed diplomatically). Today, his threat was purely from siege units, which are apparently best defended against on the outer-wall.
Actually, somebody pointed out that Parson could've played Charlie. Parson's retelling of the question was something like 'how many additional Archons would be needed to take GK', and the wording could be such that Parson could play fast and loose with the wording to give Charlie the bare minimum to give him a 1% chance of doing it.
You know what? I'm arguing a moot point. It *IS* an alliance, as stated in the fine print that is readable, and if I remember right, by the Archons as well. What Charlie could've theoretically done is moot because it has happened.
-HLast edited by Hatu; 2009-01-03 at 02:52 PM.
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2009-01-03, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that Stanley may not be guilty of attacking anybody. For one thing, if people were accusing him of unprovoked attacks of which he was not guilty, and going to war with him on that basis, I think he would have complained about that slander during his little rant. For another, sustaining such a deception (by the real attacker) and/or mistake (by the RCC) through an entire military campaign just doesn't seem at all plausible.Last edited by NobodySpecial; 2009-01-03 at 03:06 PM.
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2009-01-03, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
This is probably the most believable thing for me. Sure he many not be wearing as much as Wanda, but he's basically a tank-type character. He's able to withstand more damage because he's got the stats for it (more of a melee/close range fighter). Wanda, like so many other casters in RPGs and other games is a long-range fighter and probably has less HP than even Webinar.
Also on the topic of the fall, Wanda was diving to get those pliers and then her mount was destroyed. Ansom, on the other hand, was knocked off his mount but probably wasn't descending at such high speeds.There's been news about people surviving sky diving accidents from 10,000 feet, so if that can happen in real life, surely Ansom's fall couldn't have taken off that much HP. I'm sure that his HP is very low at this point however, probably one of the reasons that he backed away when the Golems appeared. Wanda's not so lucky, even in full armor, it probably doesn't give her too much of a bonus when she face planted into the ground.
The Undead? Well they're all low-level zombies that probably can't do much damage to Ansom.Last edited by jazz1m; 2009-01-03 at 03:42 PM.
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2009-01-03, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Or the Archons land?
1.He wasn't unarmed, just sans pliers. He is clearly wielding a zombie's sword.
2.Check out panel 5. If you can call his cape 'pristine', I need to learn a new language.
"Wanda's small stack of undead fliers kicked his ass in less than a page..." while Wanda made sure he couldn't hit a single thing.
Fixed!
He wasn't just fighting uncroaked in that fight, he was fighting a croakamancer who has had subtle forshadowing that she was good at combat. Surprise, surprise when she disables Ansom herself enough that another unit can sucker-punch him into a dismount/disarm in one hit.
For all we know "weakest kind" is simply an indicator of health. The damage stat might stay the same for all 'kinds' of uncroaked, regardless of quality.
Hmmm....would trading one caster and 4 flying uncroaked for 2-5 THOUSAND uncroaked change the odds a bit in Parson's favor? If I have to answer that myself, I'll be shocked. Besides, we don't know what kind of healing potions are kept stocked in GK. Wanda might be back to fighting/casting condition by morning.
(I know I left out Webinar/Dora. This is intentional because neither is part of the trade anymore)
People have overthought things before.
The Alliance does for Charlie:
1.Gives him reinforcements so that he doesn't do all the work.
2.Makes it easier to capture, not croak.
3.Allows him to get what he really wants from GK
4.AND GET PAID for getting exactly what he wants anyway.
5.Allows him to stay with what he's been feeding Ansom about his behavior.
Charlie didn't believe Parson could've lasted this long, at all. His mouth probably dropped when the uncroaked took the wall. He's probably betting that Parson is out of tricks, and thus the slight delay will cost him nothing and give him a lot(I bet Archons are expensive to replace). When it comes to shmuckers, Charlie reminds me of Tagon from Schlock Mercenary.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2009-01-03, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Singapore
Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
That doesn't make any sense.
First, it means that Ansom is openly lying to and deceiving Vinny, who has been shown as his closest friend. Why would he do that? Does the Ansom we see here or here or here seem like someone who would callously manipulate Vinny like that?
Second... well, just why? Saline IV is, by all acounts, a royal. We've seen nothing to indicate that Ansom would have had anything against him (indeed, he lists Stanley's presumed murder of him as Stanley's most vile deed.)
Sure, it's theoretically possible, but it would require the assumption that absolutely everything that we've been shown about Ansom is a deliberate lie, and all his friendships or relationships with others are a facade to conceal his inexplicable evil plans. I can't see why the authors would do something like that for an OMG SHOCKING SWERVE that has so little, well, interesting to it, beyond being a random plot twist.
Ansom is a more interesting character if he believes that he's noble in both senses of the word, and is making an honest attempt to act that way within the bounds of his views. Ansom as raving evil madman who backstabs and lies to his friends just to start random wars isn't nearly as interesting a character.
(Now, if you want to find someone other than Stanley who might've been responsible for Saline IV's death, Charlie is a much better bet -- especially if Charlie and Stanley had a deal together that went sour or was otherwise twisted by Charlie, which would be another factor explaining why Stanley hates him so much. The arkendish also gives Charlie a clear and obvious way to do the behind-the-scenes communication necessary to set that up, something Jetstone doesn't appear to have.)
We also don't know exactly what he demanded -- he could have demanded the Arkenpliers at the end of the battle. Sure, he could've just taken them, but doing it this way serves as extra insurance, and there are advantages to getting them as part of a (mostly) legitimate agreement rather than just stealing them.
Additionally, he likely demanded Parson and his artifacts if Jetstone wins, and maybe even the Arkenhammer (although it's not clear if Ansom would have the right to bargain with that.) That way, he gets all the prizes he wanted regardless of who wins, without having to do much real fighting for them.Last edited by Aquillion; 2009-01-03 at 04:14 PM.
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2009-01-03, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Maybe the rule could be based on where most of your support is coming from. If you are supported by wings, then you count as flying. A flying unit that is using its legs to support it counts as on the ground.
Likewise, someone jumping wouldn't count as being supported by wings.
Alternatively, 'airspace' count just start 5 meters above the ground.
imho the existance of the airspace zone itself poses some problems to a strategy setting like this, where units can move and act freely in combat.
also its obviously possible for ground units to hit air zone targets by shooting arrows, but its not possible for air units to attack ground targets with spells? that seems odd.
If an attacker held the outer walls, maybe they wouldn't be allowed to use archers to attack defenders who are in airspace, except during the attacker's turn.
Also, I think city airspace is different from normal airspace. For normal 'field' zones, the ground and air count as a single zone, so the airspace/ground issue is irrelevant.
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2009-01-03, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
The Archons cannot land until Charlie's next turn. At that time he would be attacking to capture Parson. His original plan involved pulling Parson out before Ansom could capture him, so that should still be possible even if Ansom doublecrosses him.
1.He wasn't unarmed, just sans pliers. He is clearly wielding a zombie's sword.
2.Check out panel 5. If you can call his cape 'pristine', I need to learn a new language.
2. Yes, his cape is damaged. I'm just comparing his face to the way he, Vinny and Jillian were presented on page 73. He clearly has not been taxed that badly, despite facing literally thousands of zombies.
"Wanda's small stack of undead fliers kicked his ass in less than a page..." while Wanda made sure he couldn't hit a single thing.
Fixed!
He wasn't just fighting uncroaked in that fight, he was fighting a croakamancer who has had subtle forshadowing that she was good at combat. Surprise, surprise when she disables Ansom herself enough that another unit can sucker-punch him into a dismount/disarm in one hit.
For all we know "weakest kind" is simply an indicator of health. The damage stat might stay the same for all 'kinds' of uncroaked, regardless of quality.
When describing the Arkenpliers back on page 22, he only says they "turn most uncroaked to dust." If Ansom were able to disintegrate these more powerful uncroaked as easily as he could the zombies, it would seem that dismounting Wanda would have been the way to go. The fact that he didn't try that makes me think it might have been a bit harder for him.
Its certainly possible that Wanda has some previously unmentioned ability to prevent people attacking uncroaked in her stack. But I think it's simpler to simply assume that these particular uncroacked take a bit more effort to put down, and so Ansom felt he was better off focusing on the brains of the operation.
Hmmm....would trading one caster and 4 flying uncroaked for 2-5 THOUSAND uncroaked change the odds a bit in Parson's favor? If I have to answer that myself, I'll be shocked. Besides, we don't know what kind of healing potions are kept stocked in GK. Wanda might be back to fighting/casting condition by morning.
At any rate, I really think you're overvaluing those zombies. Wanda has always been portrayed as a badass, and we know the Tower sub-zone gives a bonus to casters like Wanda. So far, we've seen the thousands of zombies accomplish exactly nothing in combat. In fact, we've just seen first hand that Wanda and her fliers were able to accomplish more than all those zombies put together.
So if you're asking me to believe that the tradeoff makes things harder for charlie, I'm going to have to say you're delusional. There is no evidence that that is true, but there is some evidence that it is false. The only way you can even begin to make that argument is if a) the sheer number of units in the Tower makes it harder to breach just as with the Outer Walls, or b) by "turn most uncroaked to dust" Ansom actually meant that the Arkenpliers make the wielder an stoppable engine of destruction against any and all purely uncroaked forces but have next to no effect if anything else is involved in the battle as well.
Option A is theoretically possible, but seems awfully strange to have left out: the need to breach the Walls with Siege equipment was portrayed as a quirk of the Outer Walls zone. Option B is just absurd.
The Alliance does for Charlie:
1.Gives him reinforcements so that he doesn't do all the work.
2.Makes it easier to capture, not croak.
3.Allows him to get what he really wants from GK
4.AND GET PAID for getting exactly what he wants anyway.
5.Allows him to stay with what he's been feeding Ansom about his behavior.
Charlie didn't believe Parson could've lasted this long, at all. His mouth probably dropped when the uncroaked took the wall. He's probably betting that Parson is out of tricks, and thus the slight delay will cost him nothing and give him a lot(I bet Archons are expensive to replace). When it comes to shmuckers, Charlie reminds me of Tagon from Schlock Mercenary.
I mean really, what exactly is Charlie getting out of an alliance that he couldn't get out of an unofficial team up? He can demand payment either way; we already know Charlie is in a position to dictate terms. The only possible advantage to a formal alliance is that he and Ansom will be able to coordinate their offensives. That would have been good enough if Charlie hadn't just demonstrated that he has unilaterally force comparable to the entire RCC, and that he can deploy that force on a moment's notice.
If Rob wants me to believe that Charlie suddenly fears his forces aren't enough to get the job done, he's going to have to show me something more convincing than implying that Parson might actually be in an even weaker position than he already was. An actual demonstration of the power of those zombies or an actual indication that there are realistic limits on Charlie's ability to project force would be a good place to start, even if it's largely too late to find them believable.
-HLast edited by Hatu; 2009-01-03 at 05:04 PM.
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2009-01-03, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I'm not entertaining a double-cross. If Ansom breaches the wall this turn, chases Parson into the dungeon, and makes a beachhead before ending turn(to heal for the last charge), Charlie would need to move his Archons through unled RCC stacks.
I doubt Ansom has had time to face more than two dozen uncroaked without his pliers. Two dozen is also the number of dwagons he faced on page 73. Even wounded, I expect the dwagons would put up a better fight, especially when there's still a warlord left to be dealt with.
What makes you think that a solo Warlord has more control over who hits who than a Caster leading a stack? Wouldn't the 'ability' that gives Ansom selectivity also grants it to Wanda. Physical proximity also plays a role in that, and Wanda purposely put herself between Ansom and her uncroaked.
What is your reasoning that Ansom has more control than Wanda?
I said healing potions. In games, enough healing potions solve any direct HP issue.
Rock-Scissors-Paper, anyone? Just because those uncroaked are ineffective against Ansom, a powerful warlord, doesn't mean that they'd be equally usless against a lesser force.
Well, lets work backwords. I'm *NOT* delusional, so does that mean that the tradeoff does make things harder for Charlie?
(p.s. calling people delusional isn't a good tactic)
or c)cannon fodder boosts the effectiveness of valuable units by taking hits for them. This is common in many games, and has been used in erf many times already.
or d)what appears as cannon fodder compared to the most powerful warlord of the RCC(my opinion) will be more formidable against a lesser opponent. This is also possible.
Ansom didn't figure it out prior sending his troops into the tunnels. Charlie has less battle experience against Parson, and shares Ansom asessment of current events as far as he has spoken on them.
Besides, the only piece on the board significant enough to save Parson, as far as I can tell, is Stanley, and I doubt Ansom or Charlie has even a remote idea that he is coming back.
Since we don't know how capable a Dwagon is compared to an Archon, we don't know how powerful Charlie's force really is. All we know is that it is good enough against the ground-based garrison.
Also, what makes you think that such an agreement is enforcable?
We shall see what we shall see.
Actually, I'd like that too, but not for believability, but because it'd make the story even better.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2009-01-03, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
True, but that was a special ability and likely tied to unit class.
A couple of things. First we know Ansoms armour took a lot of the damage (his helmet took zombie-webinars blow and possibly some of the fall damage). Its fairly beat up by the end.
Second, you know it might be something as simple as Ansom having a lot more hitpoints then Wanda, and falls doing a degree of random damage. Royalty-Class Commander vs. High-Level caster? There's no doubt who'd win a fist fight.Last edited by SteveD; 2009-01-03 at 07:49 PM.
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2009-01-03, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I can think of several reasons...
It's likely that whatever Charlie demanded from Ansom is part of a 'hard' exchange -- that is, something with immediate inescapable mechanical consequences (otherwise, how does he know he'll get it?) In order to demand that and be trusted, he'd have to have an equally-firm mechanical commitment on his part; an alliance is likely the only thing Ansom would respect, especially given how Charlie behaved last time he wasn't mechanically compelled.
Just because Charlie can take the city, doesn't mean he can't do it without losses. Using an alliance with Ansom, dictated on his terms, he can make Ansom soak most of the losses, while taking most of the gains (at least, the ones he wanted) for himself. Remember, the things we know he wants -- Parson, Parson's artifact, etc -- are not the major goals of the coalition. He claims he doesn't want the city, so why waste the lives of Archons grabbing it just to get one captive?
Of course, there's other things he likely wants from Jetstone -- the Arkenhammer is the most obvious possibility, but flat-out moolah is also likely. Assuming there was a massive cash transfer the instant Ansom pressed 'accept'... again, it seems unlikely that he would have done it unless there was a specific mechanical exchange for an alliance.
Another thing to remember: Charlie was able to dictate terms, but he still had to get Ansom to agree quickly. If his explanation was lengthy or convoluted, it wouldn't have worked -- he needed straightforward amendments to an existing offer. Hence, an amended alliance.
Making a formal alliance with Jetstone is simply the most logical thing to do from Charlie's standpoint. He knows that he has enough troops to likely win on his own; and he knows that Parson can just barely survive the coalition this turn (as in, again, it's not a certainty.)
But from his perspective, with their forces combined victory is a certainty. He gets to extract additional concessions from Ansom, his Archons suffer fewer casualties, and he's basically guaranteed to get everything else he wants.
He respects Parson (or says he does, at least), but he doesn't know Parson is the main character. Heck, if we didn't know Parson was the main character, we'd think he's booped right now anyway. (And some people on this forum seem to anyway.)
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2009-01-03, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Agreed. As a reader, I feel cheated - the Charlie save was at least foreshadowed, and therefore barely escapes being a deus ex machina, but Ansom getting his carpet, recovering the pliers - something very strongly hinted as not possible by klog 13 (and yeah, I know this was debated earlier in the thread and I didn't read it yet, but by my interpretation the pliers are quite firmly planted in Courtyard, which by the klog is inaccessible from Airspace) - and escaping before Parson could get one unit down there to salvage them is just too much.
Not happy. Even speed of plot has limits. Or at least should.
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2009-01-03, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I see several people commenting on Ansom's 'brilliance' at being able to keep the RCC together.
I find the reasoning flawed for this simple reason: up until this point, the RCC has won every battle. Hands down. I'm sure they pretty much routed their foes.
As I'm sure history will tell you, it's easy to keep people together when you're winning. Your leaders will give you a lot more slack if you bring in victories that they can capitalize upon, politically.
However, after two setbacks--one being the siege losses and the other being the complete loss of most or all of Jetstone forces--the alliance was already starting to crack. I'm sure Ansom's little tirade about the Titan's Will didn't help (it even creeped out Vinny a bit), but, frankly, the RCC is still winning, and they should know it.
With all the uncroaked on the walls, that's all it took to make the RCC start to crack. Heck, if Parsons had been able to thinkamantically contact all of the Coalition's leaders, you know there would be more fractures.
And, really, some of the problems that would plague a real life army the size of Ansom's are absent. He doesn't have to worry about food or weapons or any other logistical problems. He doesn't have to worry about desertion or the training of his men (ie, he has professional, 'born' soldiers and not peasant militia).
Frankly, the ease at which the Coalition has been shaken (especially the Duke) is actually a testament to how awful Ansom is. He doesn't consult his lieutenants to update them on a plan. He, apparently, didn't brace them enough for the casualties they would likely suffer. Heck, if anything, their casualties have actually been lighter because the dwagons haven't been sortying out to raid them with firebreath/gummybreath.Last edited by Altima; 2009-01-03 at 08:42 PM.
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2009-01-03, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I think the main problem, and sorry to bring it up but it has to be said, is that the pacing is not working. this sort of status quo-preserving action would be tolerable in a regularly updating comic, but erfworld is not. as it is now, we get, what? a two week wait for any plot progress at all, and when the comic comes it immediately reverses any progression it makes? I mean, are you really expecting the readership to wait even more in the vain hope that the plot might actually go somewhere?
If erfworld wants to continue its readership, it should either update more regularly or cut out the padding.
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2009-01-03, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Unless Ansom double-crosses Charlie, his units can just stand aside and let the Archons fight Parson, just as the Archons let Wanda fight Ansom. The Archons would have to fight on their own, but I've already said I believe them strong enough to do so.
I doubt Ansom has had time to face more than two dozen uncroaked without his pliers. Two dozen is also the number of dwagons he faced on page 73. Even wounded, I expect the dwagons would put up a better fight, especially when there's still a warlord left to be dealt with.
At any rate, look at the swath he's cut through them on page 119. That's more than 2 dozen, and unlike in the Dwagon incident all of their attacks will target him.
What makes you think that a solo Warlord has more control over who hits who than a Caster leading a stack? Wouldn't the 'ability' that gives Ansom selectivity also grants it to Wanda. Physical proximity also plays a role in that, and Wanda purposely put herself between Ansom and her uncroaked.
What is your reasoning that Ansom has more control than Wanda?
As for the notion that lesser units are ablative, we've seen Manpower specifically attack Jillian on page 71, completely ignoring her Gwiffons, Orlies and Archons. So I'd say it is reasonable to expect that Warlords can target specific units. It's certainly better supported by the comic than the idea that Croakmancers can somehow shield uncroaked from divine artifacts.
I said healing potions. In games, enough healing potions solve any direct HP issue.
Rock-Scissors-Paper, anyone? Just because those uncroaked are ineffective against Ansom, a powerful warlord, doesn't mean that they'd be equally usless against a lesser force.
Well, lets work backwords. I'm *NOT* delusional, so does that mean that the tradeoff does make things harder for Charlie?
(p.s. calling people delusional isn't a good tactic)
How can we hope to answer that question in some objective manner? Well, as it happens each of those groups faces off against the exact same force: Ansom. The results are decisive. Wanda outperformed the zombies by about as much as it is possible to outperform something. The only possible wild card is that the Arkenpliers are known to be effective against the uncroaked. But aside from herself, every unit in Wanda's force is also an uncroaked, and they STILL trounced Ansom.
You can talk all you want about how Wanda has special undocumented powers that tilt the balance, but that is nothing but pure speculation. Show some actual evidence in the comics if you want to convince me.
or c)cannon fodder boosts the effectiveness of valuable units by taking hits for them. This is common in many games, and has been used in erf many times already.
or d)what appears as cannon fodder compared to the most powerful warlord of the RCC(my opinion) will be more formidable against a lesser opponent. This is also possible.
Besides, the only piece on the board significant enough to save Parson, as far as I can tell, is Stanley, and I doubt Ansom or Charlie has even a remote idea that he is coming back.
But that's beside the point. Charlie didn't think there was any way for Parson to save himself last time, and yet Parson did so without Stanley. Why would Charlie assume his guess must be better than Parson's this time? It seems to me that, now that he's seen what Parson is capable of, he'd want to take Parson down ASAP. On Charlie's turn on day 5, Parson had had no turns with which to prepare his defense against Charlie's forces. If he waits until Ansom's turn on day 6, Parson will have had 2 turns to prepare. That strikes me as a little laid back, even for Charlie.
Also, what makes you think that such an agreement is enforcable?
If I had to guess, I'd say Ansom is unlikely to back out of a deal he agreed to, and I'd further guess that Charlie would agree with my assessment.
We shall see what we shall see.
-H
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2009-01-03, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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2009-01-03, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
That was a bit of hyperbole, maybe. But it comes down to the same thing -- what else is Webinar supposed to take away from that statement? Why else would Ansom care about whether or not Jillian is 'very grateful?'
Sure, fine, he wanted her to agree to come have fine wine and dinner in his tent, then he would take her pants off. His awkward statement about how grateful she's likely to be, though, doesn't have too many other interpretations.Last edited by Aquillion; 2009-01-03 at 11:42 PM.
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2009-01-04, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Not really correct. pclips has stated that Ansom and Wanda were in the outer walls zone during today's comic. They did not switch zones at all, and no rule was broken. The outer walls, and the area immediately outside and inside them are one zone. The garrison is only further inward, within the square walls. This is logical, since otherwise an attacker could not move through the breach in the walls he might have created unless all the other parts of the walls would have been taken first, which would be a bit silly. They just can't attack the square central walls (the garrison) until after all the (outer) walls have fallen.
Ansom getting his carpet back is perfectly consistent with the rules, since objects can be handed between zones, in this case airspace and outer walls.
The Archons destroying Parson's limited ariforce was consistent with their powers and the rules, since we already have the fact that they could take the garrison in one turn prior to the Trioxin spell, and the airforce was a small part of that.
So, no deus ex machina here.
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2009-01-04, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
Except, as stated, the alliance goes on the LAST ally's turn. In your scenario, instead of the enemy getting the jump on the hit-and-run units, the uninvolved third party would be shifted until AFTER the hit-and-run units have had their turn. In other words, the enemy just wasted 500 schmuckers.
Of course, the way people think in Erfworld it would make A vunerable to betrayal by C, so hiring a random side to be C might not be a good idea... Now we just need to know where new sides have their turn go...
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2009-01-04, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I think the logical explanation is that Juillain would be "very grateful" when Webinar prevents her from being captured yet again. He does start his speech by saying Webinar's mission might turn into a rescue/recovery after all.
The issue is that you seem to think "very grateful" is some sort of sexual euphemism. I think Ansom just meant that Jillian will be happy enough about not being captured to overlook the fact that Ansom and Webinar are ignoring her wishes. She didn't want an escort.
No freudian convolutions needed.
-H
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2009-01-04, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
I still don't see any innuendo in Ansom's statement to Webinar.
Unled stacks would be compelled to attack by game rules.
If he stayed there, yes, but he didn't. He only stayed there long enough(while sans pliers) to engage a small number of them.
In page 119, he's getting 1-hit kills and can selectively engage. I think he could've done that all day without a scratch if WAF hadn't intervened.
Besides, I explicitly stated "without his pliers" in the quote you're responding to, yet you're pointing to a time when he has pliers. WTF, mate?
No it isn't. If Wanda has equal control, then the fact that Wanda put herself between Ansom and the uncroaked force his hand. Ansom had no choice but to fight Wanda first. What he thought was his best move can't be divined from his battle with Wanda.
Jillian uses orly's as a decoy, so is it really hard to believe that Wanda can do the same, only using herself as the decoy?
Nope. That was almost pure speculation. Maggie's statement about healing Wanda makes me believe that its a good speculation because I doubt any of the casters have healomancy spells.
Somehow, you don't sound apologetic.
Did you ignore the comments you're replying to? How does Ansom(rock) beating the horde(scissors) imply that there are no units out there that could be considered (paper)?
The only thing undocumented about the 'powers' I attribue to Wanda is the ability Warlords have to direct combat. I'm stretching it a little to by claiming that all commanders have that ability. Everything else is documented.
First, what the hell is "ablatively"? I give up when copy/paste into an online dictionary doesn't give me a workable definition.
Second, you're joking, right? Jillian uses the cannon fodder approach every single time she tries to kill a dwagon. TV uses this against Stanley and the Dwagons. Ansom attempts this tactic when he enters the Doughnut of Doom, but the weak hex proves too strong for it(the only multi-hex version I can remember). It can also be argued that Sizemore did this in the tunnels, but that battle isn't shown, so we don't know.
Third, as to an occasion in which a warlord has been unable to attack a given target. Webinar and Dora versus Sizemore. Webinar's shout at the beginning of the page 112 indicates that he had to kill every last member of Sizemore's stack to get near him.
True, but reputation seems to be more important to Charlie than most other things.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2009-01-04, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122
He got Ansom to make some (precise nature yet undisclosed) "outrageous" concession.
In return, the only thing he gave up the chance to attack prior to GK's move tomorrow. So what? To all indications, he's in it for gain, not glory. If he can get what he wants while somebody else pays the butcher's bill (e.g. if the "outrageous" concession is that Ansom doesn't get to croak Parson for his outrageous if not downright blasphemous insults, but must instead capture him and hand him over to Charlie), why on Erf would he not gladly do so?