Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

[TamLin]

Actually, reading back from strip 1, it's pretty obvious now that Ansom was the person who got the goblins to kill Saline IV.

Wait, what? Explain that theory please, because I'm at a loss as to how that would even work, what his motivation would be, and what evidence there is to support it.

Come on people, even if you don't like Ansom as a character, arent' these efforts to pin every bad thing in the history of Erfworld on him starting to seem a little goofy? At this rate, I'm half-expecting someone to accuse Ansom of shooting JFK and kidnapping the Lindbhergh baby.

[SteveMB]

I mean really, what exactly is Charlie getting out of an alliance that he couldn't get out of an unofficial team up?

Remember the last time Ansom relied on having an "unofficial team up" rather than an "alliance" with Charlie? He'd have to be an imbecile to consider such an arrangement again.

Thus, Charlie's options are a formal alliance or acting as a completely independent third party. The latter means paying his own butcher's bill, possibly against both GK and RCC forces.

[dr pepper]

First, what the hell is "ablatively"? I give up when copy/paste into an online dictionary doesn't give me a workable definition.

"Ablate" means "wear away" or "wear down". A heat shield is ablative becase it burns up as the spacecraft plunges through the atmosphere, thus keeping the important parts of the craft intact. To use units "ablatively" means that they are deliberately interposed to force the enemy to kill them before it can get closer to a more valuable unit. This differs from "cannon fodder", which may or may not be subject to attack.

[Aquillion]

The issue is that you seem to think "very grateful" is some sort of sexual euphemism. I think Ansom just meant that Jillian will be happy enough about not being captured to overlook the fact that Ansom and Webinar are ignoring her wishes. She didn't want an escort.

I'm not saying it's deliberately intended to be a sexual euphemism; I'm saying that Ansom is probably saying more than he intended. There is a very clear "she will be grateful to me" subtext there, even if you're missing it; that's the only real point of those lines, to emphasize the unusual nature of Ansom's relationship with Jillian, and to set up Webinar's later frustration over it.

And the only reason Ansom cares so much about Jillian's wishes is, again, because he wants to get inside her pants. Webinar couldn't give a damn whether Jillian is grateful or not; but Ansom's interactions with Jillian are painfully, obviously unprofessional, and that page is meant to emphasize both that and the awkwardness of Webinar's position.

[NobodySpecial]

Wait, what? Explain that theory please, because I'm at a loss as to how that would even work, what his motivation would be, and what evidence there is to support it.

Come on people, even if you don't like Ansom as a character, arent' these efforts to pin every bad thing in the history of Erfworld on him starting to seem a little goofy? At this rate, I'm half-expecting someone to accuse Ansom of shooting JFK and kidnapping the Lindbhergh baby.

Ansom is the only person calling the death of Saline 'regicide'. Vinny won't go any farther than saying 'sorta', and there's no more evidence that Stanley did it than there is Ansom...but Ansom is the one who goes nutbars over the idea of a commoner ursurping a royal's position. Makes one wonder how he felt about a fellow royal giving successorship to Stanley. Also, remember what Vinny said - Jetstone had next to nothing happen to it, and ends up pushing the coalition to the final destruction of Stanley even though there are plenty of other lands with much bigger greivances who wouldn't. Of course, we're also presuming that it was Stanley who did all this stuff as leader of GK, rather than Saline giving him orders to, all while we're presuming that Saline gave his seal of approval to a unit whose Loyalty and Duty scores were so low he would commit regicide.

Then look at his plan of attack. ONLY Jetstone goes inside the tunnels, even though it's a fair bet some of the other units would have underground bonuses. Cui bono?

There's no smoking gun, but all these events and statements form a pattern. The pattern is that while Saline led GK, Ansom/Jetstone couldn't build an alliance to destroy it...but when a non-royal does, it could. Ansom hates non-royals, and especially Stanley for attuning a tool of the Titans BEFORE he became ruler. Ansom had means, motive, AND opportunity, and it wouldn't surprise me. As far as lying to Vinny...Ansom has spent more time avoiding tough questions from Vinny then he has answering them, hasn't he?

[TamLin]

No offense, but that's pretty thin. Almost entirely speculation. Stanely gained a lot more from Saline's downfall than Ansom did, so if you're going to throw around the "Who gains?" theories you have to start with him. And besides, how exactly did Ansom influence the gobwins to overthrow Saline in the first place? What possible leverage could he have had (which he has clearly lost now)? Why would he go that far out of his way to put Stanley in charge? It's a very strange theory.

As far as Gobwin Knob's aggression toward Jetstone: "Next to nothing" is a fancy way of saying "something". Beyond that, Ansom has the Arkenpliers and Stanley wants them, so either he could sit around and wait for dwagons to show up on his doorstep (resulting in a loss of life on Jetstone's side far and away beyond what we've seen here) or he could do something about it.

[NobodySpecial]

No offense, but that's pretty thin.

Yep. But it still fits.

Almost entirely speculation. Stanely gained a lot more from Saline's downfall than Ansom did, so if you're going to throw around the "Who gains?" theories you have to start with him. And besides, how exactly did Ansom influence the gobwins to overthrow Saline in the first place? What possible leverage could he have had (which he has clearly lost now)? Why would he go that far out of his way to put Stanley in charge? It's a very strange theory.

We know some facts from the preceding episodes.

1) Stanley went out with some raiders.
2) FAQ sees a 'flight of dwagons' before falling.
3) Saline dies when the gobwins break their alliance and kill him.
4) Wherever Stanley went (You see what I think), it was within a turn's range of GK on Class A dwagons.
5) Allies have their own treasuries and can break alliances (That's from the klog).

It makes perfect sense that if Ansom wanted to get rid of Stanley as a threat, he had to remove Saline. If he did it right, Stanley would have been frozen - unable to attack as the rules state when a city falls. The big hole in that is that Stanley was his successor, a situation that must have really frosted Ansom's cookies when it became apparent.

(I also note that gobwins are no longer allies and are merely Stanley's units now.)

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

the capt'n's back ;)

Ansom's ineffectiveness against the uncroaked airforce and the reason Wanda and Webinar knocked him down can be attributed to Wanda's "link" to the Arkenpliers ('what have you done to it?'). the pliers became unwieldy when Ansom attempted to engage this (reader)foreshadowed atuner...

Charlie... charlie is a magnificent bastard, but only because he kept the once declined alliance-deal on hand in case Ansom would go back on his decision... and he probably ammended it so that Parson would be handed over to him, rather than get croaked...
I do hope this new alliance means the archons are back to acting in the RCC's turn, I fear it might mean that Charlescomm is the new coalition leadership and may act before GK!!!

[ghost81]

I don't think it matters who leads the coalition - pclips has stated in another thread that all units in an alliance move at the time the latest side in the alliance would move. So even if Charlie is in charge his Archons can't act until the same time the RCC has been acting all along - be that Jetstone's turn, Sofa Kings turn or any of the other members turn.

[Eraniverse]

Yep. But it still fits.

We know some facts from the preceding episodes.

1) Stanley went out with some raiders.
2) FAQ sees a 'flight of dwagons' before falling.
3) Saline dies when the gobwins break their alliance and kill him.
4) Wherever Stanley went (You see what I think), it was within a turn's range of GK on Class A dwagons.
5) Allies have their own treasuries and can break alliances (That's from the klog).

It makes perfect sense that if Ansom wanted to get rid of Stanley as a threat, he had to remove Saline. If he did it right, Stanley would have been frozen - unable to attack as the rules state when a city falls. The big hole in that is that Stanley was his successor, a situation that must have really frosted Ansom's cookies when it became apparent.

(I also note that gobwins are no longer allies and are merely Stanley's units now.)

Okay first you imply that Ansom hated Saline for designating Stanley heir. Then you say that Ansom didnt know Stanley was heir.

So either Ansom overthrew a kingdom that to his knowledge was functioning within perfectly normal Royal parameters for no reason or he deliberately put Stanley on the throne.

Nope. Doesn't fit at all.

[Goshen]

And the only reason Ansom cares so much about Jillian's wishes is, again, because he wants to get inside her pants. Webinar couldn't give a damn whether Jillian is grateful or not; but Ansom's interactions with Jillian are painfully, obviously unprofessional, and that page is meant to emphasize both that and the awkwardness of Webinar's position.

Yes, there is some of that, but she is also the most badass warlord Ansom has. It says she's tough in the Erfworld cast of characters, and she took out a full-grown dwagon in one shot early in the story line. Finally, she refers to herself as a "nine" while Webinar is only a "two". I presume her nine bonus is rather hefty and transfer all or in part to units under her command.

One of the many interesting subplots in the story is the tension between Ansom and Jillian as they try to reconcile thei whenr professional relationship and personal needs. THAT is a fairly universal story, except that they have to do the professional roles right, or they may end up pushing daisies. It's rather interesting that Webinar was so suspicious of Ansom's trust in Jillian, when Webinar is fighting alongside his own girlfriend.

On another not, Ansom may end up being Charlie's girlfriend for all we know of that amended contract. He certainly has a nice bum, which our artist likes to show us with strange frequency.

[Suicide Junkie]

Nope. That was almost pure speculation. Maggie's statement about healing Wanda makes me believe that its a good speculation because I doubt any of the casters have healomancy spells.

Sizemore has probably researched healing spells. He's certainly not going to be good at it, but if all she needs is +1HP, then his efforts should be sufficient.
The repairing of the golem that incapacitated Webinar may or may not have been healomancy at work.

There is also the closet full of scrolls in Wanda's torture chamber, which we actually saw.
(Need more torture time, but the prisoner is out of HP?)

Given those, I figure GK has plenty of healing available for Wanda to be given. With Sizemore there to protect her, she shouldn't get croaked before it can be applied.

[NobodySpecial]

Okay first you imply that Ansom hated Saline for designating Stanley heir. Then you say that Ansom didnt know Stanley was heir.

So either Ansom overthrew a kingdom that to his knowledge was functioning within perfectly normal Royal parameters for no reason or he deliberately put Stanley on the throne.

Nope. Doesn't fit at all.

Actually, The first statement doesn't necessarily contradict the second. It's not that Ansom didn't know Stanley was heir. I ran into time constraints, and ended the post before I was able to finish, sorry about that.

Ansom hated Stanley before Saline died - after all, Stanley had an Arkentool and was attuned to it and was Chief Warlord for Saline, all of which happened after he popped as a lowly infantry unit. For Ansom, this had to be a double slap at the caste system, and one which would get worse at whatever time he learned Stanley was designated heir. I think it happened after Saline's death, but either way it works, because of the timeline.

When Saline died if he had no heir, then Stanley should have been disbanded and could be dealt with at Ansom's leisure, which is another reason Ansom would have to remove Saline. (Control of the best defensive city on Erfworld, that is.)

At any rate, the day Saline died, the only thing Ansom could have known was that Stanley went raiding - he had no knowledge that the kingdom of FAQ was within one move of GK, he didn't even know it existed. It would have been a perfect time to remove Saline, while his Chief Warlord was away. As it turns out, it was being made heir which was the only reason Stanley was able to come back next turn. As to what Ansom could offer the gobwins, who knows? Shmuckers? Something Stanley couldn't offer? Unimportant. The key for me is Stanley could NOT turn on Saline (Duty - Klog 9.) But Ansom could sure form an alliance with the gobwins, and it makes more sense than Charlie, who never showed an interest in GK until after he took Ansom's Shmuckers.

The one saving grace to Ansom of Stanley's ascension is that it allowed him to build up a large coalition. Like Parson says, 'they like to gang up on non-royals'. I did make one mistake, though. Gobwins are not Stanley's units, they're still in a long-term alliance with him. (Klog 10.)

Basically, I put Ansom at the top of the 'Who killed Saline?' list because he stood to gain something he had no access to otherwise, while Stanley was next in line of succession and had a rule preventing him from killing Saline. Wanda's a close second to my mind, ironically...

[SteveMB]

Ansom hated Stanley before Saline died - after all, Stanley had an Arkentool and was attuned to it and was Chief Warlord for Saline, all of which happened after he popped as a lowly infantry unit. For Ansom, this had to be a double slap at the caste system, and one which would get worse at whatever time he learned Stanley was designated heir.

I still think your theory is a pretty long stretch, but I'll mention one point in favor of it. It's possible that someone who is highly punctilious about the importance of royal privileges and responsibilities would be highly offended when another royal did something that undermined or trivialized the importance of royalty. Ansom might have viewed Saline's selection of a commoner heir as doing just that -- technically within his prerogatives, but something that is simply not done by a true royal.

[Aquillion]

while Stanley was next in line of succession and had a rule preventing him from killing Saline.

Uh, no. If there was a rule preventing him from killing Saline, nobody would be able to rationally accuse him of killing Saline. The fact that Ansom and Vinnie discussed that as a rational possibility proves that it is possible.

We've already had these mechanics explained to us. Units have a loyalty score, which is checked to see if they're allowed to betray their masters.

...your analysis also glossed over the most important thing, and to me, it is the fatal flaw that simply removes Ansom from serious consideration entirely: In order to accept even the remote possibility of what you're suggesting, we'd have to assume that everything we have seen from Ansom in the entire time he's been in the comic has been a lie. We'd have to assume that he has been deliberately and knowingly deceiving his oldest friend -- someone who he's had no trouble confessing his most embarrassing self-doubts to at other points in the comic, someone who has made it clear that he will support Ansom under all circumstances regardless.

We have seen not a single hint of duplicity from Ansom in the entire strip. None. I challenge you to point to a single page in which you can prove that he is making a deliberate and knowing lie. Dutybound? Yes. Stick-up-his-ass? Sure, even Vinnie implied it. But deceptive? No. You're describing the actions of a character who bears absolutely no relation to the one we've been introduced to.

Of course, we're also presuming that it was Stanley who did all this stuff as leader of GK, rather than Saline giving him orders to, all while we're presuming that Saline gave his seal of approval to a unit whose Loyalty and Duty scores were so low he would commit regicide.

Loyalty is a hidden stat (and Duty isn't a score at all, it's a game mechanic.) Saline had no way to know what a backstabber Stanley was when he promoted him.

Now, let's talk sanity here. Whoever killed Saline must fit the following criteria:

* They have to have had a secure channel to communicate with the Gobwins. Note that Ansom has no Thinkamancers (he has to use hats or Charlie's services), disqualifying him.

* They would have to have been known and at least somewhat trusted by the Gobwins -- it is highly unlikely that a stranger or foreigner could've convinced them to break a longstanding alliance. Only someone who knew them well would know what buttons to push, what to offer, and so forth. Again, Ansom is disqualified.

* They would have to have a detailed, specific knowledge and understanding of events and politics at Gobwin Knob. This is necessary to know when to order the Gobwins to attack; it's necessary if they want to derive any benefit from the attack; and it's necessary if you expect them to have a realistic motive. Ansom has no scouts or recon, and no lookamancers. This disqualifies him again (indeed, there's no particular reason why he would even have known of Stanley's existence prior to his ascension to overlord. He didn't know anything about Parson.)

If you want to reject Stanley as too obvious, under the assumption that the authors are setting up a shocking swerve, Wanda is a perfectly natural choice -- she had the motive and the capability, and she understood politics in Gobwin Knob possibly better than anyone else. The only assumption you have to make for her is that the mission just before Slately's death wasn't in Faq (otherwise she wouldn't have been present -- although even that could be worked around.) She would have been known to the Gobwins, and has been shown as an expert at manipulating others to her ends; we've seen that she can mind-control them very easily, and they've been shown speaking respectfully to her. If she had to do it remotely, she is capable at Thinkamancy. She has also been shown as devious and deceptive, perfectly willing to deceive people around her to her to accomplish her goals (something, again, that we have absolutely not been shown about Ansom.) Wanda has a direct and obvious motive that does not require any sort of speculation, guesswork, or assumptions (beyond perhaps the somewhat obvious point that she probably wasn't as powerful an 'adviser' to King Saline) -- we can see, directly, that she is Stanley's right-hand woman right now, and she clearly has a huge amount of power through him.

Stanley is even simpler. He indisputably had the motive. He indisputably had the access. He is plainly respected by the Gobwins. We have been specifically told of the mechanics that would allow him to do it; I don't know why you keep trying to bring up Duty when the fact that units are capable of betrayal has been practically hammered to death in the comic.

Why do you rate Ansom above Wanda and Stanley, given these things?

Your 'motive' for Ansom is a shoddy patchwork of guesses -- you assume that he knew about Stanley before his ascension to overlord, that he knew Stanley had and was attuned to the Arkenhammer, possibly (I can't even track your arguments, they change so fast) that he knew Stanley was heir, or didn't know, you assume that he objected to this enough to commit murder over it. These are simply not as convincing as the obvious promotion Wanda and Stanley got.

But that shoddy motive is the strongest part of your argument. Everything else is... well, there isn't anything else, is there? We know that both Wanda and Stanley had access, knowledge, and connections. From what we know, Ansom didn't have access, knowledge, or connections -- in fact, we've been specifically informed that he lacks lookamancers, and specifically shown that he lacks thinkamancers.

[fendrin]

How can we hope to answer that question in some objective manner? Well, as it happens each of those groups faces off against the exact same force: Ansom. The results are decisive. Wanda outperformed the zombies by about as much as it is possible to outperform something. The only possible wild card is that the Arkenpliers are known to be effective against the uncroaked. But aside from herself, every unit in Wanda's force is also an uncroaked, and they STILL trounced Ansom.

You can talk all you want about how Wanda has special undocumented powers that tilt the balance, but that is nothing but pure speculation. Show some actual evidence in the comics if you want to convince me.

'What have you done to it?'
Wanda clearly did something to neutralize the offensive capabilities of the 'pliers.

Unclear. Jillian and Vinny know Stanley escaped, and they direction in which he escaped. Given that, it's easy to guess he'd head back to GK. We don't know if they've passed this information on to anyone yet, but Charlie's thinkogram mastery makes it possible.

Jillian and Vinny did not have any reason to tell Charlie anything if he contacted them (he did just screw them over).

Until this new alliance that bothers you so much was formed, no one had the ability to request a thinkagram, either. So Charlie does not make it possible. We also have seen no evidence of Vinny et al having a hat (and why would they, they are Jetstone property after all, and they believed they could communicate through Charlie).

Neither Ansom nor Charlie have any reason to think that GK reinforcements are on their way. Remember, Stanley ran. Why would they expect him to return? Either Jillian and co. defeat him, or he runs away to start a new side. Neither option implies reinforcements for GK anytime soon.

But that's beside the point. Charlie didn't think there was any way for Parson to save himself last time, and yet Parson did so without Stanley. Why would Charlie assume his guess must be better than Parson's this time? It seems to me that, now that he's seen what Parson is capable of, he'd want to take Parson down ASAP. On Charlie's turn on day 5, Parson had had no turns with which to prepare his defense against Charlie's forces. If he waits until Ansom's turn on day 6, Parson will have had 2 turns to prepare. That strikes me as a little laid back, even for Charlie.

Ah, but if Parson DOES have more tricks, how is Charlie not better off by letting the RCC suffer the effects of them? As far as Charlie is aware, Parson has no escape route, and limited resources. As stated above, Charlie has no reason to expect reinforcements, so he has plenty of time. Let the RCC take the losses, Charlie will get what he wants either way. As far as Charlie is concerned, this new alliance is a win-win situation. It's like getting to buy stuff for yourself with other people's money: why not, even if the stuff will cost more?

I'm not sure who posted this exactly, but... turn shifting for hit-and-run tactics WOULD work. If A went first, B went second and C went third, A could at some point ally with C. Then the next day A could pull off a hit-and-run, and break the alliance with C. Then A heals at dawn, and the hit-and-run units where never in (extra) danger.

True, but in doing so, they allow B to do the same thing. Let's look at the turn sequence. Round 1 is prior to the A&C alliance, and round 3 is the turn after.

Round 1...| Round 2 | Round 3
A | B | C | B | A&C | A | B | C

Taking C out of the equation (as they are not directly involved with the conflict)...

Round 1 | Round 2 | Round 3
.A |. B |. B |. A |. A |. B

You can see that B would get two consecutive turns before A does. Seems pretty obvious what would cause that, and would be a great time to set up a trap (or just withdraw once troops far enough back that it would take two turns for A to reach them, thus nullifying the advantage).

Also, C would be risking the wrath of B. I mean, if A could beat B, then A would not need to resort to those sorts of tricks. Thus B must have a reasonable chance of victory. In that case, B might start attacking C for helping A... and it is almost never a good idea to get involved in a war that has nothing to do with you. The exception, of course, is mercenaries.

It's rather interesting that Webinar was so suspicious of Ansom's trust in Jillian, when Webinar is fighting alongside his own girlfriend.

To be fair, Dora is from the same faction, and does not have a history of being repeatedly captured and 'escaping'. I think those are what bothers Webinar about Jillian.

I also think he is significantly bothered by the way Ansom overlooks those potential security issues because of his feelings for Jillian.

Of course, we also can't forget that, to paraphrase Vinny, Webby's got a gump up his rump.

[Quimper]

Prediction: The healing of wanda will have something to do with Sizemore + Flowerpower/Hippiemancy (Herbal healing?).

Wish: For Stanley to kill off RCC's siege now that they aren't protected by any other fliers than Ansom. Perhaps retreat to a safe distance for healing and return to GK when Charlies contract has "timed out" (if it is indeed 2 turns). Perhaps a bonuseffect of Jillian being angry with Charlie "abandoning" the alliance at the choakepoint (-we HAD him!!! If you hadn't bailed out!??)

Question: How did anson get his carpet back? It's clearly stated that you cannot go from one castle zone to another unless its your turn (or you are the defender). Were also reminded about that in 134:13. Yet the archons are able to collect Ansoms carpet from the airspace and give it to him in the wall zone. Ansom himself (the one who can actually move this turn) wouldn't be able to collect the carpet going from the outer walls to the airspace since he was not able to fly anymore.

Also, the archons cannot move to Ansoms zone, yet he can still sign a contract in the flight zone (where the archon holding it is)?

Conclusion. It's possible to interact/move in the airspace without the power to fly, making it's rules hazy.

Sidenote: Does this guy (91:4) look like Sizemore to you? If it had said "clerics" instead of "clerks" it would have been a great explanation of Sizemores repulsion towards killing (as in "thou shalt not kill")...

[DevilDan]

There's "alliance" and there's "fighting on the same side." I'm sure that Charlie is "joining" the RCC again, but wouldn't it also be possible for Charlie to stay as his own side, thereby keeping his turn ahead of GK's, while still agreeing to work together with the RCC? Charlie and Ansom would be foolish not to consider this possibility and its potential advantages to moving before GK's turn, even if it is only with the Archons.

[SteveMB]

There's "alliance" and there's "fighting on the same side." I'm sure that Charlie is "joining" the RCC again, but wouldn't it also be possible for Charlie to stay as his own side, thereby keeping his turn ahead of GK's, while still agreeing to work together with the RCC? Charlie and Ansom would be foolish not to consider this possibility and its potential advantages to moving before GK's turn, even if it is only with the Archons.

As I noted, the results the last time Ansom made an arrangement with Charlie that was less formal than a full-fledged alliance were not such as to encourage repetition....

Sidenote: Does this guy (91:4) look like Sizemore to you? If it had said "clerics" instead of "clerks" it would have been a great explanation of Sizemores repulsion towards killing (as in "thou shalt not kill")...

Not particularly -- they both look like big-nosed bald nebbish types, but I don't see any reason to think that they might be the same person (even leaving out that the Cast Page identifies Sizemore as part of the same Plaid tribe as Stanley).

[Tredrick]

Considering the way Charlie changes terms on everyone at the last minute, I imagine the next great alliance will be against him.

[NobodySpecial]

Uh, no. If there was a rule preventing him from killing Saline, nobody would be able to rationally accuse him of killing Saline. The fact that Ansom and Vinnie discussed that as a rational possibility proves that it is possible.

Well, technically, Ansom called it a certainty and Vinnie a qualified maybe.

We've already had these mechanics explained to us. Units have a loyalty score, which is checked to see if they're allowed to betray their masters.

And Stanley's loyalty score is...?

...your analysis also glossed over the most important thing, and to me, it is the fatal flaw that simply removes Ansom from serious consideration entirely: In order to accept even the remote possibility of what you're suggesting, we'd have to assume that everything we have seen from Ansom in the entire time he's been in the comic has been a lie. We'd have to assume that he has been deliberately and knowingly deceiving his oldest friend -- someone who he's had no trouble confessing his most embarrassing self-doubts to at other points in the comic, someone who has made it clear that he will support Ansom under all circumstances regardless.

Have you ever lied to a friend? Ever lied to a family member? Ever lied about something that you found important to you to someone who would disagree with you about it?

For that matter, have we REALLY seen Ansom confess embarrassing self-doubts to his henchman? "No comment, Vinny." "Vinny - I hereby revoke your permission to ask me difficult questions.". Nah, not really, from my view. Ansom himself has admitted that he views himself on a higher plane than 'those of lesser station' like a Count.

We have seen not a single hint of duplicity from Ansom in the entire strip. None. I challenge you to point to a single page in which you can prove that he is making a deliberate and knowing lie. Dutybound? Yes. Stick-up-his-ass? Sure, even Vinnie implied it. But deceptive? No. You're describing the actions of a character who bears absolutely no relation to the one we've been introduced to.

You haven't seen a single hint of duplicity from most of the cast in the entire strip, either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course, there's at LEAST one strip where he's making a statement no one believes, either....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0089.html

Loyalty is a hidden stat (and Duty isn't a score at all, it's a game mechanic.) Saline had no way to know what a backstabber Stanley was when he promoted him.

I note under Duty it says Commanders (and Chief Warlords more strongly) can't hide information or CONSPIRE against the Ruler. Or is Stanley immune?

Now, let's talk sanity here. Whoever killed Saline must fit the following criteria:

* They have to have had a secure channel to communicate with the Gobwins. Note that Ansom has no Thinkamancers (he has to use hats or Charlie's services), disqualifying him.

Gobwins have no capitals and no cities. There's no negative proof that he couldn't have contacted them without going into GK, and there certainly must be a way for gobwins to communicate with each other.

* They would have to have been known and at least somewhat trusted by the Gobwins -- it is highly unlikely that a stranger or foreigner could've convinced them to break a longstanding alliance. Only someone who knew them well would know what buttons to push, what to offer, and so forth. Again, Ansom is disqualified.

How so, specifically? Are you saying he has no knowledge of gobwins, or only that he has no knowledge of gobwins that we're aware of?

* They would have to have a detailed, specific knowledge and understanding of events and politics at Gobwin Knob. This is necessary to know when to order the Gobwins to attack; it's necessary if they want to derive any benefit from the attack; and it's necessary if you expect them to have a realistic motive. Ansom has no scouts or recon, and no lookamancers. This disqualifies him again (indeed, there's no particular reason why he would even have known of Stanley's existence prior to his ascension to overlord. He didn't know anything about Parson.)

He has scouts.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html

And as the klog says, scouting and reporting are Natural Thinkamancy.

If you want to reject Stanley as too obvious, under the assumption that the authors are setting up a shocking swerve, Wanda is a perfectly natural choice -- she had the motive and the capability, and she understood politics in Gobwin Knob possibly better than anyone else. The only assumption you have to make for her is that the mission just before Slately's death wasn't in Faq (otherwise she wouldn't have been present -- although even that could be worked around.) She would have been known to the Gobwins, and has been shown as an expert at manipulating others to her ends; we've seen that she can mind-control them very easily, and they've been shown speaking respectfully to her. If she had to do it remotely, she is capable at Thinkamancy.

Which is why I think she's second most likely behind Ansom.

She has also been shown as devious and deceptive, perfectly willing to deceive people around her to her to accomplish her goals (something, again, that we have absolutely not been shown about Ansom.) Wanda has a direct and obvious motive that does not require any sort of speculation, guesswork, or assumptions (beyond perhaps the somewhat obvious point that she probably wasn't as powerful an 'adviser' to King Saline) -- we can see, directly, that she is Stanley's right-hand woman right now, and she clearly has a huge amount of power through him.

I'm curious as to where she's deceived anyone, however. Can you point out a lie for me? I must have missed it.

Stanley is even simpler. He indisputably had the motive. He indisputably had the access. He is plainly respected by the Gobwins. We have been specifically told of the mechanics that would allow him to do it; I don't know why you keep trying to bring up Duty when the fact that units are capable of betrayal has been practically hammered to death in the comic.

Can you point to those mechanics? I must have missed them, but I'll need a link. Especially since Wanda's spell that she guaranteed would allow GK to keep Jillian as a resource instead blew up when she was merely offered the chance to avoid battle with wounded dwagons, which was characterized by Wanda as not being nearly as bad as attacking her ally. She clearly doesn't have a high Loyalty score as her self-admitted Banhammer confession shows.

Why do you rate Ansom above Wanda and Stanley, given these things?

Your 'motive' for Ansom is a shoddy patchwork of guesses -- you assume that he knew about Stanley before his ascension to overlord, that he knew Stanley had and was attuned to the Arkenhammer, possibly (I can't even track your arguments, they change so fast) that he knew Stanley was heir, or didn't know, you assume that he objected to this enough to commit murder over it. These are simply not as convincing as the obvious promotion Wanda and Stanley got.

Do you really think that a Warlord who attuned to a Tool of the Titans would not get at least gossiped about at the very least, and at most looked at as a real danger? You claim Ansom knows that Stanley is a clear danger to him in other posts, you know.

As to why I rate Ansom higher than Wanda? Because he has resources Wanda can't touch.

As to why I rate Ansom higher than Stanley? Because of Duty and because Stanley was already in line to rule. His ruler had no problem with him gaining the Arkentools that we can see and made him heir. Why would he screw that up with the possibility that the gobwin assault could fail?

But that shoddy motive is the strongest part of your argument. Everything else is... well, there isn't anything else, is there? We know that both Wanda and Stanley had access, knowledge, and connections. From what we know, Ansom didn't have access, knowledge, or connections -- in fact, we've been specifically informed that he lacks lookamancers, and specifically shown that he lacks thinkamancers.

The current campaign != the whole of the war. Perhaps he had some and lost them in battles. Perhaps his ruler wouldn't let him have any. I repeat: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Now perhaps you'd like to dial back your tone a bit before you run afoul of the 'Cut the flaming' warning on the boards. Disagree with me; fine, but there's little need to be insulting with someone who hasn't said boo to you.

[dr pepper]

Prediction: The healing of wanda will have something to do with Sizemore + Flowerpower/Hippiemancy (Herbal healing?).

Dirtamancy + Hippiemancy = Shrooms.

[DevilDan]

Spells can be packaged, as we saw with the Ultimate Warlord spell and as we see here. It's not unreasonable to suppose that GK could have some stockpiled healomancy spells that Maggie or even Sizemore could use to stabilize Wanda.

[brob]

I note these five facts here: 1. Parson, facing impossible odds, keeps almost pulling off improbable tactical coups. Not enough to win, but enough to keep fighting. 2. Parson is disadvantaged, relative to native Erflings, by not knowing all the rules of the game. 3. People in this forum are frustrated by Parson almost but not quite achieving tactical victories, and frustrated by having to learn Erf's rules as they go. 4. The strip is very good at making you feel what the protagonist feels. 5. I can count to five.

[Aquillion]

Well, technically, Ansom called it a certainty and Vinnie a qualified maybe.

And Stanley's loyalty score is...?

Irrelevant. The point is, Loyalty and Duty in Erfworld are only more mechanically-rigid than the ones in the real world; as they've been described, they are not any more reliable. Just like real-world loyalty, there are people who are backstabbers and people who are loyal to their leaders.

Have you ever lied to a friend? Ever lied to a family member? Ever lied about something that you found important to you to someone who would disagree with you about it?

For that matter, have we REALLY seen Ansom confess embarrassing self-doubts to his henchman? "No comment, Vinny." "Vinny - I hereby revoke your permission to ask me difficult questions.". Nah, not really, from my view. Ansom himself has admitted that he views himself on a higher plane than 'those of lesser station' like a Count.

Those words are an embarrassing admission (and the last one is him joking around with an old friend, since Vinnie continues to ask him embarrassing questions.) Ansom could easily have lied there; instead, he essentially admitted Vinnie was correct.

You haven't seen a single hint of duplicity from most of the cast in the entire strip, either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course, there's at LEAST one strip where he's making a statement no one believes, either....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0089.html

Which statement? He specifically refuses to lie to Vinnie's question at the end.

I note under Duty it says Commanders (and Chief Warlords more strongly) can't hide information or CONSPIRE against the Ruler. Or is Stanley immune?

Just above that, it lists loyalty as allowing you to double-deal when given the chance. Stanley himself is extremely paranoid about his followers, and accuses Parson of possible treason when he cuts and runs; this shows that Stanley not only knows that it is possible for a chief warlord to betray his master, but is intimately familiar with it. And, again; if it were simply impossible for a chief warlord to roll a loyalty check and assassinate their leader, nobody would be discussing it. It would be absurd to even bring up. The fact that Ansom can mention it to Vinnie at all shows that it's possible.

Gobwins have no capitals and no cities. There's no negative proof that he couldn't have contacted them without going into GK, and there certainly must be a way for gobwins to communicate with each other.

Yes, but again, this is completely random speculation -- you're inventing things to make your pet theory work better. There is already a method for contacting people; that's what people use thinkamancy and hats for.

How so, specifically? Are you saying he has no knowledge of gobwins, or only that he has no knowledge of gobwins that we're aware of?

None that we're aware of. Again, the point isn't that your theory is impossible -- the point is that you're relying on complete speculation. There's nothing wrong with random dart-throwing speculation, but it's silly to pretend that it can hold up to things we've actually been told and shown.

We know that both Stanley and Wanda had the means, motive, and opportunity. We've been specifically told and shown, repeatedly, that units can betray their leaders; we've been shown that both have the respect and loyalty of the Gobwins, and the ability to manipulate them; and both had an obvious motive that requires no guesswork to full in.

He has scouts.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html

And as the klog says, scouting and reporting are Natural Thinkamancy.

You are suggesting that he had a scout walk right up into Gobwin Knob and make the offer personally? Keep in mind, he would still have to have a way of knowing the exact situation in Gobwin Knob to know to even make the offer; he would have to have something to offer the Gobwins (and know that they'd want it). Again, you're just making stuff up to fit your theory. There's nothing wrong with that, but we've been shown outright several scenarios that require no real guesswork.

Which is why I think she's second most likely behind Ansom.

I'm curious as to where she's deceived anyone, however. Can you point out a lie for me? I must have missed it.

She's too good at it to have to lie outright, but she's deceiving the people around her constantly. Here, she is outright deceiving Stanley by stating that she is going along with his will while attempting to subvert it ("If that is your wish...") Note that she isn't trying to convince him, even, just distract him and keep him from doing anything until Parson is done.

Here, she specifically lays out how to deceive Stanley by making him think that her plans are his ideas.

Here, she is using magic specifically to deceive an underling and prevent word of her relationship with Jillian from getting out.

There's others, but that should give you the general idea.

Can you point to those mechanics? I must have missed them, but I'll need a link. Especially since Wanda's spell that she guaranteed would allow GK to keep Jillian as a resource instead blew up when she was merely offered the chance to avoid battle with wounded dwagons, which was characterized by Wanda as not being nearly as bad as attacking her ally. She clearly doesn't have a high Loyalty score as her self-admitted Banhammer confession shows.

Loyalty. I'm not sure what your statement about Jillian has to do with anything -- first, we don't know whether loyalty applies to resistance to magical spells (which are supposed to be capable of modifying loyalty.) Yes, Jillian's magically-induced loyalty to Wanda failed, but what does that prove? Second, Jillian's problem never had anything to do with loyalty; she's a mercenary, not a Jetstone unit, and constant statements Vinnie, Ansom, and Webinar have made it clear that Jillian is capable of breaking her alliance with Ansom and going off on her own any time she feels like it. She has no mechanical duty or loyalty to Ansom at all -- what she has is that she's in love with him. We've seen no indication that that's stat-based.

Do you really think that a Warlord who attuned to a Tool of the Titans would not get at least gossiped about at the very least, and at most looked at as a real danger? You claim Ansom knows that Stanley is a clear danger to him in other posts, you know.

As to why I rate Ansom higher than Wanda? Because he has resources Wanda can't touch.

Speculation again. You're inventing mechanics and resources simply to suit your pet theory. We have not been shown any method for obtaining the kind of information you're talking about -- no rumor mills, no lookamancers or thinkamancers under Ansom, no connection -- however tenuous -- between him and Gobwin Knob. Nothing. Wanda has enough Thinkamancy to pull this off herself; for the events in question, her resources vastly outstrip Ansom's, because they're far more relevant.

As to why I rate Ansom higher than Stanley? Because of Duty and because Stanley was already in line to rule. His ruler had no problem with him gaining the Arkentools that we can see and made him heir. Why would he screw that up with the possibility that the gobwin assault could fail?

Because he's Stanley. This one should not need explanation. If he was more cautious or less egomanical, he wouldn't have half the world out to kill him right now.

The current campaign != the whole of the war. Perhaps he had some and lost them in battles. Perhaps his ruler wouldn't let him have any. I repeat: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Speculation again. The point is, Stanley and Wanda don't require that kind of speculation -- all Stanley needs is one failed loyalty check, and all Wanda needs is... nothing. She's a captured caster, so we know for a fact she has low loyalty; she could have done it easily at any time, no guesswork or speculation about resources or motives or knowledge needed.

[Aevii]

I think that, whether or not Wanda actually wanted Ansom to touch her with the Arkenpliers because she thought she'd attune to them, Ansom believed that Wanda thought so, and that she might be right. In effect, Wanda was daring him to put the matter to the test, and see if the Arkentools rendered yet another thumbs-down to Ansom's worldview.

And Ansom simply wasn't willing to risk that. And he flew away, a flimsy rationalization on his lips.

I figure Wanda actually attuned with the Arkenpliers but had them taken from her. In any case, I strongly suspect it is not Jill she is talking about when she brings up what was taken from her.

[jazz1m]

Gotta agree with brob here, I think the major reason that Parson is losing despite having superior tactics than Ansom is that there's no way he knows more about game mechanics than Ansom (who comes popped with all of that info). Some one mentioned earlier that Parson's downfall is because he doesn't have the people skills (or rather the people reading skills) that Ansom has. I'd say that Parson has had no other choice than to rely on his very limited knowledge and the suggestions that actual erfworlders have given him (i.e. Jillian couldn't break Wanda's suggestion spell). Not to mention the fact that he's still outnumbered now that the archons are allied to the RCC.

Predictions:
As people have mentioned, I imagine the allying of Charlescomm and RCC will now give Stanley enough time to reach Gobwin Knob during his turn. It's been about 2 turns since he left and one turn has already passed so I imagine that he should be back just in time to get some archons although I wouldn't be wholly surprised if he showed up late to the party. I do think that Gobwin Knob will fall and I'm pretty sure Charlie will be the one to get all the spoils of the war. Heck if I were a mercenary I would try to get all the good stuff for saving Ansom's keister: like all the casters (maybe not Maggie since Charlie is already a super powerful Thinkamancer), artifacts, special objects (sword, mathamancy bracelety, etc.) whatever is left of the treasury, and of course Parson, but I'm just greedy...

[teratorn]

Unaroyal was probably the biggest force in the RCC at the beginning of this turn. There are only about 1000 living Jetstone troops. Parson's army is bigger than Ansom's own troops. Jetstone alone could have taken GK the turn before. This is already sort of a win to Parson.

I'm with the people who think Jetstone (but maybe not lead by Ansom) erased the Croatons, and that Wanda's motivations may lie there.

I read the two last pages and thought as I would play them on a pen and paper RPG, and it felt consistent. Maybe I'm one of the few who thinks of everything on the strip like if it truly were a game.

I still don't see problems with timing, I tend to see things like "time" as "rounds" in a RPG game, so that actions don't follow the "real world" pattern although they are very close. In fact, I'm surprised that the authors play that aspect so clearly, including Ansom reading the contract and the fliers taking time to reach Ansom (they needed different rounds to leave Wanda and reassemble, dive, and land).

Even the golems taking time to reach makes sense to me. In terms of rounds:

. Archons blast Wanda and Ansom asks for carpet,
. Ansom gets carpet, Parson curses but takes time to react
. Ansom dives, Maggie tells Sizemore to assemble his stack of golems.
. Probably another round needed for Ansom to dive and Sizemore to move his troops
. Ansom grabs the pliers. Sizemore and the golems reach Wanda's position.
. Ansom hesitates and golems erupt.

My biggest surprise in this thread is the argument about Ansom surviving the fall with little injury and Wanda being nearly dead... He's a warlord with a ton of hitpoints! They are not humans with similar builds.

[Lord Zentei]

My biggest surprise in this thread is the argument about Ansom surviving the fall with little injury and Wanda being nearly dead... He's a warlord with a ton of hitpoints! They are not humans with similar builds.

He also fell onto the wall rather than onto the ground, so the distance and hence presumably the damage was much less anyway.

Perhaps she did not block all the effects of the Archon blast either, despite her bubble shield.

[Lamech]

My biggest surprise in this thread is the argument about Ansom surviving the fall with little injury and Wanda being nearly dead... He's a warlord with a ton of hitpoints! They are not humans with similar builds.

You could be right, and in fact probably are but I want to through out a couple other ideas...

Erfworld could have the type of battle mechanics that were kills or "disables" can happen from a lucky shot (or fall in this case) even if it is a weak attack on a really powerful unit... perhaps like Manpower.
So maybe Wanda just twisted her spine, and Ansom didn't...

And to toss out a third possiblity perhaps Ansom's "flying-gear" is donned for a reason when he uses the carpet? Like not painfully dying from otherwise leathal falls.