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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    And to toss out a third possiblity perhaps Ansom's "flying-gear" is donned for a reason when he uses the carpet? Like not painfully dying from otherwise leathal falls.
    That is also quite likely. In particular his helmet. I wonder if the fact it fell means it's not effective any more
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Irrelevant. The point is, Loyalty and Duty in Erfworld are only more mechanically-rigid than the ones in the real world; as they've been described, they are not any more reliable. Just like real-world loyalty, there are people who are backstabbers and people who are loyal to their leaders.

    Those words are an embarrassing admission (and the last one is him joking around with an old friend, since Vinnie continues to ask him embarrassing questions.) Ansom could easily have lied there; instead, he essentially admitted Vinnie was correct.

    Which statement? He specifically refuses to lie to Vinnie's question at the end.
    "I trust Commander Zamussels completely." That was obviously not true.

    And Stanley's Loyalty score is highly relevant, since your only contention that I'm wrong is based off of speculation that he failed a Loyalty check. If you're not going to allow me speculation based off of incomplete information, you shouldn't do it either.

    Yes, but again, this is completely random speculation -- you're inventing things to make your pet theory work better. There is already a method for contacting people; that's what people use thinkamancy and hats for.None that we're aware of. [...]

    Again, the point isn't that your theory is impossible -- the point is that you're relying on complete speculation. There's nothing wrong with random dart-throwing speculation, but it's silly to pretend that it can hold up to things we've actually been told and shown.

    We know that both Stanley and Wanda had the means, motive, and opportunity. We've been specifically told and shown, repeatedly, that units can betray their leaders; we've been shown that both have the respect and loyalty of the Gobwins, and the ability to manipulate them; and both had an obvious motive that requires no guesswork to full in.
    You're relying on complete speculation as well, as is everyone who isn't the writer, you know. Also, I don't see you taking this umbrage with the people who are using Charlescomm as the ultimate solution to all the problems of Erfworld, even to the point of speculating that Charlie killed Saline. Also, most of what I've postulated is absolutely grounded in provided information - Ansom hates Stanley. Ansom hates non-royals and believes he has a divine right to rule them. Ansom desires the death of Stanley and to posess GK.

    Loyalty. I'm not sure what your statement about Jillian has to do with anything -- first, we don't know whether loyalty applies to resistance to magical spells (which are supposed to be capable of modifying loyalty.) Yes, Jillian's magically-induced loyalty to Wanda failed, but what does that prove? Second, Jillian's problem never had anything to do with loyalty; she's a mercenary, not a Jetstone unit, and constant statements Vinnie, Ansom, and Webinar have made it clear that Jillian is capable of breaking her alliance with Ansom and going off on her own any time she feels like it. She has no mechanical duty or loyalty to Ansom at all -- what she has is that she's in love with him. We've seen no indication that that's stat-based.
    Think closely about what you're saying. Jillian is NOT Chief Warlord to Ansom or even a unit under his control, so the effects of Duty and Loyalty are less intense on her, she has a self-described poor Loyalty score (she hated Saline), and Loyalty can be modified by the spell....but yet, when given an indirect opportunity to merely hinder Ansom, she instead broke the spell. Now add up the Chief Warlord factor and that Stanley probably wasn't being magically influenced, and you're still postulating that he's MORE likely to do something much worse than what Jillian refused to do? Possible, but highly unlikely.

    Speculation again. You're inventing mechanics and resources simply to suit your pet theory.
    Um, no. Ansom is Chief Warlord of Jetsone with over 2900 units at the start of this campaign; Jillian is a mercenary with 21 units. Ansom has several magical items that we've seen that Jillian has no access to by herself. That's demonstrated - do you doubt that he has other resources to hand?

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    eek Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Poor Wanda. :(
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    I shouldn't get involved in this, but I'm getting annoyed with it. Let me start by saying I doubt Ansom was behind the Gobwin revolt. It just doesn't seem his style. For that matter, I'm not sure why everyone assumes that someone WAS behind it. It is perfectly possible that it was entirely a Gobwin idea. That could be why there aren't any Gobwin warlords: Stanley just doesn't trust them enough. If someone was behind it though, I would put odds on Wanda (even if, or maybe even especially if, she was not part of GK at the time... heck, then she wouldn't have even had to overcome her Loyalty), then Stanley. After Stanley Charlie seems likely, and then maybe Don King. Ansom is just too full of the nobility thing to use underhanded tactics. He seems much more the sort to raise a huge army and get thousands killed rather than arranging an assassination. You know, kind of like what he did to get rid of Stanley.

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    And Stanley's Loyalty score is highly relevant, since your only contention that I'm wrong is based off of speculation that he failed a Loyalty check. If you're not going to allow me speculation based off of incomplete information, you shouldn't do it either.
    Ah, but no one doubts that Stanley has a loyalty score. We know he has one (though I suppose it is irrelevant now that he is his own overlord). What would be the point of having one if it couldn't be tested. Not knowing the number is not the same as not knowing whether or not he has a score. We have not, however, seen any evidence whatsoever that Jetstone has the resources necessary to incite a revolt. Not one mention of having casters. I'm sorry, but messengers/scouts just wouldn't cut it. Either he would have had to send a warlord to talk to a Gobwin warlord or else one side would have auto-attacked the other. If they formed an alliance even for one round of discussions, Saline would have noticed that the gobwins were no longer allied with him... and it seems likely to be mechanically impossible to be allied with two non-allied sides (it would cause some real weird funkiness with the turn sequence rules).

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    You're relying on complete speculation as well, as is everyone who isn't the writer, you know.
    Speculation based on the comic is not total speculation. You are speculating that things exist simply because it is possible that they exist. Yes, Jetstone may have a secret cabal of thinkamancers that work to destabilize enemy factions, and secretly have croakamancers galore that form a secret army of uncroaked in the capital city. Oh, and it's possible that the stick in Ansom's rump that Vinny implied existed is a Rod of Gobwin Control that he stole from Saline. Are any of these things likely, based on what has been revealed in the comic? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    Also, I don't see you taking this umbrage with the people who are using Charlescomm as the ultimate solution to all the problems of Erfworld, even to the point of speculating that Charlie killed Saline.
    I won't speak for anyone else, but I find Charlie to be far more likely that Ansom to have incited the Gobwin revolt. We know he has the means, we know he has motives, and we know that he's willing to play dirty. Ansom might have the means, might have had a motive at the time, and might be secretly willing to fight in an underhanded way. So really, which is more likely?

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    Also, most of what I've postulated is absolutely grounded in provided information - Ansom hates Stanley. Ansom hates non-royals and believes he has a divine right to rule them. Ansom desires the death of Stanley and to posess GK.
    Yes, he hates Stanley, but did he hate Stanley before the fall of Saline IV? Maybe. Yes he feels Stanley should be ruled by a royal. But Stanley WAS ruled by a royal. Yes he desires the death of Stanley, and maybe he wants to possess GK for himself (but we have no evidence of it). Maybe he felt that way before Saline was croaked, but we have no evidence of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    ...Stanley probably wasn't being magically influenced...
    Based on what? I see no reason to think that. I wouldn't be surprised if he was being magically influenced now. In fact, I would be surprised if Wanda hadn't at least tried to magically influence him (she's used her body to influence him, I can't imagine her not starting with magic). Given that Wanda is a very powerful 'caster and Stanley is, well, not bright (I think he and Jillian are having a stupid contest... I'm not sure who's losing), does it seem likely that Wanda would have failed in her casting?

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    Um, no. Ansom is Chief Warlord of Jetsone with over 2900 units at the start of this campaign; Jillian is a mercenary with 21 units. Ansom has several magical items that we've seen that Jillian has no access to by herself. That's demonstrated - do you doubt that he has other resources to hand?
    ...and your point is? Ansom might have all sorts of resources we don't know about, but that is true for ALL of the characters. Maybe Webinar had a secret cache of magic items that he was storing up for a coup against the King of Jetstone, so he could put his favorite Prince on the throne (Hey, wouldn't Webby be next in line for Chief Warlord? Look, a motive!).
    Last edited by fendrin; 2009-01-05 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    "I trust Commander Zamussels completely." That was obviously not true.
    It was a joke with an old friend, as his following exchange with Vinnie makes clear -- he's saying that he trusts her completely because he just saw her come back. When Vinnie jibes him about it, they just laugh it off. That's not the same thing as openly deceiving someone at all.

    And Stanley's Loyalty score is highly relevant, since your only contention that I'm wrong is based off of speculation that he failed a Loyalty check. If you're not going to allow me speculation based off of incomplete information, you shouldn't do it either.
    You're relying on complete speculation as well, as is everyone who isn't the writer, you know. Also, I don't see you taking this umbrage with the people who are using Charlescomm as the ultimate solution to all the problems of Erfworld, even to the point of speculating that Charlie killed Saline. Also, most of what I've postulated is absolutely grounded in provided information - Ansom hates Stanley. Ansom hates non-royals and believes he has a divine right to rule them. Ansom desires the death of Stanley and to posess GK.
    There are different degrees of speculation and assumption. We have been told that all units have a hidden loyalty score, and shown (from the interactions between them, especially between Stanley and others) that it is not particularly rare for high-ranking units to turn or betray their master from time to time. Therefore, given what we've seen of Stanley's decidedly egocentric, self-centered personality, it is not really a stretch to say that he may have a low loyalty to others.

    Meanwhile, we have seen absolutely nothing linking Ansom to Gobwin Knob in any way before this war; we haven't seen any hint of advanced intelligence, communications, or espionage capabilities available to Jetstone; we haven't seen any hint that he has a particularly manipulative or devious personality. (If anything, while he can be diplomatic, he's often wince-inducingly blunt.) We've seen nothing to indicate that he is capable of unprovoked regicide against the lawful king of another nation (neither on a personal level, nor a practical one). All of that is groundless speculation, based just around what you want to see, and not around anything in the comic.

    Think closely about what you're saying. Jillian is NOT Chief Warlord to Ansom or even a unit under his control, so the effects of Duty and Loyalty are less intense on her, she has a self-described poor Loyalty score (she hated Saline), and Loyalty can be modified by the spell....but yet, when given an indirect opportunity to merely hinder Ansom, she instead broke the spell. Now add up the Chief Warlord factor and that Stanley probably wasn't being magically influenced, and you're still postulating that he's MORE likely to do something much worse than what Jillian refused to do? Possible, but highly unlikely
    I still think you misunderstand how Loyalty works. Duty and Loyalty are not less intense on her; unless Wanda's spell worked by inducing them, they have never and will never apply to her at all. She isn't Ansom's unit, and has no loyalty or duty to him whatsoever. She's the leader of her own barbarian faction; the only loyalty that could possibly apply to her is a magically-induced one to Wanda. I assumed, therefore, that that is what you were speaking about... hence my confusion. She was magically loyal to Wanda; but that loyalty broke over personal concerns. This is more evidence that loyalty is not absolute.

    Plainly, she has no capital-L loyalty to Ansom. She's a mercenary, not one of his units, and is free to break her alliance at any time -- frequent references are made to this. She's in the same category as Charlie, who was (going by his initial conversation with Parson) plainly free to stab Ansom in the back even during an alliance, and chose not to only because it would hurt his reputation. Jillian could lop Ansom's head off any time she chooses... the reason why she doesn't (and the reason why her magically-induced loyalty to Wanda failed) is because of her own personal feelings, not because of any magical compulsion.

    Um, no. Ansom is Chief Warlord of Jetsone with over 2900 units at the start of this campaign; Jillian is a mercenary with 21 units. Ansom has several magical items that we've seen that Jillian has no access to by herself. That's demonstrated - do you doubt that he has other resources to hand?
    The resources necessary to undetectably cause revolution and regicide in a distant country go considerably beyond a few field units. He's said himself that he has no lookamancers, and demonstrated through his actions that he has no thinkamancers. Parson notes in a klog that casters are rare and valuable.

    Basically, I trust the authors of the strip more than this. What you're describing would be a ham-handed shocking swerve, with very little leading up to it. It doesn't make Ansom's character more interesting; in fact, it makes him into a faceless evildoer. The logic behind it hasn't been properly-established or touched on in the strip -- we've been specifically shown that right now, Ansom [i]doesn't[/i ]have the resources necessary to pull this off, and he's been shown to us as a guy with a stick up his ass, maybe, certainly with lots of class prejudices... but basically someone who tries to be noble, someone who worries about wasting the lives of his men, and so on. The guy you're describing -- capable of committing regicide and encouraging an uprising against a lawful king, capable of lying to his closest friends and confidantes in order to start a war on pretexts he knows to be false -- simply doesn't match the Ansom we've been introduced to at all.

    I think that the authors are basically honest in the things they're telling us. I don't think there are any totally unexpected, out-of-the-blue twists hiding inside the characters -- Ansom clearly has a nasty side at times, and might have done some terrible things in the past without realizing it, but what you're describing is way beyond that.

    I simply cannot see him as capable of assassinating Saline IV, then trying to accuse Stanley of it in an argument with Vinnie. Actually assassinating Saline IV is actually less impossible to me -- maybe, whatever; that's just speculation. But to bring it up himself in an argument with his best friend, in a deceptive attempt to argue against Stanley? Never. It's flatly absurd, and goes against everything we've seen about Ansom as a character, as well as everything we've seen about his relationship with Vinnie. Why would he even need to lie to Vinnie like that? He could have said any one of a thousand different things, there was no need to accuse Stanley of regicide again in an argument with Vinnie. When he's uncomfortable with other things when talking to Vinnie, he'll usually change the subject or admit his uncertainty -- why would he do such a flamboyantly jerk-ass thing as try to use Saline's death for leverage in an argument with his best friend, if he didn't honestly believe that Stanley was responsible?
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2009-01-05 at 01:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    QUOTE]It was a joke with an old friend, as his following exchange with Vinnie makes clear -- he's saying that he trusts her completely because he just saw her come back. When Vinnie jibes him about it, they just laugh it off. That's not the same thing as openly deceiving someone at all.[/QUOTE]

    Your interpretation is they're jibing. I hadn't seen them do that before, especially in the middle of a serious discussion about Stanley, but that's your perception. Mine is that they were serious, seeing as how Ansom doesn't have much of a sense of humor.

    There are different degrees of speculation and assumption. We have been told that all units have a hidden loyalty score, and shown (from the interactions between them, especially between Stanley and others) that it is not particularly rare for high-ranking units to turn or betray their master from time to time. Therefore, given what we've seen of Stanley's decidedly egocentric, self-centered personality, it is not really a stretch to say that he may have a low loyalty to others.
    Actually, we HAVE seen him show a bit of a needy side - remember his reaction to Wanda's explanation of the spell? "She hates me?" Stanley to me is a grade A attention whore, who takes negative if he can't get positive. But he prefers positive, as his tirade against Parson about being the 'evil' guy also shows.

    We've seen nothing to indicate that he is capable of unprovoked regicide against the lawful king of another nation (neither on a personal level, nor a practical one). All of that is groundless speculation, based just around what you want to see, and not around anything in the comic.
    Well, I mean, considering that he's currently attempting regicide against the lawful king of another nation, I'd consider that a good indication that he can do it if he desires. As far as provocation, SteveMB thinks a bit like I do. What Saline did is an offense against the Titans in Ansom's book.

    Plainly, she has no capital-L loyalty to Ansom. She's a mercenary, not one of his units, and is free to break her alliance at any time -- frequent references are made to this. She's in the same category as Charlie, who was (going by his initial conversation with Parson) plainly free to stab Ansom in the back even during an alliance, and chose not to only because it would hurt his reputation. Jillian could lop Ansom's head off any time she chooses... the reason why she doesn't (and the reason why her magically-induced loyalty to Wanda failed) is because of her own personal feelings, not because of any magical compulsion.
    This is my point exactly - she has no reason why she shouldn't avoid the fight with the dwagons, and yet she was able to break the spell. Stanley has more restrictions on him than she ever did, and a demonstrated better Loyalty score than Jillian, and yet he's supposed to have killed his ruler. And when I say he has a better Loyalty score, I mean that when he acquired the Arkenhammer, instead of making his own faction or killing Saline then, he instead 'trained a bunch of dwagons' and won lots of battles for Saline, by implication expanding his empire. Does not compute with the popular picture of him being a self-absorbed would be regicide.

    When he's uncomfortable with other things when talking to Vinnie, he'll usually change the subject or admit his uncertainty -- why would he do such a flamboyantly jerk-ass thing as try to use Saline's death for leverage in an argument with his best friend, if he didn't honestly believe that Stanley was responsible?
    This is a good argument. About the only rebuttal I could have is that by placing the focus back on what Stanley did, it deflected a bit from the 'why are YOU leading the coalition?' question. It then becomes a question of Stanley rather than a question of Ansom.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin
    I shouldn't get involved in this, but I'm getting annoyed with it. Let me start by saying I doubt Ansom was behind the Gobwin revolt. It just doesn't seem his style. For that matter, I'm not sure why everyone assumes that someone WAS behind it. It is perfectly possible that it was entirely a Gobwin idea. That could be why there aren't any Gobwin warlords: Stanley just doesn't trust them enough. If someone was behind it though, I would put odds on Wanda (even if, or maybe even especially if, she was not part of GK at the time... heck, then she wouldn't have even had to overcome her Loyalty), then Stanley. After Stanley Charlie seems likely, and then maybe Don King. Ansom is just too full of the nobility thing to use underhanded tactics. He seems much more the sort to raise a huge army and get thousands killed rather than arranging an assassination. You know, kind of like what he did to get rid of Stanley.
    I don't see why Wanda would be much more likely than Jack. And I certainly don't see why your choosing the Don King over any of the other royals rulers... (except Ansom)
    Last edited by Lamech; 2009-01-05 at 08:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech
    And to toss out a third possiblity perhaps Ansom's "flying-gear" is donned for a reason when he uses the carpet? Like not painfully dying from otherwise leathal falls.
    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    That is also quite likely. In particular his helmet. I wonder if the fact it fell means it's not effective any more
    that sounds plausible. undoubtedly Ansom has far more HP than Wanda, therefore surviving the damage he took is very likely, but i expected at least some cuts or bruises visible on him in pg. 122.
    but as a prince, it would be also quite probable that his suit is magical and provides significant damage reduction.

    also there are 3 things notable in the last panel of pg. 122:
    1) Ansom's worried look has already been mentioned. looks like it's been the first time he ever thought of the possibility that the pliers are meant for Wanda. so maybe royalty is really no guarantee for the Titans' mandate?
    2) Sizemore is already in the center of his little golem-stonehenge looking after Wanda. i guess he's already doing some sort of healing and Wanda will survive.
    3) the 2 archons escorting Ansom have paused following him back up and instead turned to each other talking and gesticulating. i wonder what they're discussing...

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    My biggest surprise in this thread is the argument about Ansom surviving the fall with little injury and Wanda being nearly dead... He's a warlord with a ton of hitpoints! They are not humans with similar builds.
    Not surprising. We know Bogrol, a basic troll gets 12 hit points. We also know that Jack, a Master-class caster, gets 6. Casters are supposed to be fragile in combat, after all.
    Last edited by SteveD; 2009-01-05 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lug0si
    1) Ansom's worried look has already been mentioned. looks like it's been the first time he ever thought of the possibility that the pliers are meant for Wanda. so maybe royalty is really no guarantee for the Titans' mandate?
    2) Sizemore is already in the center of his little golem-stonehenge looking after Wanda. i guess he's already doing some sort of healing and Wanda will survive.
    3) the 2 archons escorting Ansom have paused following him back up and instead turned to each other talking and gesticulating. i wonder what they're discussing...
    One would be bad for Parson Ansom re-think his hard-headness about something. Not good

    On number two and three good eye. I suspect that if anyone can heal Wanda it is Sizemore. The fact that he isn't say repairing the wall, or maybe shooting Ansom down, but is over Wanda probably seals it. Perhaps the archons could be discussing if Wanda could attune to the pliers. Could one of Charlies rules be "If you find someone who attunes to an Arkentool boop the contract grab that person and the tool; assuming you can have plausible deniability and sufficient force."?
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lug0si View Post
    that sounds plausible. undoubtedly Ansom has far more HP than Wanda, therefore surviving the damage he took is very likely, but i expected at least some cuts or bruises visible on him in pg. 122.
    but as a prince, it would be also quite probable that his suit is magical and provides significant damage reduction.[...]
    Do not forget: Ansom wears the "Evel Knievel"-suit! Therefore he cannot die just because he falls to the ground...

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    I don't see why Wanda would be much more likely than Jack. And I certainly don't see why your choosing the Don King over any of the other royals rulers... (except Ansom)
    Wanda over Jack because Wanda has a known history of manipulating people, while Jack just fools them.

    Don King over other rulers mainly because of proximity. I suppose Banhammer would fit that criterion as well, as FAQ may have fallen after the Gobwin revolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveD View Post
    Not surprising. We know Bogrol, a basic troll gets 12 hit points. We also know that Jack, a Master-class caster, gets 6. Casters are supposed to be fragile in combat, after all.
    That is a trope that may not hold in Erfworld (where production time/costs and upkeep costs are a balancing factor, unlike in many RPGs).

    You really can't compare two individuals and deduce a trend; there are too many variables.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2009-01-05 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin
    Wanda over Jack because Wanda has a known history of manipulating people, while Jack just fools them.

    Don King over other rulers mainly because of proximity. I suppose Banhammer would fit that criterion as well, as FAQ may have fallen after the Gobwin revolt.
    Ahh... that makes sense.


    I would also like to point out that the artwork has been great these last two strips. So congrats to Jamie.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by Znek View Post
    Do not forget: Ansom wears the "Evel Knievel"-suit! Therefore he cannot die just because he falls to the ground...
    DOH! didn't realize that - blame it on me being european and not having seen EK in the media here that much when i grew up. thanks for the info - that explains his 'invulnerability'!

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
    As far as provocation, SteveMB thinks a bit like I do. What Saline did is an offense against the Titans in Ansom's book.
    To be precise, I think that's a point in favor of the theory, but not enough to overcome the problems a few other people mentioned.

    she has no reason why she shouldn't avoid the fight with the dwagons
    Except the obvious one, which is that it is very unlike her to voluntarily avoid a fight. Heck, one of the first things we've seen her do is engage in a completely unnecessary fight in direct defiance of her orders.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    On number two and three good eye. I suspect that if anyone can heal Wanda it is Sizemore. The fact that he isn't say repairing the wall, or maybe shooting Ansom down, but is over Wanda probably seals it. Perhaps the archons could be discussing if Wanda could attune to the pliers. Could one of Charlies rules be "If you find someone who attunes to an Arkentool boop the contract grab that person and the tool; assuming you can have plausible deniability and sufficient force."?
    Interesting ideas.

    Here's a whacky idea on Faq.
    Maybe King Saline took Faq and Jack and Wanda. Then Wanda "convinced" Stanley to take the army and dragons away, then with the help of Jack they made the Gobwins rebel and kill Saline. Everybody wins. Well except Jack who got chained with Maggie and Misty and got some backlash crazy at the end.
    Not very good theory because I just can't see Wanda caring about Faq that much, or Jack agreeing to do it. Why did Stanley leave the Faq ruins anyway? I would guess that in a strategy game like this, when you find city ruins close to your capital, it's a good idea to rebuild a city there and increase your power...

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Short range prediction: After Wanda is nice and safe and Sizemore has done whatever he can to repair the walls; The coalition is going to be in trouble. See all those nice siege-tower units designed to not hit units, but break walls, and of course, saftely hiden from GK units because of that solid stone? Note Sizemore and his heavies moving through heavy stone. Good-bye siege-tower units.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    Short range prediction: After Wanda is nice and safe and Sizemore has done whatever he can to repair the walls; The coalition is going to be in trouble. See all those nice siege-tower units designed to not hit units, but break walls, and of course, saftely hiden from GK units because of that solid stone? Note Sizemore and his heavies moving through heavy stone. Good-bye siege-tower units.
    A nice idea, but those siege units are guarded quite well, so it would be a suicide mission.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Huh... the battle bears are quite well defended. The units on the siege towers are what I'm talking about. Their precious tower would defend golems from arrow fire, ground units would have a narrow walk way and it would take time to climb and I doubt hurling big rocks at the towers would end well. Unless your talking about Ansom, and somehow I don't think those golems will be quite as defenseless as the undead...

    The golems would be worn down and it wouldn't make a huge differance, but it would help. Hmm... maybe the golems could take the supports of the towers. That would keep them close to the wall.

    Oh yeah, doing so might damage the walls. That would end really badly.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralKit View Post
    Quite frankly, if Ansom weren't nearly as good at getting lucky as he was, the battle for Gobwin Knob would have been over 20 strips ago.
    To be fair, the only luck Ansom has had is Jillian throwing off Wanda's spell just in time to join in on the fight which Parson hoped would see Ansom either captured (Parson's idea, in the time before he gained ruthlessness) or croaked (Stanley's idea) and the Arcenpliers won. Other than that, Ansom wasn't lucky in the tunnels, or in the fight between Transylvito and Stanley, or in the loss of 40% of his siege, or in the way his side reacted to the uncroaked Jetstone troops appearing on the walls forcing him into an early attack (to which I have to say I still do not understand why waiting for the rest of the siege was not the best move), or in being forced into an unfavorable bargain with Charlie due to being on the edge of death. Ansom hasn't really been lucky as much as Parson has gotten unlucky a few times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whispri View Post
    Aaaannnnnd back to the status quo. Ansom's constant cheating of fate to continue his ineffectual villain routine is getting rather tiresome.
    Meh, I'm on Parson's side in this conflict, but Ansom didn't cheat fate as much as he had a contingency plan. That's not luck, it's good generalship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldaran View Post
    I like that the rock golem is saying Gabba Gabba Hey.
    It is, after all, a punk rock golem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scylfing View Post
    Well yeah, Ansom is the "Dashing Hero" (or rather a subversion of one, turned into the antagonist by telling the story from Parson's point of view) and if we learn anything from television and the movies it's that our plucky hero will defeat the schemes of the evil mastermind through dumb luck/the power of the plot, and viewers will cheer. The exact same thing is happening here, just from a different perspective, and yet many readers are unhappy at it. It's an interesting case study in judging people's reactions based on who is cast as the protagonist.
    Except that the authors have been very careful not to cast either side as the good guys or the bad guys. Parson assumed he was on the bad guys side because of the traditionally evil unit types GK has: Dwagons, Gobwins, etc. Stanley became very upset at that assumption, which is quite unlike the typical bad guy reaction. Xykon and Redcloak, for example, embrace their "bad guy" status. The authors have hidden who started the war, who (if anyone) caused the Gobwin uprising that got Saline IV killed, and who sacked FAQ. All may be revealed in time, but right now all we have as any indication of who is the good or the bad side are the actions and reactions of the characters. Wanda does typically evil things (torture, raising undead), sometimes for inscrutable reasons. When Ansom tells Wanda she has turned his men into abominations and calls her a demoness, he makes her sound like a bad 'guy'. But this is not Earth, it's Erf. Things may not be as they seem. Bogroll seems to be 'good' in his thoughts and deeds, while Ansom has a vampire flavored ally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altima View Post
    According to leading theory, the RCC started the whole war of aggression because Stanley is, simply, not a royal. They've already hit all of Stanley's other cities. The fact that Ansom is going to take GK no matter what shouldn't surprise you.
    If this is indeed the leading theory, it's purely speculative and not is based on any hints from the authors.

    What still has me disappointed is the way Charlie is set up as the decider. He arrived with enough Archons to take GK in one turn. Others have pointed out that a lot has changed since then, and they are right. But Charlie is no Ansom. He doesn't have allies about to flake out on him precipitating rash actions. Charlie, as an information broker, can be assumed to know that his Archons are fairly untouchable by the GK forces, while Charlie can easily afford the luxury of waiting until the uncroaked Jetstone forces crumble away. Charlie is in a position to give victory to Parson, to Ansom, or to himself. And that makes for a poor story.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    If this is indeed the leading theory, it's purely speculative and not is based on any hints from the authors.
    Ansom frothing at the mouth, the Vinnie-Ansom conversation about Stanley being a regicide, and Sizemore's statements about the Nobles tendency to gang-up on non-Noble rulers.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    Huh... the battle bears are quite well defended. The units on the siege towers are what I'm talking about. Their precious tower would defend golems from arrow fire, ground units would have a narrow walk way and it would take time to climb and I doubt hurling big rocks at the towers would end well. Unless your talking about Ansom, and somehow I don't think those golems will be quite as defenseless as the undead...

    The golems would be worn down and it wouldn't make a huge differance, but it would help. Hmm... maybe the golems could take the supports of the towers. That would keep them close to the wall.

    Oh yeah, doing so might damage the walls. That would end really badly.
    Oh, I thought that you meant the golems would emerge at ground level. I see now you meant that they would attack the top of the towers. That would work better, if we assume that stronger units can't climb the towers to get at the golems.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    What still has me disappointed is the way Charlie is set up as the decider. He arrived with enough Archons to take GK in one turn. Others have pointed out that a lot has changed since then, and they are right. But Charlie is no Ansom. He doesn't have allies about to flake out on him precipitating rash actions. Charlie, as an information broker, can be assumed to know that his Archons are fairly untouchable by the GK forces, while Charlie can easily afford the luxury of waiting until the uncroaked Jetstone forces crumble away. Charlie is in a position to give victory to Parson, to Ansom, or to himself. And that makes for a poor story.
    Ah, but Charlie does not necessarily know about Stanley's return, which is almost guaranteed to take placeon GK's next turn, which because of Charlie's greed will be before he can capture GK.

    I have no doubt that Stanley alone would be able to take out a number of archons, plus there are a few other full-strength dwagons with him, and perhaps most importantly, Jack.

    That wouldn't be enough to save GK on it's own, now that Charlie is working with Ansom, but is Parson sallies forth to lead the uncroaked, I don't think the RCC will not have much luck breaching the walls.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    What still has me disappointed is the way Charlie is set up as the decider. He arrived with enough Archons to take GK in one turn. Others have pointed out that a lot has changed since then, and they are right. But Charlie is no Ansom. He doesn't have allies about to flake out on him precipitating rash actions. Charlie, as an information broker, can be assumed to know that his Archons are fairly untouchable by the GK forces, while Charlie can easily afford the luxury of waiting until the uncroaked Jetstone forces crumble away. Charlie is in a position to give victory to Parson, to Ansom, or to himself. And that makes for a poor story.
    I guess we've yet to see if Charlie can indeed deliver a victory to Ansom...

    Just sayin'.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Ah, but no one doubts that Stanley has a loyalty score. We know he has one (though I suppose it is irrelevant now that he is his own overlord). What would be the point of having one if it couldn't be tested. Not knowing the number is not the same as not knowing whether or not he has a score.
    He may have a Loyalty score, but is it relevant? Stanley was the Chief Warlord for Saline. Duty "Affects Commanders only. Has higher affect on Warlords, highest on Chief Warlord. Requires us to use our own initiative in the service of the Ruler. Can't withhold information, can't conspire against the Ruler."

    If Stanley is revealed to be the cause of Saline's death due to conspiracy with the Gobwins, when he simply can not conspire against the Ruler, then the authors will have failed miserably to maintain any facade of internal consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin
    I wouldn't be surprised if he [Stanley] was being magically influenced now. In fact, I would be surprised if Wanda hadn't at least tried to magically influence him (she's used her body to influence him, I can't imagine her not starting with magic). Given that Wanda is a very powerful 'caster and Stanley is, well, not bright (I think he and Jillian are having a stupid contest... I'm not sure who's losing), does it seem likely that Wanda would have failed in her casting?
    Similarly to my above comment, Wanda is also bound by the rule of Duty. She is less bound than a Chief Warlord, but she is a Commander type unit and the odds of her secretly casting spells to manipulate Stanley are not very great, based on the amount of the rule set which has been revealed. I would also guess, while admitting that this is speculation, that a Ruler knows which units are theirs to command. A unit is either loyal, or it is not. Jillian urged Wanda to "turn", which supports a switch-like mechanic. You're loyal up until the point you turn, at which time you're either a mercenary or perhaps you join another Ruler's side. Being a double agent while still in the camp of the Ruler seems like a huge violation of the mechanics as we have seen them to date.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by Walpurgisborn View Post
    Ansom frothing at the mouth, the Vinnie-Ansom conversation about Stanley being a regicide, and Sizemore's statements about the Nobles tendency to gang-up on non-Noble rulers.
    I missed any part of your reply with a point, sorry. You listed a bunch of things but you didn't explain what if any relevance you felt those things conveyed.

    Are you saying that Stanley is a bad guy because two of his enemies called him a bad name such as a "regicide"? People often call others bad names to make themselves feel better about hating them, but that doesn't make the person being called a bad name bad. It also doesn't necessarily make the name callers bad, although in general terms thinking poorly of someone without evidence of their alleged poor behavior is not a virtue. But we have no evidence that either Ansom or Vinnie were present at the fall of Saline IV.

    Or are you saying that Ansom is a bad guy because he's got such a gump lodged about the divine right to rule being conferred by a royal title? Again, being all passionate about your title doesn't make you a bad person.

    Or are you saying that all Nobles are all evil, since they conspire against any non-Noble who manages through hard work and personal effectiveness to rise to become a Ruler? That would be the most "bad" thing of the three, but people trying to defend an institution, especially one with a basis in religion, tend to react very strongly to any challenge to that institution.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    He may have a Loyalty score, but is it relevant? Stanley was the Chief Warlord for Saline. Duty "Affects Commanders only. Has higher affect on Warlords, highest on Chief Warlord. Requires us to use our own initiative in the service of the Ruler. Can't withhold information, can't conspire against the Ruler."

    If Stanley is revealed to be the cause of Saline's death due to conspiracy with the Gobwins, when he simply can not conspire against the Ruler, then the authors will have failed miserably to maintain any facade of internal consistency.
    If Duty is absolutely binding, then it's nonsense to say that it has a "higher" or "highest" effect on certain units. The only way those comparative measures make any sense is if there's some likelihood that a Duty-bound unit might fail to act in accordance with Duty (with that likelihood being less, but still nonzero, for units that are "more" affected by Duty than others).

    Also, as other people have pointed out, if Duty were absolutely binding, then Ansom's condemnation of Stanley as having advanced by regicide would be preposterous. It would be like accusing someone in the real world of having supernatural powers and using them to put curses on people or rob banks by impalpably walking through the vault walls. Yes, Ansom is not entirely objective or rational on the subject, but if his notions were flat-out impossible then surely Vinny, at least, would call him on it.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2009-01-05 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    He may have a Loyalty score, but is it relevant? Stanley was the Chief Warlord for Saline. Duty "Affects Commanders only. Has higher affect on Warlords, highest on Chief Warlord. Requires us to use our own initiative in the service of the Ruler. Can't withhold information, can't conspire against the Ruler."

    If Stanley is revealed to be the cause of Saline's death due to conspiracy with the Gobwins, when he simply can not conspire against the Ruler, then the authors will have failed miserably to maintain any facade of internal consistency.
    If Duty was absolute, then Ansom's accusation of Stanley would be dismissed as impossible. If Duty was absolute then Stanley would not have accused Parson, Sizemore, and Wanda of betraying him. If Duty was absolute, there would be no need for a Loyalty stat.

    Ansom's accusations are not dismissed, Stanley did accuse his three commanders, and there is a Loyalty stat.

    Therefore Duty is not absolute, QED.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    Similarly to my above comment, Wanda is also bound by the rule of Duty. She is less bound than a Chief Warlord, but she is a Commander type unit and the odds of her secretly casting spells to manipulate Stanley are not very great, based on the amount of the rule set which has been revealed. I would also guess, while admitting that this is speculation, that a Ruler knows which units are theirs to command. A unit is either loyal, or it is not. Jillian urged Wanda to "turn", which supports a switch-like mechanic. You're loyal up until the point you turn, at which time you're either a mercenary or perhaps you join another Ruler's side. Being a double agent while still in the camp of the Ruler seems like a huge violation of the mechanics as we have seen them to date.
    1) See above.
    2) Wanda's spells on Stanley may predate her joining GK.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    I think it would really improve the accuracy of our speculstions if we knew just who it was sent that thinkagram to Jillian.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    If Duty is absolutely binding, then it's nonsense to say that it has a "higher" or "highest" effect on certain units. The only way those comparative measures make any sense is if there's some likelihood that a Duty-bound unit might fail to act in accordance with Duty (with that likelihood being less, but still nonzero, for units that are "more" affected by Duty than others).

    Also, as other people have pointed out, if Duty were absolutely binding, then Ansom's condemnation of Stanley as having advanced by regicide would be preposterous. It would be like accusing someone in the real world of having supernatural powers and using them to put curses on people or rob banks by impalpably walking through the vault walls. Yes, Ansom is not entirely objective or rational on the subject, but if his notions were flat-out impossible then surely Vinny, at least, would call him on it.
    If Duty is not absolutely binding on anyone at all, then why would things be stated in completely black and white terms: Requires us to use our own initiative in the service of the Ruler. Can't withhold information, can't conspire against the Ruler.
    Requires. Can't withhold. Can't conspire.

    We are being fed these rules by Parson, so it's possible he has misrepresented them, but that would set up another inconsistency:
    Parson is ignorant of many rules. But once he learns of a rule, it becomes quickly and expertly integrated into his strategic thinking. As a case in point, Parson was able to quickly deduce the "hit and run" tactic that made the turn seem like an overwhelming victory to Ansom and his leadership cadre. Until Vinnie expressed doubts based simply upon the strength of the attacking Dwagons, it never occurred to Ansom or any of his other leaders that this sort of tactic was not only possible, but could be used to great effect. And Ansom and his cadre are veterans of at least the capturing/sacking of Stanley's other 10 cities, and theoretically a good number of other skirmishes or wars as well. For Parson to be wrong about Duty would be so uncharacteristic as to be astonishing. Rather, Parson, as Chief Warlord, is "Require[d] to use his own initiative in the service of the Ruler. Can't withhold information, can't conspire against the Ruler." Other leaders are similarly compelled, but not as absolutely.

    This conclusion, and this alone, has no logical inconsistencies with the other information provided and prior characterization of Parson's ability to accurately grasp the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    2) Wanda's spells on Stanley may predate her joining GK.
    Once Wanda was Stanley's unit, you know, so much under his control that he can end her existence with a thought if he sees her before leaving GK to follow his quest, so much so that Stanley decides whether or not GK pays her upkeep, both Loyalty and Duty would forbid any such skullduggery. It is preposterous to assume that Wanda is puppeteering Stanley with anything other than her required obligation to use her initiative in his service.
    Last edited by BillyJimBoBob; 2009-01-05 at 05:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 135 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 122

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    If Duty is not absolutely binding on anyone at all, then why would things be stated in completely black and white terms: Requires us to use our own initiative in the service of the Ruler. Can't withhold information, can't conspire against the Ruler.
    Requires. Can't withhold. Can't conspire.
    Perhaps it's black and white when it works. When it doesn't work (i.e. when a loyalty check is failed) it may as well not exist at all.

    But hey, what happens when the best thing a warlord can do for their ruler is to withhold information?

    Imagine this: Warlord Bob knows that his king, Dudley the Dullwitted, will take any chance he has to capture the arkenbucket. Bob discovers that Roger, the wielder of the 'bucket will be traveling through the region. Bob also knows that if he tells Dudley this, Dudley will attack, despite his vastly inferior army. If Dudley attacks, he will be killed. Thus the best thing Bob can do to serve Dudley is to withhold the info. What does Duty compel Bob to do?
    Not so black and white, is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    This conclusion, and this alone, has no logical inconsistencies <snip>
    Whoa there, that is a seriously flawed statement. I am a trained logician, and I think through my points before I post them (not that I am claiming to always be right or anything). You have yet to reconcile my counterarguments with your idea. Maybe you would like to back up these brashly bold words? Don't ignore my counterarguments, resolve them. Point out the logical inconsistencies in them. You don't win a debate by posting 'I'm right and you're wrong'. All you'll do is get people to ignore you.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    Once Wanda was Stanley's unit, you know, so much under his control that he can end her existence with a thought if he sees her before leaving GK to follow his quest, so much so that Stanley decides whether or not GK pays her upkeep, both Loyalty and Duty would forbid any such skullduggery. It is preposterous to assume that Wanda is puppeteering Stanley with anything other than her required obligation to use her initiative in his service.
    I have some preposterous thoughts, I admit, but that isn't one of them. Explain the purpose of the Loyalty stat if Duty is absolute. For that matter, prove that Duty and Loyalty necessarily (and to be clear, I'm using 'necessarily' in the context of modal logic) exist in Erfworld, and that they aren't simply theories that Erflings created to explain free will in the context of their world, in which things like 'move' and 'hits' are observable and verifiable attributes. I'll give you a hint: it can't be done. If you can prove me wrong, please do so. I am a reasonable person and will admit when I am wrong.

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