GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread II

[DracoDei]

Templates are not allowed. One day he may do a template competition, but this is not that day (err... month).

[Bhu]

The only two concepts I've thought of have been a template, and a creature with Divine Rank 0 (which I prolly wont get done in time). If I think of somethin I'll give it a shot, but I may set this one out.

[DracoDei]

These Boots:
Brilliant in its simplicity... but perhaps too simple, in the end, to attract my vote.

How many shoes in a shoe store?

Need to specify that you meant non-neutral on the Good/Evil axis in the part about getting a negative level... and why didn't you just say "Anyone of an alignment other than Chaotic Neutral"?

Specify the ego score, rather than forcing each GM to calculate it would be good. Or did I somehow miss seeing it?

Plot hooks traditionally go toward the end of the

[The Gilded Duke]

Thanks, I'll move the plot hooks to the end. I noted the Ego score in the abilities section like the Eberron books do. I might note it elsewhere in the stat block. Shoe store was meant partly as a joke, but perhaps 5.

I'll have to look at the SRD rules again and try to rephrase it, but according to the SRD Intelligent items give a negative level to things that aren't of their alignment... with a few exceptions.

Chaotic Neutral doesn't give negative levels to a neutral character, or any chaotic character (chaotic evil, chaotic good, or chaotic neutral) However it might be easier to just cut out the negative level part.

And yes, I've been trying for simplicity with some of the latest things I have created.

I assume rewriting for clarity and formatting is allowed?

Also, really liking the favored of the traveler god, perhaps there is a way to work the size changes in with the Mirror Face ability? Also how does the paralyzation and the immobilizing touch work? Is it a special ability that gets added to all their weapons, or is it a special quarter staff they carry with them like a Balor's sword? Also, what determines the DC of those abilities if any?

[DracoDei]

I assume rewriting for clarity and formatting is allowed?

Most certainly. These contests would lose half their point as far as teaching people to refine their art to ever higher levels if it wasn't.

Also, really liking the favored of the traveler god, perhaps there is a way to work the size changes in with the Mirror Face ability?

A possibility, but I will have to think on how to make things the most simple and clear for the GM (while maintaining the flavor, but I am not seeing any likely problems on that front).

Also how does the paralyzation and the immobilizing touch work?

They hit, it happens... of course, if you have Freedom of Movement that is another matter... Need to define durations... probably 1 round per Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) of the Favored of the Traveler God (so normally 5 rounds). For anyone who doesn't know, "Immobilized" just means you can't leave the square(s) you currently occupy.

Is it a special ability that gets added to all their weapons, or is it a special quarter staff they carry with them like a Balor's sword?

Special ability on all melee attacks probably.

Also, what determines the DC of those abilities if any?

So far I am thinking they don't allow saves, but I might change that.

[The Gilded Duke]

Yeah, I think without saves makes them under CRed. The outsider levels give them a nice attack bonus, and the immobilization ability helps them keep people still for a full attack. And no save paralysis is incredible.

[DracoDei]

The damage on that full attack isn't exactly huge though... still, it may be worth a CR bump...

[Debihuman]

First, I LOVE the theme of this competition. I've got a few ideas mulling about but I'm not sure I'll have time. Moreover, my monster-creating skills are kinda rusty these days.

SlaadLord, I love what you did. Just one itsy bitsy nit pick -- in Environment stat block it should say "(See Below)" not "(See Above)."

And to answer your question about who puts ranks in Knowledge (Local), Rogues, Sorcerers, and Wizards have this as a class skill.


The Gilded Duke, you have the beginnings of a cool monster. It obvsiously isn't finished. I'll admit, I'm biased against the format of stat block that you are using because it is harder to judge a monster. It may be easier on a DM to adjudicate, but for evaluation purposes the format suggested by Vorpal Tribble is easiest. I've looked at the Symbiont from ECS and it appears you have a number of stat block errors.

It should be Aberration (Symbiont) not Construct (Symbiont). These are living things and should have a Constitution modifier [see page 299 of ECS].

Hit Dice should be 1d8 (4 hp). [Even if you had this as a construct the HD for constructs is d10 not d12]

Why would any one make this if they only have a speed of 10? That completely hamstrings their purpose. It makes sense that they'd use the host's speed if the host's speed is faster, but they probably should have a better speed on their own. I recommend upping this to at least 20 feet and 30 feet would be appropriate. Also, 10 feet is 2 squares. 20 feet is 4 squares and 30 feet is 6 squares.

Initiative is +2 not 2. [You forgot the "+" in a lot of places].

Armor Class: 16 (+2 Size, +2 Natural, +2 Dex), Touch 14, Flat-footed 14

Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d6-2). The standard for critical hits is 20/x2 so you don't need that in the stat block. Attack and Full Attack should list whether it is a ranged attack or a melee attack. Since you gave them Weapon Finesse, it makes sense that the attack is a melee attack. [When attached to a host, they should allow the host to make an additional kick attack as long as the host is not tripped, or prone or otherwise incapable of such an action].

Don't forget to change your saving throws: Constructs have no good saves but Aberrations have good Will saves. Fort +0 [Plus whatever Con modifier, if any] Ref +2, Will +4.

Skills. Aberrations and Constructs use the same numbers, and well, yours are off. 3x4=12 skill points for first HD. You have 12 ranks of skills to work with so putting 6 into Hide and 6 into Tumble makes sense. Note that racial bonuses to skills are generally +8 not +10.

Hide + 16 (6 ranks, +2 Dex + 8 size).
Tumble + 16 (6 ranks, +2 Dex +8 racial)
Jump +2 (+6 when jumping from a running start). You get a +2 synergy bonus from Tumble to Jump and you get an additional +4 from the Run feat if you jump from a running start.

Feats: Since it doesn't meet the requirement for Weapon Finesse, you should make this the bonus feat and give it Run as its normal feat. Weapon Finesse requires a BAB of +1, which this creature does not have.

Debby

[DracoDei]

So he adapted the subtype from Abberation over to Construct... what is the problem? I see no reason to change the type.

[The Gilded Duke]

Symbiont actually isn't Abberation only, the rules also mention outsider Symbionts, so instead I made a construct symbiont. I thought I followed the format Vorpal Tribble linked, I'll look over it again. Aberration doesn't really fit the idea of the creature, besides Construct I think Fey would fit the best.

Good catch on the Weapon Finesse, I'll change that now.

[Debihuman]

So he adapted the subtype from Abberation over to Construct... what is the problem? I see no reason to change the type.

Actually the TYPE is Aberration or Construct. Symbiont is a SUBTYPE. I relied on the Eberron Campaign Setting and Magic of Eberron which show all of the examples as Aberrations, but it does indicate that they can be Outsiders. Nowhere, however, does it indicate that they can be Constructs. I even pointed this out in my previous entry. If Living Breastplate is an Aberration, it stands to reason that the Boots would follow suit. That was all that I meant -- nothing more and nothing less.

Regardless of which Type is used, the Hit Dice were wrong. Constructs use a d10 not a d12.

Armor Class is still wrong (and it has nothing to do with Type) but with the fact that they don't have an AC of 18 because 10+2+2+2 still equals 16. If there is another bonus to Armor Class, it's missing.

Skills are still wrong. Furthermore, they are exactly the same as I mentioned earlier whether the creature is an Aberration or a Construct. .

In no way is this a criticism of The Gilded Duke, I just want to see a creature that lives up to its full potential; one that other DMs would be able to use without retrofitting it. It makes for a better creature.

Debby

[DracoDei]

So the book says Constructs can't be symbiotes? So what? He wanted to change that, he changed that. Perhaps he should underline the fact that he changed that a bit more, but if he likes the rules, why should the wheel be re-invented?

[Debihuman]

I have no problem with it; I just won't vote for it. My only regret is that I really like the idea and am simply disappointed by the lackluster execution. This is a competition after all.

Debby

[The Gilded Duke]

Thought I already changed the AC, updating it now, already updated the skills. Yeah, I didn't mean to get all defensive, or appear to get that way, just was a little suprised at the whole construct abberration objection, which was a central idea to the monster. The stat block suggestions you have pointed out have all been valid then helpful.

With Eberron all of the symbionts being aberration fit with the setting and the perversions of the Delkyr. I was seeking to use similar rules to make a monster similar in feel to say the Raggamofynns from MM 2. Where similar monsters, clothing that preys upon the helpless are set up as constructs.

The boots that I was writing about are magical boots, but still boots. They aren't abberations pretending to be boots, or outside ideas of boots. Thus the construct type seems to fit best.

As constructs they don't need to eat, sleep, or breath which an aberration would.

Now the speed is a disadvantage, for a time I was considering putting them at 5 feet a round. For this I was using the Abberation symbiont in Magic of Eberron as a guide, trying to make the powers similar, and the offensive capabilities about the same.

Many of them have 5 foot movement speed, or other heavy restrictions. I did make the Symbiont a little bit more beneficial then others of its CR but its ego is also considerably higher.

Lastly, I read through the Symbiont sections again in ECS and Magic of Eberron and I'm not seeing anywhere that it says symbiont is a subtype restricted to specific types of creatures. Outsider symbionts have a bonus to their ego score, and the example symbionts are all Aberration but I'm not seeing where it is listed that they have to be of those two types.

[Sir Shadow]

Grrr... I have two concepts for this one, but I'm not sure which to go with :/ I might just have to write both up and see which one I like best...

BTW, I don't recall the symbiont subtype being restricted to any type... but if it were restricted, I wouldn't imagine that construct would be one of them. I would rather consider something like humanoid to be a restricted type...

[DracoDei]

Sir Shadow: I suggest you summarize both your ideas in this thread and see what people have to say about each of them.

[Debihuman]

Thought I already changed the AC, updating it now, already updated the skills. Yeah, I didn't mean to get all defensive, or appear to get that way, just was a little suprised at the whole construct abberration objection, which was a central idea to the monster. The stat block suggestions you have pointed out have all been valid then helpful.

No worries there. You handled it just fine. See, now you're explaining your critter and that's what's needed. There's nothing wrong with changing types as long as you explain it. Unfortunately, I don't think your updates took.

With Eberron all of the symbionts being aberration fit with the setting and the perversions of the Delkyr. I was seeking to use similar rules to make a monster similar in feel to say the Raggamofynns from MM 2. Where similar monsters, clothing that preys upon the helpless are set up as constructs.

However, raggamofynns don't have the symbiont subtype. You need to stick with one or the other and not mix them. Symbionts by definition are living and Constructs aren't. Mixing the two is not a good idea.

The boots that I was writing about are magical boots, but still boots. They aren't abberations pretending to be boots, or outside ideas of boots. Thus the construct type seems to fit best.

If they are simply magical boots, then they are no better than a magic item and they lose everything that's super cool about them.

Now the speed is a disadvantage, for a time I was considering putting them at 5 feet a round. For this I was using the Abberation symbiont in Magic of Eberron as a guide, trying to make the powers similar, and the offensive capabilities about the same.

Again, don't mix types - pick one and stick with it. It makes for a much better designed creature. It's either a Construct or an Aberration.

Many of them have 5 foot movement speed, or other heavy restrictions. I did make the Symbiont a little bit more beneficial then others of its CR but its ego is also considerably higher.

Shoes by definition imply a faster speed than 5 feet. It's their nature.

Lastly, I read through the Symbiont sections again in ECS and Magic of Eberron and I'm not seeing anywhere that it says symbiont is a subtype restricted to specific types of creatures. Outsider symbionts have a bonus to their ego score, and the example symbionts are all Aberration but I'm not seeing where it is listed that they have to be of those two types.

It didn't specifically state it, but the mention of them being living creatures [page 299 ECS], kinda precludes it. They couldn't be Undead either. That said, you could go with Construct (Living, Symbiont). Living Constructs are different from normal ones as they have a Constitution score.

See Glossary on Wizard's site here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...subtype&alpha=

Spoiler

Show

living construct subtype

A living construct is a new subtype of construct, a created being given sentience and free will through powerful and complex creation enchantments. Living constructs combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures, as detailed below.

Features: A living construct derives its Hit Dice, base attack bonus progression, saving throws, and skill points from the class it selects.

Traits: A living construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

• Unlike other constructs, a living construct has a Constitution score. A living construct does not gain bonus hit points by size but gains (or loses) bonus hit points through a Constitution bonus (or penalty) as with other living creatures.
  
• Unlike other constructs, a living construct does not have low-light vision or darkvision.
  
• Unlike other constructs, a living construct is not immune to mind-influencing effects.
  
• Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.
  
• A living construct cannot heal damage naturally.
  
• Unlike other constructs, living constructs are subject to critical hits, effects requiring a Fort save, death from massive damage, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects.
  
• Unlike other constructs, a living construct can use the run action.
• Living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a living construct can be healed by a cure light wounds spell or a repair light damage spell, for example, and a living construct is vulnerable to a harm spell. However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct.
  
• A living construct responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points. A living construct with 0 hit points is disabled, just like a living creature. He can only take a single move action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his hit points are less than 0 and greater than -10, a living construct is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and he cannot perform any actions. However, an inert living construct does not lose additional hit points unless more damage is dealt to him, as with a living creature that is stable.
  
• Can be raised or resurrected.
  
• Does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes' feast and potions. Does not need to sleep, but must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.

Source: MM3

One last thing--why does donning and removing the boots cause 1d3 Wisdom damage? It's a lot of damage for such a small creature. I would have guessed Dexterity Damage as the wearer would be limping from having a symbiont attach itself to his feet, but what was your rationale for it causing Wisdom damage?

The net gain from these boots is the Endurance Feat and +10 movement speed at the loss of 1d3 Wisdom. This is not a good trade off. Most adventurers would be better off saving their money for good pair magical boots.

Debby

[Sir Shadow]

Well, 'living creature' can be strangely vague at times... undead could be considered living. All this talk of symbionts suddenly makes me write up a plant one...

as for the Wis damage, it makes sense to me considering the boot's desire. It wants to see new places regardless of the danger...

[The Gilded Duke]

Yeah in my mind it still works better as a construct. As far as the equipping and removing damage, wisdom fits with the idea of the boots causing recklessness, and it also is just ability damage, not ability drain. If you keep the boots on for a while you heal the ability damage, but at the same time it is an incentive not to take the boots off.

One of the other reasons I wanted the slow movement speed is for them to have a reason to need people. They like to travel, if they were fast on their own they would have no reason to bond with people. Also, while a shoe might fit an idea of speed, it is a shoe without legs and without a foot. I'm imagining it looking more like a pair of boots tied together making a bunch of little steps quickly rather then an invisible person wearing visible boots.

The Living Construct is a good suggestion, I might switch over to it. However I don't see the whole living thing that central to the symbiont type. I've got a few ideas floating around for undead symbionts and elemental symbionts that could be fun.

[The Gilded Duke]

While they can't communicate with their host they can still force the host to take certain actions. As far as the low ego score, that is actually a pretty high ego score compared to other symbionts of a similar challenge rating.

As far as story goes I find the idea of being abducted by your own boots while eating breakfast much more interesting then boots whispering to your mind trying to tempt you to go explore.

I was thinking trackless step, but Endurance and Run are pretty powerful feats in the right situation.

[Debihuman]

It would have been better if the symbiont entry had actually spelled out this out. Even the errata on ECS had nothing to say on this. Blame WotC for their poor editing and proofreading. And since it doesn't say that you "can't" do this, I'll just shut up now.

What makes the symbiont interesting to a host? We know what a symbiont wants, but why would a host bother with these boots? A wizard with low hit points puts them on, takes them off, and could take 6 points of ability damage, potentially knocking him unconscious. That's more damage than a Living Breastplate can do and it has 2 HD. Remember, lost points return only at the rate of one a day. A really unlucky character who removes his boots at night and puts them on during the day could end up unconcious rather quickly.

Furthermore the benefits gained from These Boots isn't anything really special. Rangers gain Endurance at 3rd level. Most characters wouldn't use the Run feat as they'd rather have horses and let them do the running. A light horse only costs 75 gp. I'd rather see These Boots as having immunity to Otto's Irresistable Dance and as having tremorsense 60 ft.

Debby

[DracoDei]

No adventurer worth his salt would ever take them off once they were on unless they wanted to get rid of them... or MAYBE if the GM is a stickler for details and makes the roll for athlete's foot if they wear them more than a week straight they might only put them on at the start of an adventure...

[Lappy9000]

Symbiotic boots.


.....dang *throws current entry in the trash and begins a fruitless brainstorm for a worthy competitor*

I don't think I can beat that kind of awesome

[Debihuman]

No adventurer worth his salt would ever take them off once they were on unless they wanted to get rid of them... or MAYBE if the GM is a stickler for details and makes the roll for athlete's foot if they wear them more than a week straight they might only put them on at the start of an adventure...

You can probably smell them from a mile away if they are worn too long. Ewww.

Debby

[kopout]

An awesome thing for These Boots would be to make them seven leaguers. A kind of limited teliport that takes you an exact distance (traditionally seven leagues) in a straight line. And the choice of when to activate it is determined by a char based check by the player and an ego based check by the Boots. So if the boots want to go somewhere you don't or you want to go some where the boots don't you have to beet them on an opposed check. If char is your dump stat you would want to take them off real quick.

[SlaadLord]

SlaadLord, I love what you did. Just one itsy bitsy nit pick -- in Environment stat block it should say "(See Below)" not "(See Above)."

And to answer your question about who puts ranks in Knowledge (Local), Rogues, Sorcerers, and Wizards have this as a class skill.

Much obliged. For the record, I have never known a character that actually put ranks in Knowledge (local) for any reason other than the ability to make rolls against a DC greater than 10. Also, thanks. I will change the Environment entry.

[Debihuman]

Well, the Janus golem is up. Does the CR look okay? I've never been really good at guesstimating CR.

Debby

[SlaadLord]

Debby: I like the Janus Golem, great job. The CR is about what I'd give something like that.

Jergmo: Is it just me, or does your creature bear an incredible similarity to the Ethereal Doppelganger and Reason Stealer from the MM2?

[DracoDei]

Have now posted my entry in the main thread. Still missing part of the skills, and some of it might not be very clear, so tell me what you think.


I am looking forward to seeing the personalities of the Roads less traveled. In any case, something that grants BONUSES to creatures attacking it in melee is certainly interesting although the initiative thing might get funky with people moving in and out of range, depending on if you mean that that would cause a rise/fall of initiative as it happens.
The hitpoints seem very low for a CR 30 creature. Lower the CR, or raise HD and/or Constitution.


P.S. if someone can give the text for the "Immobilized" condition and/or verify that Fharliangn (sp!?) has the quarterstaff for his favored weapon, I would be much obliged. I left my books at my house and am currently at my parents'.

[SlaadLord]

To Dracodei: Immobilized is a 4th edition condition and doesn't exist in 3.5E. The Quarterstaff is Farlaghan's favored weapon.