"S'lesss than what you took from me"

[SteveMB]

4) Let's go back to Wanda's origins. She's listed as being from a long-lost tribe, not from Faq.

That doesn't necessarily imply such a distinction -- the names "Plaid" (the tribe) and "Gobwin Knob" (the place) have no obvious connection, so why shouldn't "Croatan" be the name of the tribe that inhabited "Faq"?

Other than that, you have some good points, and may very well be right.

[Eisen]

That doesn't necessarily imply such a distinction -- the names "Plaid" (the tribe) and "Gobwin Knob" (the place) have no obvious connection, so why shouldn't "Croatan" be the name of the tribe that inhabited "Faq"?

Other than that, you have some good points, and may very well be right.

You bring up something that's been bothering me.

Stanley suceeded Saline IV as the Overlord of the Plaid Tribe. But the city is called Gobwin Knob, and the titular residents are mercenary units only ALLIED to Plaid, not controlled.

So how did Plaid come into control of GK? Where were they from prior? Wanda at one point mentions Stanley controlled 11 cities...what cities did that include? Was one of them Faq?

Also, just setting aside the "Stanley the regicide" junk for a sec...the Gobwins randomly turned on the Plaid, killing Saline. And just as randomly turned back to Stanley. Why?

And where, and when, did Stanley receive the Arkenhammer? I feel like there's a connection in all these things that I'm missing.

Hmm. Arkenhammer. Banhammer. Hmm.

[DevilDan]

Stanley suceeded Saline IV as the Overlord of the Plaid Tribe. But the city is called Gobwin Knob, and the titular residents are mercenary units only ALLIED to Plaid, not controlled.

Do we know that Stanley was a Plaid?

So how did Plaid come into control of GK? Where were they from prior? Wanda at one point mentions Stanley controlled 11 cities...what cities did that include? Was one of them Faq?

GK was Saline's city before it was Stanley's. If Faq was one of those cities and was lost to an enemy of Stanley's, why would Stanley flee toward it?

[SteveMB]

Do we know that Stanley was a Plaid?

Yes, from the (initial) Cast Page.

[DevilDan]

Yes, from the (initial) Cast Page.

D'oh. I meant Saline IV. Of course Stanley was a Plaid; he says so himself when he changes his title to "Tool."

[Altima]

So how did Plaid come into control of GK? Where were they from prior? Wanda at one point mentions Stanley controlled 11 cities...what cities did that include? Was one of them Faq?

Not possible. Stanley lost those 10 cities to the RCC, who had no idea of Faq's existance (including Transylvito, who even commented on its existance being so close).

[DevilDan]

Not possible. Stanley lost those 10 cities to the RCC, who had no idea of Faq's existance (including Transylvito, who even commented on its existance being so close).

Technically, Wanda didn't specify that all the cities were lost to the RCC.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html

[HPV]

Janis said that Sizemore "didn't make much progress" in teaching him Hippiemancy, and Sizemore said that he "didn't expect to be very good at it." That suggests that some progress was made and that he was did have some, however small, degree of proficiency in that discipline.

Later, he says that he is "only good" at his own specialty, not that he can't do anything but dirtamancy.

Yes, I may be grasping at straws; I think that it is not an unreasonable conclusion, though.

Maybe a little late to bring this point to the discussion, but was rereading the whole comic this morning (off work sick, meh) and noticed the following which is kind of relevant to the whole question of casters dabbling outside their field:
Sizemore and I have been talking "magic theory". He says he's one of the few people in Erfworld who studies magic outside his speciality
It supports the notion that such study is possible, but also makes it clear that it's by no means the norm.
Unfortunately it doesn't answer the question of how rare casters like Wanda, who can but choose not to, are, but I'd theorise that if the potential for being multi-talented was commonplace then, given how useful it could be, extracurricular study wouldn't be nearly as rare as Sizemore suggests, even if it took Overlords ordering their casters to study non-specialised 'mancies. *shrug*

[Aquillion]

Maybe a little late to bring this point to the discussion, but was rereading the whole comic this morning (off work sick, meh) and noticed the following which is kind of relevant to the whole question of casters dabbling outside their field:
Sizemore and I have been talking "magic theory". He says he's one of the few people in Erfworld who studies magic outside his speciality
It supports the notion that such study is possible, but also makes it clear that it's by no means the norm.
Unfortunately it doesn't answer the question of how rare casters like Wanda, who can but choose not to, are, but I'd theorise that if the potential for being multi-talented was commonplace then, given how useful it could be, extracurricular study wouldn't be nearly as rare as Sizemore suggests, even if it took Overlords ordering their casters to study non-specialised 'mancies. *shrug*

This reminds me of something else I wanted to bring up: So far, all the non-croakamancy spells we've seen Wanda use have been through scrolls or other magical items (mind-altering dust on one servant).

Does this mean that her 'broad capability' is limited to simply being good at using one-shot scrolls, while the actual spells she knows are all croakamancy? It's just a thought, but thinking back, the fact that (for instance) she was shown using a scroll on Jillian seems fairly significant, especially now that it's been confirmed that those are 'canned' spells from her personal stash.

What I'm saying is, we might have been overestimating the breadth of Wanda's capabilities. She might just be a bit better at using scrolls outside her specialty than most other casters, rather than having full access to every type of magic directly.

(Of course, it might just be because she's refused to spend the time to actually learn any spells outside her specialty, despite having the capacity to do so.)

My understanding of Sizemore's studies, of course, is that they are purely theoretical, at least as far as he's concerned.

[SteveMB]

My understanding of Sizemore's studies, of course, is that they are purely theoretical, at least as far as he's concerned.

His comment "I'm good at nothing beyond my specialty" seems to me to imply that he's at least attempted to learn to use non-Dirtamancy magicks (if not, how would he know?) Perhaps his decision to give Hippiemancy a try was motivated by a bit of "maybe the horse will sing" desperation.

[HPV]

Good point Aquillion, Wanda does seem to use scrolls (etc) for her non croakamancy, from what we've seen so far.

However, a couple of possible holes in the theory that all out of speciality casting requires some sort of (one shot) item:

1) We only see the end of Sizemore's session with Janis on page 11, but there doesn't seem to be anything that might be a one shot item obviously lying around (maybe the giant psychedelic flower?).
Now, if (& it is a big "if") it's the case that Sizemore was trying to cast Hippiemancy directly, it would suggest to me, from his exchange with Wanda in the first few panels of P13, that Wanda is able to cast directly. Although, in fairness other parts of their exchange on P13 could support the idea that a scroll (etc) is needed. *shrug*

2) If Wanda's aptitude, & Sizemore's lack of it, is referring to the use of one shot items, we'll probably find out shortly, since Sizemore's probably going to be trying to use a Healomancy scroll on Wanda within the next strip or two.
Whether or not he'd be able to use such a scroll seemed less of a question than whether she had one in panel one P123. With Sizemore being the kind of guy he is (not massively confident), and this being a life or death situation, I'd expect him to raise his lack of ability outside Dirtamancy as a possible issue, especially as Maggie's around and could presumably try and use the scroll too.

That might well be inferring far too much from too little, but as I said, if extra-curricular aptitude is purely referring to the use of one-shots, I'd expect Sizemore's lack of ability to be brought to the fore, storywise, very, very soon.

[SteveD]

Actually, there are a few hints to Wanda's native Asiany Faqness. For one, in her room, is an asian-style room parctition divider thing. Which, of course, may be nothing.

Yeah, I concede the point.

But I'm still suspicious Wanda was referring to something else.

[DevilDan]

Yeah, I concede the point.

But I'm still suspicious Wanda was referring to something else.

Then there's the matter of her kimono.

[Alexei P]

You know, if sometimes prior to Page 81, someone came up on the boards with a theory that Jillian was actually a long-lost princess from a previously unheard-of side that nobody else knew about because it was completely veiled and reachable only by air or tunnel...

...everyone would have Occam Razor'ed the guy into next week. Including me.

I've opened this thread with 3 theories (and meanwhile a fourth, that Wanda referred to the Pliers, has added itself along the way), but privately, I'm with The Minx and SteveD. I think Croatan and Faq are not one and the same.

Not that I have much evidence. And my theories have turned out to be wrong plenty of times in the past. I don't know.

I just share the "gut feeling".

[SteveD]

Well, we've had hints about Jillian in earlier strips (like when Wanda calls her a Royal), but thanks for the support. :P

[Eisen]

Then there's the matter of her kimono.

You're all assuming a couple of things.

1) That Wanda's choice in decor was a sign of her heritage.
2) That Faq is the only Asian culture on Erf.

There's no factual information to support either of these. SHe might just like Asian-type stuff. And Croatoans might have been Chinese-esque.

[Aquillion]

You know, if sometimes prior to Page 81, someone came up on the boards with a theory that Jillian was actually a long-lost princess from a previously unheard-of side that nobody else knew about because it was completely veiled and reachable only by air or tunnel...

Wrong! People were speculating on that since page 39, when Wanda mentions she's a royal. The most common theory back then was that she was actually the rightful princess of the Plaid tribe, but the Croatian tribe was also often mentioned, given her connection to Wanda. (It was also suggested even earlier that Stanley did something to her -- Vinnie mentions it during his first conversation with Ansom.)

And if someone had suggested she was a princess before page 39, then yes, they would have been being stupid -- but that'd be because barely knew anything about her before then other than her name. It'd be like arguing that Duke Nozzle is actually Charlie. Sure, possible, but even if it turns out that it's randomly true, anyone who says it now would still be talking out of their ass.

Like I said, the authors of Erfworld don't seem to like completely random plot twists or shocking swerves. Everything important in the strip so far has either been fairly well hinted at beforehand, or has at least had a 'something dangerous/risky/mysterious exists here' foreshadowed beforehand. (Like with Charlie's unpredictability and untrustworthiness, which is mentioned before almost every one of his appearances; or with the riskiness of most of Parson's plans. Even Misty's death -- probably the most unexpected thing in the strip so far -- was heavily foreshadowed; there were constant warnings that any interference with her link could kill her.)

That's part of the reason why people who have completely off-the-wall theories get so much stuff thrown at them. There's been nothing in the strip so far to suggest that the authors do that sort of thing. Surprise is not as important a part of storytelling as many people here seem to think it is; many of the best, most classic stories in our world are constantly told again and again in slightly different forms to people who know exactly how they will end.

Sure, some tension is good, and not knowing what will happen is good for that. Not knowing who will win a battle, or if a plan will succeed, or things like that can all be very effective. But depending heavily on plot twists to move the story along is very bad; they're something poor authors do, and it's a sign that they can't write a more coherent plot that holds the reader's attention from start to finish. It's a cheap way to make it feel like you're telling an interesting or compelling story, without actually having to put in all the work.

[Alexei P]

Wrong! People were speculating on that since page 39, when Wanda mentions she's a royal. The most common theory back then was that she was actually the rightful princess of the Plaid tribe, but the Croatian tribe was also often mentioned, given her connection to Wanda.

Correct, and I remember thinking so along with the rest. That she was a Royal we knew about for a long time. That she belonged to a virtually invisible, untouchable side nobody mentioned before... not so much. Had the possibility been suggested on the forums back then, it would have been called too off-the-wall. Anyway, that wasn't meant as a major point in my argument.

As for "talking out of their ass"... Since when are small bits of innocent speculation stupid or wrong? I certainly don't believe it.

So, anyway, Faq and Croatan are not the same. Gut feeling. So neener-neener.

[Jural]

There is one option which also occurs to me...

Perhaps Wanda and Ansom were at one point allied, or in a relationship with each other. It ended badly, and is the basis of her comment, as well as the basis for Ansom leaving instead of killing her.

I can't find any evidence for or against it in the comic before the past two panels, mind you. But if I were to have seen Erfworld Page 122 in a vaccuum with no other context, I think that is the conclusion I would immediately jump to.


Personally, I think the most likely scenarios are either that Wanda loves Jillian, or that Wanda had her homeland destroyed by Ansom. I would assume her homeland was FAQ if not for the cast page, which frankly just puts it into slight doubt for me.

[#94]

put aside Jillian and Faq aside for a moment.

As far as i can tell we have yet to learn how Ansom obtained the Pliars, nor from whom he obtained them.

It has been postulated several times that, when they clashed Ansom was trying to get the Pliars as far from wanda as possible.

We know that Wanda hates Ansom (or at least Jetstone), we know this to be true due to the lack of a loyalty spell and her flat refusal to turn for Jill.

It has also been postulated that Ansom can be described as Grimacing when when Wanda utters the statement this thread is named for.

Is it Possible that Ansom, at some time in the past, took by force the Pliars from Wanda?

Therefor,

Is it possible that the Pliars are Already bound to Wanda?

If this were true could it be that she believed that should Ansom be foolish enough to try and force the Pliars to strike down their true master there either might be some repercussion for Ansom or that she might be able to exert some influence on the Pliars?

[DevilDan]

If Wanda knew more about the pliers, then it's something she seems to have hid from Parson. It was certainly something that Stanley would probably not know about either, making the whole thing even less likely.

If Ansom knew that there was a connection between the pliers and GK's croakamancer, then he played it close to the vest. He's cautious normally, so would he even risk bringing them together?

[#94]

She's already omitted a couple of things, most importantly her Stash. and i don't recall Parson ever asking her about the Pliars.

Ansom is only Cautious when he's taking time out from being totally, Completely Arrogant.

I'll freely admit that its a long shot, but theorizing fills the time between comic updates.

[SteveMB]

If Wanda knew more about the pliers, then it's something she seems to have hid from Parson. It was certainly something that Stanley would probably not know about either, making the whole thing even less likely.

Actually, that part of the theory makes sense. How do you suppose Stanley would react to the news that one of his underlings had attuned to the Arkenpliers (if that's the case)?

[The Old Hack]

Actually, that part of the theory makes sense. How do you suppose Stanley would react to the news that one of his underlings had attuned to the Arkenpliers (if that's the case)?

That would depend. He would still be Overlord, after all. And while just a Warlord, he wielded the Arkenhammer in the service of Saline IV. He might be perfectly fine with units in his service wielding the other Tools, or at least grudgingly accepting of it; it all depends on precisely what happened when Saline IV died. If the fall of the King actually was Stanley's plan, he might indeed be unhappy with having underlings possess attuned Arkentools...

[HandofShadows]

So, anyway, Faq and Croatan are not the same. Gut feeling. So neener-neener.

In the future you should ignore your gut. Wanda was a caster for Banhammer and was "seen" in one of the flashback pannels when Jillian told her story.

[HandofShadows]

If Wanda knew more about the pliers, then it's something she seems to have hid from Parson. It was certainly something that Stanley would probably not know about either, making the whole thing even less likely.

Wanda seesm to have hidden a great deal from a lot of people. Her stash, her relationship with Jillian, her past (Parson asked once and she ducked the question). Hiding things seems to be a bit of a self defence measure for her.

If Ansom knew that there was a connection between the pliers and GK's croakamancer, then he played it close to the vest. He's cautious normally, so would he even risk bringing them together?

It's very simple. Ansom didn't know who Wanda was until after she started talking to him and he got a good look at her. And when he does, he runs. Innocent people don't act like that. I suspect that before seeing Wanda at GK, Ansom though Wanda was dead.

[Lamech]

Actually, that part of the theory makes sense. How do you suppose Stanley would react to the news that one of his underlings had attuned to the Arkenpliers (if that's the case)?

"Maggie/Wanda see that underling there. Go to the magic kingdom and buy the most powerful suggestion spell, loyalty spell, and mind control spell you can find. he/she gets them all." At least thats what I would do... of course, I would have taken all my casters and Parson with me, if I decided to ditch, croaked Ceaser, ect...

[SteveMB]

In the future you should ignore your gut. Wanda was a caster for Banhammer and was "seen" in one of the flashback pannels when Jillian told her story.

Some posters theorize that Wanda was acquired by Faq from elsewhere the same way she was acquired by Gobwin Knob. IMO, that's highly unlikely, given Faq's isolation and isolationism. (Though admittedly not impossible; Jillian could have picked her up somehwere (double entendre purely intentional).)

It's very simple. Ansom didn't know who Wanda was until after she started talking to him and he got a good look at her. And when he does, he runs. Innocent people don't act like that. I suspect that before seeing Wanda at GK, Ansom though Wanda was dead.

Ansom clearly knew that she was Stanley's Croakamancer when he vented his anger at her for turning his men into "abominations". Given the value and rarity of casters, there presumably aren't all that many Croakamancers floating around Erfworld. OTOH, the connection might be more obscure if Wanda wasn't originally a Croakamancer (which would make sense; the situation in Faq wouldn't offer many opportunities for Croakamancy to be useful).

[HandofShadows]

Some posters theorize that Wanda was acquired by Faq from elsewhere the same way she was acquired by Gobwin Knob. IMO, that's highly unlikely, given Faq's isolation and isolationism. (Though admittedly not impossible; Jillian could have picked her up somewhere (double entendre purely intentional).)).

There is one thing that speaks fairly stongly against Wanda being picked up. Her eye's. Only people we know to be from Faq (other than Parson of course) have had normal human eyes or at least they have a white of the eye.

Ansom clearly knew that she was Stanley's Croakamancer when he vented his anger at her for turning his men into "abominations". Given the value and rarity of casters, there presumably aren't all that many Croakamancers floating around Erfworld. OTOH, the connection might be more obscure if Wanda wasn't originally a Croakamancer (which would make sense; the situation in Faq wouldn't offer many opportunities for Croakamancy to be useful).

I think Wanda was a croakamancer in Faq. In the pic, part of her garment is red (all the people there seem to be casters and they are color coded for convience). As you say she would not have much chance ot use those skills so Ansom might not know she had them. Or if he did know, did he think that Wanda was croaked and her being still alive was something he never even occured to him. (Whcih is nothing new IMO, I think a LOT of things never occured to him)

[SteveMB]

I think Wanda was a croakamancer in Faq. In the pic, part of her garment is red (all the people there seem to be casters and they are color coded for convience).

The pic shows Wanda in a dominatrix outfit, holding a whip, in the context of Jillian describing how she encountered "a caster" from Faq after the first time she got captured in Ansom's service. I think it's clearly implied that it's a flashback to the interrogation session at Orgchart.