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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki-Rin

    .Disclaimer...I need to edit this introduction still, but I wanted to get the class online rather than keep putting it off until I had time to revise this blurb I had written while creating the PrC in our OA campaign. *

    Moto Chuma has found his path. *For too long he has tried to fit one particular mold or another. *He now knows that for good or ill, he must walk his own path. *Years from now, he will establish a monastery in Unicorn lands and teach his art to those who would learn it. *For now though, there are more pressing matters to attend to; the hataberu, The Wasting, and the minions of The Shadowlands freely walking the lands of the Empire.

    While the teachings of Shinsei are central to his philosophy, Chuma sees his path to be more active in combating the evils of The Shadowlands. *The goal should not be to shepherd the thunder, but to be the thunder. *To this end, the daisho becomes an important and central piece of the order. *To strike down more powerful minions of The Shadowlands requires weapons blessed and empowered by your ancestors. *

    While what is honorable is of great import to Moto Chuma, but he does not believe that bushido should be followed blindly. *One’s conscience should guide them more than a strict code of rules.


    Pre-Requisites:
    Alignment: LG or LN
    Base Attack Bonus: +5
    Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency Wakizashi, Empty Hand Mastery (Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Fists of Iron, Sunder, Eagle Claw Attack, Roundabout Kick, 4 or more ranks in Bluff). *The details for Empty Hand Mastery may be found on page 80 of Oriental Adventures.
    Skills: 4 ranks each of Tumble, Bluff, Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Shadowlands); and 5 ranks each of Handle Animal and Ride.
    Special: *Prospective members must be accepted into the Brotherhood by a current member

    Class Skills:
    Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (Shadowlands), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.
    Skill Points per Level: 4 + Int Mod

    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: *Members of the Brotherhood receive no additional weapon or armor proficiencies. *They suffer the same penalties for wearing armor that monks do.
    Monk Abilities: *Members of the Brotherhood have the unarmed damage, AC Bonus, and speed of a monk with as many levels as his Ki-Rin levels plus his monk levels. *Add the BAB of both classes together and consult the Multiple Unarmed Attacks Table (Oriental Advetures page 34 and reproduced below) to derive the number of attacks beyond the first the character can make during a round when executing a full attack action.

    {table]
    [tr]
    [td]
    BAB
    [/td]
    [td]
    Additional Unarmed Attacks
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    0
    [/td]
    [td]
    -
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    1
    [/td]
    [td]
    -
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    2
    [/td]
    [td]
    -
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    -
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]
    +1
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]
    +2
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    +3
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    7
    [/td]
    [td]
    +4/+1
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    8
    [/td]
    [td]
    +5/+2
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    9
    [/td]
    [td]
    +6/+3
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    10
    [/td]
    [td]
    +7/+4/+1
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    11
    [/td]
    [td]
    +8/+5/+2
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    12
    [/td]
    [td]
    +9/+6/+3
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    13
    [/td]
    [td]
    +10/+7/+4/+1
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    14
    [/td]
    [td]
    +11/+8/+5/+2
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    15
    [/td]
    [td]
    +12/+9/+6/+3
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    {table]
    [tr]
    [td]
    Level
    [/td]
    [td]
    BAB
    [/td]
    [td]
    Fort
    [/td]
    [td]
    Ref
    [/td]
    [td]
    Will
    [/td]
    [td]Special[/td]
    [/tr]

    [tr]
    [td]
    1
    [/td]
    [td]
    0
    [/td]
    [td]
    2
    [/td]
    [td]
    2
    [/td]
    [td]
    2
    [/td]
    [td]Ancestral Daisho[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    2
    [/td]
    [td]
    1
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]Dance of the Daisho[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    2
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]Detect Taint, Flying Kick[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]Mettle, Gatherer of Winds[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]
    3
    [/td]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]As the Body, Wisdom of the Ki-Rin[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    4
    [/td]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]Snatch Arrow, Fury of the Ki-Rin[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    7
    [/td]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]
    5
    [/td]
    [td]Ki Strike +1, Ride the Wind[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    8
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]Diamond Soul, Ancestral Guidance[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    9
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]
    6
    [/td]
    [td]Walk Through the Mountains[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    10
    [/td]
    [td]
    7
    [/td]
    [td]
    7
    [/td]
    [td]
    7
    [/td]
    [td]
    7
    [/td]
    [td]Riddle of Invulnerability, Mind of the Ki-Rin[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    Ancestral Daisho: *This mirrors the 1st level ability of the samurai class as described on page 21 of Oriental Adventures. *As an alternate, the Rokugan book shows an XP cost that can be paid in place of gold for advancing your weaponry on page 31. *You may or may not wish to allow this option for both samurai and members of the Brotherhood in your campaign.

    Dance of the Daisho: *Both the Katana and the Wakizashi can be used as unarmed attacks per the monk rules/restrictions. *However, if one wanted to wield both simultaneously, they would still need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana.

    Detect Taint: *At will, a brother or sister of the ki-rin can Detect Taint as described on page 101 of Oriental Adventures. *Outside the featured campaign setting of Rokugan, they may Detect Evil instead.

    Flying Kick: *As per the feat in Oriental Adventures on page 62, however pre-requisites do not apply.

    Mettle: *At 4th level, a brother/sister of the ki-rin’s special blessing allows him to shrug off magical effects that would otherwise harm him/her. *If he/she makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spells effect, he/she suffers no effect from that spell at all.

    Gatherer of Winds: *As per the feat in Rokugan on page 50. *This ability grants a +2 AC bonus vs. Ranged Attacks.

    As the Body: *A brother or sister of the ki-rin can do their unarmed damage with a daisho. *For example, the katana is no longer limited to d10 as base damage; instead a monk used his/her unarmed damage per the table in the Player’s Handbook.

    Wisdom of the Ki-Rin: Before progressing to this level, a brother or sister of the ki-rin must seek out the living embodiment of their clan, the ki-rin, and offer to assist it in any task it chooses. *In exchange, the ki-rin will impart a portion of its wisdom and teachings to the monk granting him/her a permanent +2 Inherent bonus to Wisdom.

    Snatch Arrow: *As per the feat in Sword and Fist.

    Ki Strike +1: *As per the Player’s Handbook.

    Ride the Wind: Once per day for every two levels, the brother/sister may fly as per the spell or confer the gift of flight on another. *Treat this as if bestowed by a caster of the sum of the characters Monk levels + Ki-Rin levels.

    Diamond Soul: *As per the Player’s Handbook. *SR of 20 + the sum of your monk and Ki-Rin levels.

    Ancestral Guidance: At 8th level a brother/sister can use Commune With Greater Spirit once per two weeks as a cleric of the monk’s character level. *He/she need not pay the XP component cost for the spell.

    Fury of the Ki-Rin: *Once plus his/her wisdom modifier times per day, a monk may invoke thunder on their unarmed strikes doing an additional d6 sonic damage per successful unarmed attack. *The aura lasts for 1 round for every two levels of the brother/sister of the ki-rin. *This ability may only be used against those who carry the Shadowlands taint or who are evil in alignment.

    Walk Through the Mountains: *Like the ki-rin, a brother/sister of 9th level or higher can assume an ethereal state for 2 rounds per level per day, as per the spell etherealness. *The brother/sister may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day so long as the total number of rounds does not exceed twice his/her level.

    Riddle of Invulnerability: *At 10th level brothers/sisters gain damage reduction 3/-.

    Mind of the Ki-Rin: At 10th level brothers/sisters can communicate telepathically, but only with those they could normally converse with. *Thus language restrictions, and distance apply.
    "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zherog's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    I'm not going to be able to offer you a lot of feedback on balance and such, because I'm not familiar with OA at all. I can offer a few things, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Pre-Requisites:
    Alignment – LG or LN
    Base Attack Bonus +5
    Proficiency with daisho
    Accepted into the Brotherhood by a current member
    Spoken with a Ki-Rin
    Empty Hand Mastery
    Tumble: 4
    Knowledge (Religion): 4
    Knowledge (Shadowlands): 4
    Handle Animal: 5
    Ride: 5
    This doesn't match the "general" format of pre-reqs, and could probably be made easier to read if you altered it slightly:

    Alignment: Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral
    Feats: Empty Hand Mastery (I'm assuming it's a feat), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Daisho) (I'm assuming it's a weapon and it's exotic)
    Skills: Tumble 4 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks, Knowledge (Shadowlands) 4 ranks, Handle Animal 5 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
    Special: Spoken with a Ki-Rin, and also Accepted into the Brotherhood by a current member

    Formatting aside, the requirements seem really steep for a monk. Unless there's OA rules that change this, Knowledge (Shadowlands), Handle Animal and Ride are all cross class skills. That's is a lot of skill ranks to require cross-class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Class Skills:
    Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (arcane), Knowledge (Shadowlands), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.
    You forgot to mention how many skill points per level. ;) Also, do you have Knowledge (Arcana) and Perform on your list for any particular reason, other than they're also Monk skills? My general rule of thumb is that a skill list assigned to a Prestige Class should fit the new class, not the most likely base class used to enter the class. If that makes sense. ;)

    <<snipped the table>>
    You don't mention weapon and armor proficiencies at the beginning of the class features description. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Dance of the Daisho: *Both the Katana and the Wakizashi can be used as unarmed attacks per the monk rules/restrictions. *However, if one wanted to wield both simultaneously, they would still need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana.
    Do you mean they can flurry with the weapons? Is that the intent of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    As the Body: *A brother or sister of the ki-rin can do their unarmed damage with a daisho. *For example, the katana is no longer limited to d10 as base damage; instead a monk used his/her unarmed damage per the table in the Player’s Handbook.
    This isn't as good as it sounds, at least as written. You should add a first level ability that allows this class to stake with monk levels for determining unarmed damage. Otherwise, the d10 of the sword will always be better, unless the monk enters this class real late. You may also want to increase other monk abilities, too, such as ki, AC Bonus and/or Fast Movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Wisdom of the Ki-Rin: Before progressing to this level, a brother or sister of the ki-rin must seek out the living embodiment of their clan, the ki-rin, and offer to assist it in any task it chooses. *In exchange, the ki-rin will impart a portion of its wisdom and teachings to the monk granting him/her a permanent +2 bonus to Wisdom.
    The timing of this is a little ironic, as there has been a discussion on another board a frequent about whether or not pre-reqs within a class (such as this) are good or bad. I'm generally not a fan of them as a concept, though this one isn't too bad. It has the potential, though, for a DM to screw the player by not arranging for the meeting to take place, and that could be a problem.

    You should type the bonus - probably Inherent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Ki Strike +1: *As per the Player’s Handbook.
    Very weak class ability, especially for this late in the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Ride the Wind: Once per day for every two levels, the brother/sister may fly as per the spell or confer the gift of flight on another.
    Caster level? Duration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Diamond Soul: *As per the Player’s Handbook. *SR of level +10.
    Class level, or character level? If it's class level, it's very weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Fury of the Ki-Rin: *Once plus his/her wisdom modifier times per day, a monk may invoke thunder on their unarmed strikes doing an additional d6 sonic damage per successful unarmed attack. *The aura lasts for 1 round for every two levels of the brother/sister of the ki-rin. *This ability may only be used against those who carry the Shadowlands taint or who are evil in alignment.
    Nice, but weak in my opinion. I think I'd remove the limit on the number of times per day - the ability is already focused enough to make it so it won't be used against everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Riddle of Invulnerability: *At 10th level brothers/sisters gain damage reduction 20/+1.
    This class is obviously written for 3.0? ;)

    It sounds like a great ability, but this is kind of weak. It's really only going to protect the Monk from the attacks of animals, since just about every humanoid foe at this point will have a magical weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    Mind of the Ki-Rin: At 10th level brothers/sisters can communicate telepathically, but only with those they could normally converse with. *Thus language restrictions, and distance apply
    Nice flavor ability.

    ***

    I know I sounded really critical (it's becoming a common theme, it seems). Some of my comments might be trumped by things in OA that make the abilities better, of course. The class has nice flavor, in my opinion, but comes up a little short on the power scale. We're talking about a character who is at least 7th level (and quite likely higher) upon entering this class. That means we're talking about a 17th level character when discussing the 10th level ability. I want more bang for my buck at 17th character level.
    John Ling
    Frog God Games Lead Pathfinder Developer

    Note: unless explicitly stated otherwise, opinions in my posts are my own and not those of Frog God Games.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    You're feedback is very much appreciated and critical feedback is the best kind IMHO. Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.

    I'll get to work on cleaning things up. There are some clarifications that need to be made that will answer some of your questions, but I want to wait until I'm at home with my OA book so I can reference pages. I'll do some of the format stuff from here though.
    "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zherog's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Melifaxis
    You're feedback is very much appreciated and critical feedback is the best kind IMHO. *Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. *
    I agree about critical feedback; I just sometimes feel bad when I preview my post and it seems so negative. ;)
    John Ling
    Frog God Games Lead Pathfinder Developer

    Note: unless explicitly stated otherwise, opinions in my posts are my own and not those of Frog God Games.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    Ok, I cleaned up a lot of the stuff that I took for granted when I wrote the PrC, and yes it was the glory days of 3.0 ;)

    I'll have to read up on 3.5 damage reduction. I'm in my first 3.5 campaign but I didn't want to read up on it to prevent myself from meta-gaming. Made me feel like a rookie again, at least a little.

    These changes should clarify some of your questions and shift your opinion on the power of the PrC at least a bit. I'll keep working on it up until the deadline.
    "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog
    The timing of this is a little ironic, as there has been a discussion on another board a frequent about whether or not pre-reqs within a class (such as this) are good or bad. *I'm generally not a fan of them as a concept, though this one isn't too bad. *It has the potential, though, for a DM to screw the player by not arranging for the meeting to take place, and that could be a problem.
    I think it all comes down to the quality of the DM.

    Players should be free to pursue whatever paths they wish, but rewards often require risk and effort. A character of sufficient level should have only moderate trouble in locating a ki-rin. After all, they probably have powerful companions that are spellcasters or the financial resources to hire one.

    Things like this add a great deal to a campaign when executed properly.

    My 2 copper :D
    "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    Maybe you could try Damage Reduction: 10/ - (meaning no matter what 10 damage reduct)
    And it stacks with other damage reductions like the barbarians.
    The 10th level ability is the best ability/can be. Maybe 10/- is too powrful but it is just a suggestion.
    The Barbarian gets at Lv 20 Dr 5/- so maybe its reasonable.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    I think, given the overall reduced numbers in 3.5's DR system, 5/- is a better fit if you were to go with a non-type. Do the Ki-Rin have any DR listed in a 3.5 source? If so, that might be the best match.
    John Ling
    Frog God Games Lead Pathfinder Developer

    Note: unless explicitly stated otherwise, opinions in my posts are my own and not those of Frog God Games.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    Ah, and one other final comment. You'll want to specify that monks can freely multi-class with this class. Otherwise, by the core rules at least (it might be different in OA), a Monk cannont take a level in this class and then take another monk level ever again.
    John Ling
    Frog God Games Lead Pathfinder Developer

    Note: unless explicitly stated otherwise, opinions in my posts are my own and not those of Frog God Games.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Screen Name] Melifaxis' Brotherhood of the Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog
    I think, given the overall reduced numbers in 3.5's DR system, 5/- is a better fit if you were to go with a non-type. *Do the Ki-Rin have any DR listed in a 3.5 source? *If so, that might be the best match.

    I don't think it has been 3.5'ed yet. I went with 3/-

    5/- seemed too much in conjunction with all the other abilities
    "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."

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