Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[Winterwind]

Planning on starting a Thousand Sons army. Question: I know that Thousand Sons is notoriously close combat weak. Should I spring for a hard close combat unit (right now Khorne Berserkers is what's on the list. Rather have Plague Marines, but budget constraints and all...) or just go straight with the shooty?

If budget is a concern, I'd like to point out that the Chaos Battleforce box contains a squad of 8 Khorne Berserkers, plus a couple of further units, for a comparatively low price. I don't know if those other units fit into your army concept (Possessed Marines are pretty much exactly what does not fit Thousand Sons, even though it would be yet another unit that excells at close combat), but if you want to include Berserkers, I figure they might as well.

[Cristo Meyers]

If budget is a concern, I'd like to point out that the Chaos Battleforce box contains a squad of 8 Khorne Berserkers, plus a couple of further units, for a comparatively low price. I don't know if those other units fit into your army concept (Possessed Marines are pretty much exactly what does not fit Thousand Sons, even though it would be yet another unit that excells at close combat), but if you want to include Berserkers, I figure they might as well.

That box would be the base of my army, yes. Use 5 of the 15 Marines that come with it as Chosen Marines, add 2 squads of Thousand Sons, 5 Terminators, 5 Havocs, 2 Obliterators, 1 Land Raider, and a Sorceror Lord.

The Possessed Marines struck me as a bit out of place too. Wonder if there'll be enough parts to make them into regular marines...

[Winterwind]

There are enough arms, close combat weapons and bolt-weapons for that; there are not enough heads and backpacks though, so that squad would look at the very least slightly mutated. (I should know, I am currently in the process of putting its contents together )
Scratch that; after counting, I come to the conclusion the heads should suffice, too. Now, the breastplates and bodies most definitely will not, but those could likely pass as decorations. Legs won't suffice, either, but they look normal enough for the most part, too.


Now it depends on how you look at it; nominally, in a proper Thousand Sons army, there shouldn't be any mutations at all (but neither should there be Berserkers or, even, normal Chaos Space Marines, for that matter). On the other hand, Tzeentch's very domain is change, and he likes to hand out mutations; if your army is, actually, some fraction under the command of a powerful cabal of sorcerers, led by a particularly mighty one, on the eternal search for lore and with ties to the Thousand Sons, but not actually affected by Ahriman's Rubric on the whole, that would explain the presence of non-Thousand Son units in an army nevertheless mostly in the Thousand Sons' image and with many of them in their ranks - but then, the Tzeentchian affinity of the army would very well account for the presence of Possessed or, at the very least, 'gifted' Marines as well.

[onasuma]

My plague marines are budget and Ive been complemented on them (granted, more often than not for the steeds they ride) a few times.

My simple formula is:

Normal chaos marine squad + drill + greenstuff = 10 plague marines for the price of 7.

Simply assemble as normal and drill 0-12 holes of varying sizes in them. Then, take some green stuff, push it onto where you want it to be and leave it for 10-15 min. After that time, take any object you like, and "smeer" it around. Leave holes, lines or anything else behind to make it look fungal. Then paint it green and layer brown inks on top. Simple and effective.

[Winterwind]

There's a nicely illustrated guide for doing pretty much what onasuma describes here. I plan to use it to enhance my own Plague Marines a bit.

[Zorg]

...very well, actually.

IIRC, that's a S6 Large Blast being used against AV 10 Open-Topped trukks. The more Hammerheads, the more Doom (tm) for da Boys.

Really, the only thing more terrifying is a trio of Warwalkers dual-wielding Scatterlasers. 24, S6 shots per round FTW

Blast weapons only hit with full strength against vehicles if the centre of the blast is over the vehicle, otherwise it's a S3 hit. Of course one good hit and they're probably screwed... but not as screwed as against the warwalkers.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Blast weapons only hit with full strength against vehicles if the centre of the blast is over the vehicle, otherwise it's a S3 hit. Of course one good hit and they're probably screwed... but not as screwed as against the warwalkers.

Wait... really? Stupid 5th Edition.

Do troops in open-topped transports at least take a full strength shot, or something?

Hmm... I think this makes Fire Prisms somewhat less awesome. Still very good for anti-infantry, but far less good for tank-busting

[Zorg]

Wait... really? Stupid 5th Edition.

Do troops in open-topped transports at least take a full strength shot, or something?

Hmm... I think this makes Fire Prisms somewhat less awesome. Still very good for anti-infantry, but far less good for tank-busting

Half strength in 4th Ed too.

Opened topped means all passengers have a 360 fire arc and all can shoot, but the vehicle adds 1 on the damage chart.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Half strength in 4th Ed too.

Opened topped means all passengers have a 360 fire arc and all can shoot, but the vehicle adds 1 on the damage chart.

Well, that's what I get for never trusting single-shot weapons to Guardians, I guess

But S3 seems a bit much - I mean, that won't penetrate anything; heck, it won't even glance. Why not just say vehicles aren't affected by Blast Weapons unless they center on the vehicle?

[Zorg]

The logic seems to be the blast being too unfocussed to penetrate vehicle hulls. There are a few S8+ weapons out there that can still glance (the particle whip, apoc weapons), so all hope is not lost. Most but not all

[Erloas]

Well that was interesting... I put some brush cleaner in a plastic container I had left over from some basing material, and when I went to get it out today it was stuck to the table. After pulling it up I found that the plastic had kind of melted to the table. And the lid melded to the bottom so I couldn't open it. So guess it doesn't like that type of plastic.

I was hoping to get to play this weekend, but after rechecking the schedule it doesn't look like we have any of the libraries this weekend either. Which is too bad because I was really wanting to play.

[onasuma]

There's a nicely illustrated guide for doing pretty much what onasuma describes here. I plan to use it to enhance my own Plague Marines a bit.

Also, look at the chainmail bit there. Its useful for pretty much ever CM.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Blast weapons only hit with full strength against vehicles if the centre of the blast is over the vehicle, otherwise it's a S3 hit. Of course one good hit and they're probably screwed... but not as screwed as against the warwalkers.

That's why I'm delighted that titans have strength:d blast weapons. Hitting and killing multiple land raiders with a single strike is too fun ...

[Myatar_Panwar]

Even though I've only gotten back into my Tau just a couple weeks ago, I can already hear The Warp calling... its shouting lots of SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE, and other silly-ness like that.

So yeah, Chaos. I wantz them. Mostly because the Tau are a very shooty army, and I kind of want to make a CC focused army, or at least be capable at it. Thus Khorne. I was really considering just about all of the Chaos gods aside from Khorne originally, but nothing beats some good 'ol bloodlusting loonies revving their chain swords. This model probably turned me over the edge. The little short story they give for Kharne in the codex is just great.

But I was just basically wondering if you guys had any basic tips to starting an army of these fellas, and how to play them. I was thinking of buying the SM my friend has left over from AoBR (he is playing Orkz), and just converting them (or buying them from somewhere else if he doesn't want to part with them), starting from there.

Any advice for converting them? Needed bitz? And where to go for there? Looking into the codex now...

[Illiterate Scribe]

Well, it's generally quite hard to convert the AoBR marines, since they're a lump of plastic with the only added parts being their bolter and powerpack. On the other hand, they have pretty cool pre-heresy armour schemes, which would justify less conversion, while making them look a lot better (the white and blue contrast pretty nicely).



Also, one way of converting berserkers, quite possibly more cheaply, would be to use the WHFB chaos warriors, and just give them bolt-pistols instead of shields. It's a slightly different aesthetic, and they no longer look like they're frothing at the mouth as they charge out of control towards the enemy, but they're pretty scary nonetheless.

In terms of playing them, there's only one piece of advice I can actually give - remember your long range anti-tank. Seriously, without much, battlecannons and any (typically vehicle mounted) S6+ AP3- blast weapon will severely wreck your close combat horde.

Finally, if you're a fan of Kharn, you might like this (mildly nsfw language, but hey).

[king.com]

Actually, with a hair dryer its not to hard to radically reshape models (though do be careful).

The heat bascially melts the models jsut enough so you can move figures around, take off parts, etc.

Just dont leave it for too long or you get an effect similiar to army men + magnifying glass, except that army men cost like $1 and warhammer costs: your soul...

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yeah, but the AoBRines are essentially solid lumps of plastic. There's not much you can do with them, even with a hairdryer.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Ah, yeah I had a feeling that converting them would be a challenge. But I was mostly worried about converting those terminators and the Dreadnought, them being pretty damn expensive units, and as the set comes with both of them.

I will probably just try to save on the berzerkers by buying them from cheap sellers. I don't think I'd want to try and convert them.

Which brings me to another question: Should I carry only Berzerkers? Even though I want to be melee focused, I figure some normal marines with more weapon options would useful to have around as well.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Which brings me to another question: Should I carry only Berzerkers? Even though I want to be melee focused, I figure some normal marines with more weapon options would useful to have around as well.

Well, you will need some way of reliably dealing with tanks, who love nothing better than to simply move and shoot away from you. As I said, you'll need to find some way of preventing your people being massacred by prism cannons, battle cannons, las-toting undercosted predators, hammerheads, etc. Would you be willing to run some raptors with meltaguns? They might be effective at tank-hunting/tying up shooting units, and, given the fact that pre-heresy world-eaters were among the first to use jump packs, it would be fluffy as well.

Alternatively, you could take your own anti-vehicle tanks.

[onasuma]

The terminators and dreadnaught are the easiest things in there to convert. The termies need to have filed sholder pads and to have a few bits on imperial ingisnia removed, the dread just needs a new front plate. Both cheap and easy to do.

[Sanzh]

Since this seems like the place to ask, could someone help me develop a IG army list? We're probably going to play at 500 points, and I'll likely be up against SM and Orks. And I'm not sure how to have an army that can deal with the hordes of Boyz and still crack power armour.
I figure giving most of my squads Heavy Bolters should help, but other than that I don't know. I'm considering getting Centaurs for my command squads to act as cover, along with a little extra fire power and helping getting forces moving. And because they look cool.
My current list is something like this (I'm guesstimating, as the list isn't on me):

Spoiler

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Senior Officer (Autocannon, Centaur)
Infantry Platoon (Junior Officer w/ Centaur, Two Squads w/ Heavy Bolter)
Armoured Fist (Chimera w/ Multilaser and Heavy Bolter, Squad w/ Heavy Bolter)

Some help refining would be nice.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, you will need some way of reliably dealing with tanks, who love nothing better than to simply move and shoot away from you. As I said, you'll need to find some way of preventing your people being massacred by prism cannons, battle cannons, las-toting undercosted predators, hammerheads, etc. Would you be willing to run some raptors with meltaguns? They might be effective at tank-hunting/tying up shooting units, and, given the fact that pre-heresy world-eaters were among the first to use jump packs, it would be fluffy as well.

Alternatively, you could take your own anti-vehicle tanks.

Ah, I meant only Berzerkers for troop units. I was thinking of probably toting a Land Raider for antitank/transport goodness. Maybe not though.

And I was definitely strongly considering Raptors. Their kind of vicious nature fits Khorne well. Giving them Melta Guns for a little extra anti-tank sounds like a good idea.

Heres what I was thinking for a 1000 point list:

Spoiler

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HQ: Kharne The Betrayer - 165
Elite: 5 Terminators with Symbol of Khorne - 180
Troops: 8 Khorne Berzerkers - 168
8 Khorne Berzerkers - 168
Fast Attack: 5 Chaos Raptors, 2 of them have Melta Guns, Symbol of Khorne - 150
Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider -220

1051

Yeah, obviously over a bit. The easy fix would be to either switch out Kharne for a normal Chaos Lord (which could afford around 25 points of wargear) or to remove the two symbols of Khorne given to the Terminators and the Raptors. I was also considering not taking the Land Raider and putting in a Vindicator, giving up transport and a bit of tank killing ability. Although it would make for a good elite infantry killer. Also frees up 95 points, giving me about 40 points of Wargear to mess with.

Probably the biggest problem with my above build is that even with TheWarStore and buying the AoBR terminators, it would go to about $150. I'm trying to get the base army with 100 bucks or less. Getting the Vindicator instead of the Land Raider would drop the price to 135.... Hrm, I guess I'll see what eBay has to offer right now.

[Lorn]

Senior Officer (Autocannon, Centaur)
Infantry Platoon (Junior Officer w/ Centaur, Two Squads w/ Heavy Bolter)
Armoured Fist (Chimera w/ Multilaser and Heavy Bolter, Squad w/ Heavy Bolter)
[/spoiler]
Some help refining would be nice.

Right. Firstly - no idea whatsoever how good Centaurs are.

But your main advantage is numbers against the Marines, more men mean more shots mean more chance of cracking their armour.

So, let's take a look at this...

Commander - OK, aside from the autocannon. Why do you need it? Most Orks you'll come across at 500 points are T4 with a 5+ save, I think. Heavy bolters are your best bet. Not as useful against Marines - except with more shots you're more likely to get through their armour.

Infantry platoon, not so bad. Possibly lose the Centaur, though...

Armoured Fist squad, best bet.

For what it's worth what I would do is, basically, max out heavy bolters. They should go through Orks like a daneaxe through an egg - with Guard, you may have issues hitting but when you do, it will hurt. Badly.

Also max out normal Infantry; against Marines you want a LOT of shots. Same with Orks, really. Most armies won't be able to get much more than two troops and a HQ, and Marines won't, most likely, have large squads OR heavy weapons.

Just a thought - make two different armies? One built to destroy Marines, perhaps?

Say...

Junior Officer
Four Guardsmen, one plasma gun
50 total

Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer
Four Guardsmen, two plasma guns
60 total

Platoon One
Ten Guardsmen, one plasma gun
70 points

Platoon Two
Ten Guardsmen, one plasma gun
70 points

Armoured Fist Squad
Ten Guardsmen, meltagun - 70
Chimera - one heavy bolter, 80
150 points

Basilisk.
100 points.

This army will go through Marines like paper, in theory. For 500 points you are getting 40 Guardsmen, a Chimera and a Basilisk. I was toying with the idea of a lascannon to kill 2+ saves, but decided that a meltagun might be better - less range, but you can fire from the top hatch of a Chimera.

Deploying the Chimera and Basilisk on opposite sides of the board will give the enemy a real headache. Both will need killing, but at that size of game, this could be an issue. Guard the Basilisk better, make it a much less appetizing choice - to kill it the enemy may have to get into close range, and with maybe three rapidfiring plasma guns... and associated flashlights, not a nice prospect.

The Chimera and squad inside can run around nuking vehicles all game. Also good for independent characters with a 2+ save, you're unlikely to get Terminators but you could get a commander. Instakill!

If you wanted, lose the plasmaguns and gain heavy bolters for Orks, still much the same tactics.

[Bryn]

Since this seems like the place to ask, could someone help me develop a IG army list? We're probably going to play at 500 points, and I'll likely be up against SM and Orks. And I'm not sure how to have an army that can deal with the hordes of Boyz and still crack power armour.

Coming up with something that works well against both SM and Orks is quite an interesting problem.

Looking at what you have, though, I'd say it looks pretty good. In a small game like this, there's not going to be much in the way of anti-tank, so I would imagine that your opponent would have a hard time dealing with all the tanks - excellent news . The heavy bolters are effective against Orks, but they fare poorly against Marines (mostly thanks to the Marines' armour save).

The Centaurs are good. Consider equipping the command squads inside them with some short-range special weapons like flamers and meltaguns to take advantage of their mobility. Since a command squad can take up to four special weapons, they are pretty effective in a fast-moving Centaur. Of course, the points might make this a little tricky.

A possible concern is the number of infantry you have. There might not be enough to be effective, since Guard infantry rely on numbers in addition to tanks. On the other hand, it may be the case that you'd be better off taking the tanks. There is the possibility of dropping a Centaur, instead using one of your command squads to stick with the infantry and keep morale under control (assuming you're not getting voxcasters). That would let you get special weapons, such as plasma for dealing with the Marines.

Speaking of plasma, more of that may be a good idea. Although it won't be as effective against the Orks, having some plasma around would be useful for removing Nobz and a Warboss. Mainly, though, it would be to kill Marines - this is where you might have a problem with the number of squads you have limiting the number you can get.

In general, though, it looks like a fine list and it will be really good against the Orks, but the Marines may cause problems.

[tribble]

I have a question on chaos:

Is a daemon posessed vindicator with a havoc launcher worth taking?
see, if I have a havoc launcher Im laying down a twin-linked blast, and the demolisher cannon is a large blast. I figure that since neither of these use the vindicator's BS, I might as well take daemonic posession (ignores shaken and stunned results entirely) and make sure it can always shoot.

thoughts?

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, there arn't any downsides to taking DP if you are only using Ordinance Blasts, so I guess all that it comes down to is if you think its worth it/ have 20 extra points laying around.

[Sanzh]

Alright, thanks for the relatively fast answers.
The autocannon was for enemy vehicles, but I can see plasma being a cheaper alternative (albeit at the risk of frying my own men). It also seems like a good idea to drop the Senior Officer down to a Junior, along with scrapping one of the centaurs.
So, right now my ideas are either to use what Lorn came up with (which sounds good to me-- you can never go wrong with Basilisks), or hang onto the Centaur and use the remaining points to grab some heavy bolters. For now, I'll probably go with Lorn's idea-- I have too few points to make the Centaurs effective, and with only one Centaur I can't have Basilisks.
Thanks for the assistance.

[Altima]

I've always felt that Armored Fist squads were better than platoons, especially in the new edition if killpoints are used. It's certainly arguable the usefulness of Chimeras at higher pointed games, but I find them thoroughly useful with HB and multi-lasers at low point games. Until MCs smash into them, anyway. Against swarm armies, hb and flamers would probably be better.

IG really start to shine in higher points games.

The most prevailing tactic I've seen IG use against assault armies is using their command or JO squads as roadblocks. Since you can no longer consolodate into combat, this means that if they're charged by any close combat specialists, they'll die horribly, preferably leaving said CC goons in nice rapid fire range (and most assault specialists cannot stand up to massed fire, even from flashlights).

Preferably, what you want to do is nuke his troops, hop your squads in any transports, and try to keep from having your own troops killed. Claim objectives with your troops, and contest with your vehicles, and you'll get victory.

[MorhgorRB]

IG Tank Armies are also good for the occasional laugh.

Now, a friend of my has been using Deathwing for a good while, and while I watch his strong and few get picked off slowly, and reading an old White Dwarf for insperation, I have come to the conclusion that my next army is going to have to be Ravenwing, but I'm not entirely sure how the mix should go (Landspeeders/Bikes/Rhinos of Marines). Sammael is a given, for being amazing and flavourful.

Previous armies having had been Tyranid's and Sisters of Battle... I used them in almost the same way to varying degrees of success (Bug rush & Rhino rush), which means : will Ravenguard work with a speed tatic? I mean, yes the bikes make it obvious that they can floor it across the battlefield, but what's my best bet with them?

[Tren]

So to my fellow pointy ears, after some dismal runs with my Shining Spears I'm planning on converting them into jetbike warlocks (same cost, twice the combat effectiveness!) but I'm not sure how to go about it. I have some metal warlock models I could try cutting in half but honestly I think using the spear models would be much easier and look more suited to being on a jetbike. I've got some spare diresword and other power sword bits I can use for Witchblades and I'm considering trying my hand at green stuffing some short robes/vests for them to give them a slightly warlockier look. Maybe add some runes or spirit stones where I can.

So anybody done anything similar before? Any thoughts on how else I can psyker them up, and does anybody have any good green stuff tutorials to recommend?

Edit:

I have come to the conclusion that my next army is going to have to be Ravenwing, but I'm not entirely sure how the mix should go (Landspeeders/Bikes/Rhinos of Marines). Sammael is a given, for being amazing and flavourful.

Hate to say it but Bluebook does it better these days, they have a lot of the same features like bikes as troops with combat squads, plus the shiny bluebook wargear. I had the unfortunate experience of facing off against a fully kitted out Korsaro Khan and bike command squad (entire command squad on bikes for 90pts! It's feckin' ridiculous!) with storm shields and lightning claws. Not pretty. If you like the fluff then go for Ravenwing, but be aware they've been severely undercut as the premier bike army.