Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[Oracle_Hunter]

A quick question, what does doom do? The spell for Eldar.

What part of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM don't you understand?

Seriously though, it allows re-rolls for all wound rolls against the target unit. It makes Banshees effective against Space Marines, among other things.

EDIT: Ninja'd Stealth Suit'd!

[Ash08]

Well Zorg thank you for your indepth explanation and evaluation of my "plan". The land raider would be a redeemer... I would also have a chaplain and a unit of sniper scouts maybe even another tactical squad or a librarian... however the 1,500-2,000 point game never happened, we flaked out and just did a nice and easy 500 point game... I lost. We played capture and control pitched battle... in the end I had his base and had mine, we settled it by kill points. He won.

[evil_d4_swarm]

On another note, I posted this a while back:

Would it be viable to replace one of my hammerheads' railguns with a ion cannon (R 60", S 7, AP 4, Heavy 3) ? I could take out light vehicle squadrons that way, with the three shots.

If it is a good idea, what should I do with the extra 36 points I have left in my army?

List:

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Here is another repost of my question.

[Altima]

Here is another repost of my question.

Hammerhead Railguns are just too good to pass up. Between the huge submunitions shot and then the max strength single shell, it usually isn't. The ion cannon isn't bad, per say, it's just that the railgun is that good.

On the other hand, I don't see much use for your broadside suits. Their twin-linked railguns are only the single shot variety--they don't get submunitions.

From the look of your list, it looks like you're a turtler. That's a pretty dangerous strategy in the new edition. The last thing you want is a scout/infiltrate squad popping out right next to your firewarrior squads, assaulting, gutting them, then staying in cover. Likewise, you don't want a visit paid to you by the new marines who happily can drop down in pods and assault the same turn they come in.

I'd drop your broadsides for another Hammerhead, or some transports for your firewarriors (preferably with smart missiles). I'd drop Shadowsun, too. You might also want to drop the kroot--if you're turtling, all they'll do is act as a speed boost, and as decent as they seem compared to firewarriors, most things that can do close combat can take out kroot quickly, especially since there's no shaper.

Consider getting some more suits. Barring that, get some stealth suits. The burst cannons mow down weak, massed infantry (tyranids, orks).

Tau do their best in a mechanized list. That is, moving about the battlefield, and using their superior firepower and fire control to put some serious hurt on the enemy. The standard fish of fury does well to keep you out of melee.

The problem with 5th edition (and, of course, all the 4.5 and 5th edition armies--the ones that started with Dark Angels and Eldar--who are far and away a lot more powerful than you are) is that life is no longer good for the Tau.

You've lost the ability to effectively turtle. There's a lot more mission-based objectives now. Not only that, but the new infiltration/scout movies will allow enemies to almost instantly hit your lines with ease.

Next to that, you've lost a good portion of your firepower. A lot of armies that can turtle or shoot as well as you (what's that? Eldar pathfinders with 2+ cover saves? Yay) will simply wear you out. Add to that that skimmers no longer are harder to hit than any other vehicle and that all vehicles hit in melee are hit from behind, and you run the risk of being gutted.

Last, but not least, is the tactic of unit wrapping. It's not a pretty or, in fact, fair tactic. Basically, you take two (preferably large) units, like gaunts, and 'wrap' them around themselves, so that at least half of each squad is hidden behind the other squad. The effect? Gaunts getting 4+ cover saves. Now, keep in mind, that the maximum gaunt squad size is 32 models, which can be gotten for, at cheapest, 160 points. So imagine trying to wittle away at sixty-four wounds of models that will not break, who can fleet, and who can butcher firewarriors in combat.

[Erloas]

Well I only ended up with one game today. It was 2000pts vs IG, a different IG player this time.
The game ended up being anihilation and spearhead deployment.

I went with something a little different with this list, using an autarch on a jetbike rather then a second farseer. He didn't do too bad considering the blasted the sniper/assassin on the second turn before he got to kill much, but even with his plasma gun he failed to destroy many vehicles (not that he didn't have plenty of opportunities). He didn't really seem any more useful then a farseer though, so I'm not sure how much playtime he will see (I'll probably have him in 1 of the 3 lists I make up if I do that). I mostly fielded him because I had just finished putting the model together... but when I was looking though my models to put him on the board after writing the list he was no where to be found, I ended up leaving him at home on my desk.
At 2000pts it used almost every model I have, about the only choices I had was weapon choices for my vehicles. If I really pushed things I could probably hit 2250, but thats it.

My TL-brightlance on my wave serpent did very little, and my EML-warwalker survived a lot of shooting thanks to cover but failed to wound a lemen russ several times while shooting it in the back.

His artillery tank (basilisk?) managed to drop its large blast right on my unit of dire avengers right after they got out of their transport and wiped them all out in a single hit. It exploded the first time I got into range to shoot at it though.

My banshees managed to miss a difficult terrain test against his lascannons HW crew, when they needed a 3 using 3d6. Luckily the banshees didn't take a whole lot of return fire... and for whatever reason he charged them with one of his squads which was dead before it even got to attack.

The most annoying thing he had was a set of 2 deamonhosts, one just chased a wave serpent around, and just managed to be annoying by first turn getting T7 making the dire avengers single set of shots in the game less effective, and then the next turn regenerating all the wounds I did manage to get. The other one played with a small unit of jetbikes for a couple turns, he managed to kill them but it took a while.

The lemen russ's (there were 2) were kind of annoying, their template was pretty good, but what was really annoying about them is that all of my shots against them for the first 3-4 rounds managed to miss and fail to wound even with TL-bightlances and plasma guns and missile launchers. At least by later in the game I killed one (after one round of immobilizing it and blowing of 3 weapons) and I took off the primary gun of the other. It managed to ram my EML warwalker and blow it up. The last round I had about 11 str 6 shots at the rear and the brightlances on the side and didn't manage to do anything at all to it. Not that it really mattered at that point, it was his last model on the table.

End result I had 20 killpoints (out of 21 possible) and he had 8 killpoints out of 17 possible.

[Altima]

I went with something a little different with this list, using an autarch on a jetbike rather then a second farseer. He didn't do too bad considering the blasted the sniper/assassin on the second turn before he got to kill much, but even with his plasma gun he failed to destroy many vehicles (not that he didn't have plenty of opportunities). He didn't really seem any more useful then a farseer though, so I'm not sure how much playtime he will see (I'll probably have him in 1 of the 3 lists I make up if I do that). I mostly fielded him because I had just finished putting the model together... but when I was looking though my models to put him on the board after writing the list he was no where to be found, I ended up leaving him at home on my desk.
At 2000pts it used almost every model I have, about the only choices I had was weapon choices for my vehicles. If I really pushed things I could probably hit 2250, but thats it.

Giving him a lance, jetbike, and scorpion him, and he gets something like 6 S6 attacks on the charge. Against vehicles, he ALWAYS hits rear armor. Most rear armor is AV10 or 11.

Typically, Autarchs are used in the above mentioned formation, usually in a squad of Shining Spears, or they're the jump pack variety, usually with the grenades.

However, you are correct. Autarchs really do kinda suck for their points cost.

My TL-brightlance on my wave serpent did very little, and my EML-warwalker survived a lot of shooting thanks to cover but failed to wound a lemen russ several times while shooting it in the back.

That's just bad luck, but brightlances on a wave serpent is quite a bit expensive. You might have more luck getting a guardian squad with a weapon platform. You might even wanna try a Wraithlord with EML and brightlance. As an MC, it can fire both on the same turn, and if you stick it in cover, coupled with its high toughness, and it'll be quite impressive.

His artillery tank (basilisk?) managed to drop its large blast right on my unit of dire avengers right after they got out of their transport and wiped them all out in a single hit. It exploded the first time I got into range to shoot at it though.

Yeah, the basilisk is one of the best tanks in the game. However, it has a glass jaw. If you can infiltrate scorpions, you can easily smack it with the claw until it's dead, since the player will, more than likely, stick it in as far out of LoS as possible.

My banshees managed to miss a difficult terrain test against his lascannons HW crew, when they needed a 3 using 3d6. Luckily the banshees didn't take a whole lot of return fire... and for whatever reason he charged them with one of his squads which was dead before it even got to attack.

You even failed your fleet roll? Also, banshees are kind of a waste of IG. They just don't have anything that needs that many power attacks. Unless they bright allies.

The most annoying thing he had was a set of 2 deamonhosts, one just chased a wave serpent around, and just managed to be annoying by first turn getting T7 making the dire avengers single set of shots in the game less effective, and then the next turn regenerating all the wounds I did manage to get. The other one played with a small unit of jetbikes for a couple turns, he managed to kill them but it took a while.

Yeah, daemonhosts are annoying, but like every Daemonhunter, it's way, way expensive. He did have the required HQ Inquisitor, right?

The lemen russ's (there were 2) were kind of annoying, their template was pretty good, but what was really annoying about them is that all of my shots against them for the first 3-4 rounds managed to miss and fail to wound even with TL-bightlances and plasma guns and missile launchers. At least by later in the game I killed one (after one round of immobilizing it and blowing of 3 weapons) and I took off the primary gun of the other. It managed to ram my EML warwalker and blow it up. The last round I had about 11 str 6 shots at the rear and the brightlances on the side and didn't manage to do anything at all to it. Not that it really mattered at that point, it was his last model on the table.

Yeah, the best way to deal with the Russes are to hit side/rear armor, or assault it. Warp Spiders or Hawks with haywire grenades come to mind.

Also, I was under the impression that kill points were for individual models, not for squads. I assume that an IG would have more than 23 models on the table. Unless he was trying to be cute with an AC, in which case he got what he deserved.

But yeah, between scorpions and banshees, against IG, scorpions are better (outflanking to the rescure!). More high strength attacks are better than weak, power weapon attacks. Worst-case scenario, you face some GKs or SoB, but you'll kill about the same.

[Tren]

Also, I was under the impression that kill points were for individual models, not for squads. I assume that an IG would have more than 23 models on the table. Unless he was trying to be cute with an AC, in which case he got what he deserved.

No, definitely not. Kill points are earned by eliminating units, not individual models, otherwise short of boarding your opponent there'd be no way for the average nid, ork, or IG player to possibly win a game.

[Altima]

No, definitely not. Kill points are earned by eliminating units, not individual models, otherwise short of boarding your opponent there'd be no way for the average nid, ork, or IG player to possibly win a game.

My bad, I was confused. It's by squads (which still screws IG fairly well) and other independant thingies.

And it'd only be impossible to win on games that used kill points.

Oh kill points, how I loathe thee. I miss VPs.

[Bryn]

Like victory points? Bring them back. Outside of official tournaments and probably games in stores, absolutely nothing stops you and your opponent from playing based on VPs instead of KPs.

Anyway, I think my Vulture is about the unluckiest plane ever to fly.

Baneblade. Side armour 13. The Vulture had a twin-linked lascannon and six S8 missiles. All of that fired at the Baneblade in a desperate bid to destroy it as soon as possible.

Absolutely no effect. Not even a temporary one. The Vulture emptied its entire stock of missiles and didn't even scratch the paint

That Baneblade and all the nearby Leman Russes proved equally ineffective at bringing down the Vulture, which survived several more turns of lascannon fire before eventually being brought down by a lucky Chaos Marine. By that point, the game was already lost.

[Baxter190]

Okay, how do I make the table so I can show you guys my army list? I'd like your guy's advice on it.

[Eldan]

I just used excel, made a screenshot and uploaded it.

[Erloas]

Giving him a lance, jetbike, and scorpion him, and he gets something like 6 S6 attacks on the charge. Against vehicles, he ALWAYS hits rear armor. Most rear armor is AV10 or 11.

Typically, Autarchs are used in the above mentioned formation, usually in a squad of Shining Spears, or they're the jump pack variety, usually with the grenades.

However, you are correct. Autarchs really do kinda suck for their points cost.

The main reason I went with a plasma gun is because all I had to run him with was normal jetbikes. He did work some on his own unsupported, but most of the time he was running with them for security.

That's just bad luck, but brightlances on a wave serpent is quite a bit expensive. You might have more luck getting a guardian squad with a weapon platform. You might even wanna try a Wraithlord with EML and brightlance. As an MC, it can fire both on the same turn, and if you stick it in cover, coupled with its high toughness, and it'll be quite impressive.

Yeah, it was the same bad luck I had with the plasma gun on the autarch as well. (of course my bad luck only went so far as the killing of tanks, everything else fell easily) As for the point cost, considering that the Wraithlord is the only way to get any heavy weapons at BS4, and that the wave serpent is BS3 but twin linked for only 5 more points (for the weapon) then the wraithlord, the wave serpent should really be more point effective use of the weapon. The other reason is that the wave serpent had another use, carrying my (sadly shortlived) dire avengers, which just need to get into place and not get into the middle of things so I could effectively use the brightlance every turn and still be an effective transport. So I was fielding the wave serpent reguardless, it was just a choice in weapon.
Besides, I don't own a wraithlord (and based on how I want to run my eldar I probably won't for quite a while)

I had 2 units of guardians, but I decided to use them more agressively this game by giving them shuriken cannons and sending them in. They did pretty good like that. I found in my other games with guardians at BS3 and the weapons costing the same as on all other places I can get them, they just weren't effective enough. Needing 80 points worth of guardians before I add in the weapon, then keeping the weapon out of range so that 80 points doesn't do anything else for a single BS3 shot just never seemed to be cost effective in my previous games. Considering that I can take the same weapon for the same cost (for the weapon) at the same BS3, it seems much more practical to put them on a 45point vyper with greater manuverability or a 30 point war walker which can take 2. Given that they are vehicles and can loose their shots much more easily it does come with risk. Which is why I went with the wave serpent, since it was being fielded reguardless and it was Twin Linked, has good survivability, has a lot more versatility, and really isn't that much more then a guardian squad. (135 for the serpent vs 110 for the guardians, base with brightlance)

Yeah, the basilisk is one of the best tanks in the game. However, it has a glass jaw. If you can infiltrate scorpions, you can easily smack it with the claw until it's dead, since the player will, more than likely, stick it in as far out of LoS as possible.

Yeah, I had an outflanking scatter laser war walker with the target of killing the basilisk, it just happened that I forgot to try to bring him in until the 4th turn (at which point I stuck him in the middle of the table to make sure I wouldn't forget). Almost fittingly, by that time I had my other scatter lasered wave serpent in range and it killed it so my walker went after some heavy weapon platforms.

You even failed your fleet roll? Also, banshees are kind of a waste of IG. They just don't have anything that needs that many power attacks. Unless they bright allies.

No, the fleet roll got me to the point where all I needed was a single 3 on 3d6 to get the assault. I brought the Banshees because I'm going to be fielding my army as an all-comers list all the time and not going to tailor it to each opponent. Considering that Banshees and Scorpions are the same price, and in this case both will wipe out guard without any issue, I don't see it as being much of an issue. They both fill the same roll for the same cost and are more then effective enough for the task at hand makes it a moot point as far as I'm concerned.
Not to mention that I really didn't have any alternative to field in my list, the only models I had left were a few warlocks I could have attached, and I don't think they would have been as effective.

Yeah, daemonhosts are annoying, but like every Daemonhunter, it's way, way expensive. He did have the required HQ Inquisitor, right?

Yeah, the inquisitor didn't do much though, he lasted just long enough to get the hosts summoned and then was wiped out by my scorpions.

Yeah, the best way to deal with the Russes are to hit side/rear armor, or assault it. Warp Spiders or Hawks with haywire grenades come to mind.

Well obviously I was going after the rear and sides whenever possible, it just took a while for me to get into place because my opponent knew that as well. Also all of my close combat troops were busy on another corner of the board laying waste to 5-6 units of guards and heavy weapons that were entrenched in a building.
Being a spear-head deployment also ment I had a lot more ground to cover to get into place and he had the lemen russes on the side without a flank.

[Winterwind]

Okay, how do I make the table so I can show you guys my army list? I'd like your guy's advice on it.

Possibility 1: Just quote somebody else who had the table in his post, remove the quote tags and everything else not belonging to the table, and replace the contents with your own.

Possibility 2: The command for making a table is {table][/table], each line corresponds to a row in the table, you seperate columns with | .

EDIT:
Possibility 3: Here, just use this :
{table][B]Type[/B]|[B]Composition[/B]|[B]Equipment[/B]|[B]Point Cost[/B]
[B]HQ[/B]|||
[B]Fast Attack[/B]|||
[B]Troops[/B]|||
||[RIGHT][B]Total:[/B][/RIGHT]|[/table]

[Dr. Bath]

Anyone who plays a vassal match has to do a battle report, with screencaps and everything! It's the rules!

p.s. It's not really the rules. But it'd be pretty cool.

[Eldan]

I'm pretty sure Lorn is writing a report on our game yesterday, he was making screenshots.
Short version: death to those who dare oppose the eldar.
We had some extremely lucky and some extremely poor rolls on both sides.

[Zorg]

Hammerhead Railguns are just too good to pass up. Between the huge submunitions shot and then the max strength single shell, it usually isn't. The ion cannon isn't bad, per say, it's just that the railgun is that good.

On the other hand, I don't see much use for your broadside suits. Their twin-linked railguns are only the single shot variety--they don't get submunitions.

From the look of your list, it looks like you're a turtler. That's a pretty dangerous strategy in the new edition. The last thing you want is a scout/infiltrate squad popping out right next to your firewarrior squads, assaulting, gutting them, then staying in cover. Likewise, you don't want a visit paid to you by the new marines who happily can drop down in pods and assault the same turn they come in.

The Ion cannon is AP3 in fact, so is in some ways better than the Railgun against Marines. My Tau playing friend put it to me that a railhead costs so muc, gets one shot that isn't twin linked, and an be fairly easily blown up (and the submunition is fairly weeny against marines). Broadsides are twinlinked, can get plasma rifles and whatnot to defend themselves up close, and in some ways have better armour than a Hammerhead. So it depends who you're facing really - orks and nids, go railhead, Necrons, Marines and Chaos, go broadsides.

And the only marines who can assault on the turn they arrive are Vanguard veterens using Heroic Intervention. Drop pods cannot be assaulted out of, as even though they are open topped they are still a deep striking unit, so the disembarking troops cannot move or assault, only run or shoot.

[Tren]

The Ion cannon is AP3 in fact, so is in some ways better than the Railgun against Marines. My Tau playing friend put it to me that a railhead costs so muc, gets one shot that isn't twin linked, and an be fairly easily blown up (and the submunition is fairly weeny against marines).

I wouldn't discount the submunition so fast though. AP3 on the ion canon is nice, but it's only 3 shots. And given the distance you'll probably be shooting from it's pretty likely any marines will have a cover save. These days with cover saves abound it's as often more effective to just spam armor saves as it is to go for high AP weaponry to turn a 3+ armor save into a 4+ cover. Wounding on 2+ still even against a 3+ armor is gonna make for a number of dead marines, and then you've got the tank-killing shot to boot.

And the only marines who can assault on the turn they arrive are Vanguard veterens using Heroic Intervention. Drop pods cannot be assaulted out of, as even though they are open topped they are still a deep striking unit, so the disembarking troops cannot move or assault, only run or shoot.

And even the vanguard can't assault out of a drop pod, they must be wearing jetpacks which means they have the chance to mishap or scatter further than someone in a drop pod might, and be out of assault range.

[hamishspence]

in White Dwarf, Cypher, despite losing his Phase Knife, got special rule allowing him to use plasma pistol in CC as if it was a power sword. And retained his ability to fire two guns instead of one.

So Cypher (and only cypher) can get some real oomph out of a CC pistol.

[Lorn]

I'm pretty sure Lorn is writing a report on our game yesterday, he was making screenshots.
Short version: death to those who dare oppose the eldar.
We had some extremely lucky and some extremely poor rolls on both sides.

Yes, and here's the report. Spoilered due to size.

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500 points Capture and Control mission with Pitched Battle setup. Objectives shown with the Chaos Missile Silo terrain pieces.

Armies:

Lorn
Imperial Guard


Eldan
Eldar


Deployment:

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Report:

Turn One
The Imperial Guard got first turn, but couldn’t shoot much. The Chimera cruised forwards 6” and killed one Pathfinder with its heavy bolters.
The Eldar turn was very similar; everything moved forwards, and the green Jetbikes claimed the lives of one brave Guardsmen in the Platoon Command Squad, then dodged back into cover. Meanwhile, the brown Jetbikes managed to get a Crew Stunned result on the Chimera.

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Turn Two
With the Eldar out of sight, the Guard didn’t really manage to kill anything this turn. However, the Platoon Command squad, incensed at the loss of one of their men, opened fire anyway at the Green jetbikes, and managed to kill one.
The Eldar, meanwhile, did much the same as last turn; move forwards at full speed. The Harlequins managed to make it into some semblance of cover behind a large building, and the green Jetbikes managed to buzz past the Platoon Commander; in the process, killing one man. The real success came from the brown Jetbikes, who immobilised the Chimera…

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Turn Three
The Guard opened fire at the Eldar wherever possible. The black and brown squads destroyed one more green Jetbike with their heavy bolters, while the squads near the Senior Officer managed to kill one Harlequin at a range.
The Eldar, meanwhile, moved into assault. The Harlequins ran in and proceeded to turn five Guardsmen into a fine mushy paste, losing one man in return. The Guard managed to hold the line, somehow. Meanwhile, the brown Jetbikes moved into assault with the blue Guard Infantry squad, killing two members – but again, the valiant men of the Imperium held fast against the skintight-armour wearing space elves.

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Turn Four
The Armoured Fist squad inside the Chimera disembarked, ready to run for the objective – the original plan having been made a mockery of. However, they lost one member to the Rangers shooting, while the black and brown squads moved back to cover the objective – losing two men to the remaining Eldar jetbike which had jumped over a building, parking itself squarely on the objective. The Harlequins and Autarch, meanwhile, proceeded to turn the rest of the Guard around that general area – aside from the blue squad – into more piles of fine goo. The Jetbikes assaulting the blue squad failed to kill any more Guardsmen, but lost one Jetbike in the process.

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Turn Five
Due to some confusion, we realised there was another turn, which is this turn. However, we forgot about the next… but anyway.
The Rangers proceeded to destroy more Armoured Fist squad, while losing none of their number in return. Meanwhile, the Harlequins moved into assault with the black Infantry squad, killing six of them – one model less, and a draw would have been forced. The Jetbikes proceeded to lose another model and the Autarch joined the Jetbikes, killing three Guardsmen in a manner deemed too horrific to explain in too much detail.

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When the dust had settled, there was a clear win for the Eldar – though it had been close, if the Harlequins had not killed one of those Guardsmen it would have been a draw.

Highlights and lowlights of the battle include but are not limited to me rolling to hit, getting four sixes with my four remaining lasguns, and totally failing to even wound anything.

In retrospect, I should probably have deployed right at the back with everything but the Chimera. I'd have got a totally unobscured turn of shooting at the Harlequins, and maybe they wouldn't have totally ripped my main line apart...

[Zenos]

Nice pictures. Too bad the good Guard lost. Also, LOL at the hits which failed to wound.

[Psychotic]

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As for the point cost, considering that the Wraithlord is the only way to get any heavy weapons at BS4, and that the wave serpent is BS3 but twin linked for only 5 more points (for the weapon) then the wraithlord, the wave serpent should really be more point effective use of the weapon. The other reason is that the wave serpent had another use, carrying my (sadly shortlived) dire avengers, which just need to get into place and not get into the middle of things so I could effectively use the brightlance every turn and still be an effective transport. So I was fielding the wave serpent reguardless, it was just a choice in weapon.

I had 2 units of guardians, but I decided to use them more agressively this game by giving them shuriken cannons and sending them in. They did pretty good like that. I found in my other games with guardians at BS3 and the weapons costing the same as on all other places I can get them, they just weren't effective enough. Needing 80 points worth of guardians before I add in the weapon, then keeping the weapon out of range so that 80 points doesn't do anything else for a single BS3 shot just never seemed to be cost effective in my previous games. Considering that I can take the same weapon for the same cost (for the weapon) at the same BS3, it seems much more practical to put them on a 45point vyper with greater manuverability or a 30 point war walker which can take 2. Given that they are vehicles and can loose their shots much more easily it does come with risk. Which is why I went with the wave serpent, since it was being fielded reguardless and it was Twin Linked, has good survivability, has a lot more versatility, and really isn't that much more then a guardian squad. (135 for the serpent vs 110 for the guardians, base with brightlance)

I find that the Wraithlord tends to be superior to the Wave Serpent due three reasons.
1) A wraithlord with an Eldar Missile Launcher and Brightlance can lay down a reasonable amount of anti-armor fire. The higher BS means that you're going to hit with at least one weapon, but the odds are decent that you'll hit with both.
2) Wave Serpents probably want to drop off their cargo of killer dudes as their first priority, moving flat-out in order to get a cover save. Doing this means that you can't shoot, however, so the Bright Lances become a point sink for those first 2 turns.
3) I find that monstrous creatures survive longer than medium armor vehicles like Wave Serpents. Three wounds and T8 means that you can take a reasonable amount of punishment. Set the Wraithlord in a fashion so he can claim a cover save and then you'll damn hard to kill.

Guardians can move and shoot their heavy weapons due to the fact that the gun is on a hover platform. The gun becomes an assault weapon for all intents and purposes.

[Baxter190]

Thanks. Anyways, I'm making a Blood Angel army, about 1500 points and would like your guy's advice. I'm using thishttp://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...th_Edition.pdf fo my codex for points and stats, so if the points seem off, check here.

{table]Type|Unit Name|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Dante|Dante|Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Perdition Pistol, The Axe Motalis,Death Mask of Sanguinius, Jump Pack, Artificer Armour, Iron Halo|200
HQ|Chaplain|Chaplain|Frag, Krak Grenades,Rosarius,Crozius Arcanum,Power Armor|120
HQ|Honour Guard|Space Marine Veteran x5|Frag, Krak Grenade, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Power Armor, Jump Pack, x2 Plasma Pistol|180
Elite|Death Company|Death Company x5|Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Powerarmor, Jump Pack|25
Elite|Scout Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1 Scouts x4|Scout Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag, Krak Grenades, x2 Shotgun, x1Chainsword, x1 Bolter, x1 Heavy Bolter|95
Heavy|Devastator Squad|Veteran Seargeant x1, Space Marine x9|Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolters x5, Heavy Bolters x2, Las Cannon x2, Chainsword|290
Troops|Tactical Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1, Space Marine x9|Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolt pistol, Bolter x8, Chainsword x1, Flamer x1, Missle Launcher x1|195
Troops|Tactical Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1, Space Marine x9|Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolt pistol, Bolter x8, Chainsword x1, Meltagun x1, Missle Launcherx1|200
Troops|Assault Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1, Space Marine x9|Power Armour, Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Frag, Krak Grenades, Chainswords, Plasma Pistol x1, Power Sword|170
Transport|Rhino|Rhino|Storm Bolter, Smoke Launchers, Searchlight|40
|||

Total:

|1515 [/table]

Alright, so I'm planing on having the tactical squad with a melta attached to the Rhino. Dante's Honor squad will mainly be used against HQ squads, the death squad and chaplain against enemy troops choices, and the assault and rhino squad for objectives or other requirments. Te devastator and other tactical squad will be for holding objectives and laying down a field of fire. The scout squad will be fore hitting behind enemy lines. This work?

[Zorg]

I wouldn't discount the submunition so fast though. AP3 on the ion canon is nice, but it's only 3 shots. And given the distance you'll probably be shooting from it's pretty likely any marines will have a cover save. These days with cover saves abound it's as often more effective to just spam armor saves as it is to go for high AP weaponry to turn a 3+ armor save into a 4+ cover. Wounding on 2+ still even against a 3+ armor is gonna make for a number of dead marines, and then you've got the tank-killing shot to boot.

True on the cover saves, but in my experience I've only ever lost one rhino (or vehicle of any kind for that matter) to a hammerhead. And only after it rammed me after missing four shots in a row But the number of vehicles that have succumbed to twin linkedness is much, much higher.

And even the vanguard can't assault out of a drop pod, they must be wearing jetpacks which means they have the chance to mishap or scatter further than someone in a drop pod might, and be out of assault range.

But if the first wave of drop pods have locator beacons fitted the Vanguard won't scatter if they aim within 6" as it affects all deep striking marines, even LotD technically (I use them as teleport assault troops) .



Baxter, the weak spot I see is you have five guys in the Dev squad doing nothing (except sucking down wounds), and a whole tactical squad (with the shortest ranged weapon out there) walking.

Walking is very bad, as even if the objective is only 12" away, that's two whole turns of 12" range on bolters and no heavy weapons. It is highly unlikely the enemy will be polite enough to walk into your guns. Well, maybe 'nids and orks will

I'd drop the extra five devs (they're not troops so can't even hold an objective at base), buy another rhino and give them both extra-armour. Ex-Arm is pretty much essential for transports as ignoring a stunned result can mean the difference between leaping out and rapid firing someone, or sitting like a melon in the middle of the battlefeild for an extra turn.

That should leave you with five points to spare - I would personally drop the scouts and get two attack bikes. More dakka for your dolla, and they can even get multi-meltas for the same points. Can't start behind the enemy, but can keep pace with the jump marines and still lay down some fire. However if you were set on the scouts I'd still drop the heavy bolter and give the sergeant a power sword. Gives them more oomph in HtH, and everyone can still move and fire.

[Baxter190]

Well, the extra tac squads supposed to help hold objective, while the devastator squad will be split into combat squads, with the the heavy bolters guarding the objective with some wound absorber, while the cannons are for anti tanks with some guards. I'll probably put the cannon squad behind some ruins. I might switch the scouts out as you said though, but I like being able to lay do wnsome fire on the first turn.

[Altima]

The Ion cannon is AP3 in fact, so is in some ways better than the Railgun against Marines. My Tau playing friend put it to me that a railhead costs so muc, gets one shot that isn't twin linked, and an be fairly easily blown up (and the submunition is fairly weeny against marines). Broadsides are twinlinked, can get plasma rifles and whatnot to defend themselves up close, and in some ways have better armour than a Hammerhead. So it depends who you're facing really - orks and nids, go railhead, Necrons, Marines and Chaos, go broadsides.

Well, of course, if your primary enemy is marines (or MEQs), you can tailor your list for it. The submunition is good for hordes (especially since it always hits now). As for marines, and other MEQs, generally, you really don't have to worry about those. The superiority of the firewarrior's weapons, especially with longer ranged, will allow you to trade blows quite effectively with marines. After all, their normal armor save is better than any cover save, anyway. Make them take enough saves, and they'll die.

In the latest edition, the game is won on the backs of your infantry. If all you're using firewarriors for is because they're required, well...*shrugs*

One of the problems I have with broadsides is that they die to instant death rather easily. Every marine tac squad you'll see nowadays will have a S8 weapon. Then there are lascannons, earthshaker shots, etc, etc. It's rare, but the first time you see your broadside squad squished by a single barbed strangler shot, and you'll be irritated.

However, if they work better for you, they work better for you. Use 'em. No sense compromising your tactical mix because something is 'better'.

The main reason I went with a plasma gun is because all I had to run him with was normal jetbikes. He did work some on his own unsupported, but most of the time he was running with them for security.

If that's the case, you may want to consider a Farseer on a jetbike instead. Security is all well and good, but nuking a leman russ is really fun, but if you're not going to use your Autarch, might as well go for something else. Heck, the Eldritch Storm can spin the Russ around and expose its vulnerable sides or, Khaine willing, its rear armor.

Yeah, it was the same bad luck I had with the plasma gun on the autarch as well. (of course my bad luck only went so far as the killing of tanks, everything else fell easily) As for the point cost, considering that the Wraithlord is the only way to get any heavy weapons at BS4, and that the wave serpent is BS3 but twin linked for only 5 more points (for the weapon) then the wraithlord, the wave serpent should really be more point effective use of the weapon. The other reason is that the wave serpent had another use, carrying my (sadly shortlived) dire avengers, which just need to get into place and not get into the middle of things so I could effectively use the brightlance every turn and still be an effective transport. So I was fielding the wave serpent reguardless, it was just a choice in weapon.
Besides, I don't own a wraithlord (and based on how I want to run my eldar I probably won't for quite a while)

Well, I find wave serpents better suited with shurikan weaponry ('paults and/or cannons). Against guard, it might be better to make your dire avengers more combaty. Of course, most guard can't survive a bladestorm without breaking anyway, so.

If you don't want the wraithlord, well, mayhaps a dark reaper squadron? The exarch with an EML and the correct powers can pop out two or three plates on vehicles a turn.

Or, if you really wanted, grab a falcon, shove five fire dragons in there, and shoved them down the most expensive vehicle on the table (not the monolith, though).

I had 2 units of guardians, but I decided to use them more agressively this game by giving them shuriken cannons and sending them in. They did pretty good like that. I found in my other games with guardians at BS3 and the weapons costing the same as on all other places I can get them, they just weren't effective enough. Needing 80 points worth of guardians before I add in the weapon, then keeping the weapon out of range so that 80 points doesn't do anything else for a single BS3 shot just never seemed to be cost effective in my previous games. Considering that I can take the same weapon for the same cost (for the weapon) at the same BS3, it seems much more practical to put them on a 45point vyper with greater manuverability or a 30 point war walker which can take 2. Given that they are vehicles and can loose their shots much more easily it does come with risk. Which is why I went with the wave serpent, since it was being fielded reguardless and it was Twin Linked, has good survivability, has a lot more versatility, and really isn't that much more then a guardian squad. (135 for the serpent vs 110 for the guardians, base with brightlance)

Generally, guardian squads do best with scatter lasers and EML. They aren't meanted to be that offensive (they can hold their own against, say, guardsmen and firewarriors in CC), but they are just militia. What they do excel at is sitting in the back and living long enough to grab objectives. The warlock is also good for your Wraithlord, if you take it.

Yeah, I had an outflanking scatter laser war walker with the target of killing the basilisk, it just happened that I forgot to try to bring him in until the 4th turn (at which point I stuck him in the middle of the table to make sure I wouldn't forget). Almost fittingly, by that time I had my other scatter lasered wave serpent in range and it killed it so my walker went after some heavy weapon platforms.

Yeah, this happens to all of us. Yeah, about my third game as Chaos Daemons was rather...humiliating because of a similar situation.

Well obviously I was going after the rear and sides whenever possible, it just took a while for me to get into place because my opponent knew that as well. Also all of my close combat troops were busy on another corner of the board laying waste to 5-6 units of guards and heavy weapons that were entrenched in a building.
Being a spear-head deployment also ment I had a lot more ground to cover to get into place and he had the lemen russes on the side without a flank.

Bleh, I friggin' hate split deployment guard. And that tactic in generally. Luckily, with Tyranids, you get to teach the players the error of their ways with scuttling genestealers.

Also, kudos to you for not descending into the Falcon+Harlies mentality that so many Eldar players are.

Snip.

Why aren't you using Lemartes for your Chaplain? For five points more, you get an extra wound and an extra leadership for your DC.

[First Speaker]

So, in a 1500 point list, how many flamers of Tzeentch would be too many? I'm looking at basing a Daemon army mostly around them, and, while they are incredibly fragile, derp strike + 12" move + wound on 4+, no save flamer template looks horrific, especially in numbers. So, would taking c. 20 be overkill?

[Rayzin]

In my short time of playing daemons i found that flamers are pretty much useless unless they're in the correct spot. If you take 20 of them make sure you have enough plaguebearers with banners to DS them in successfully. Deep striking in 3 inches in front of the Marines with 5 overlapping breaths of chaos is a lot of damage, while if they are just 1 or 2 inches to far they get cut up in the round right after.

[Tren]

The submunition is good for hordes (especially since it always hits now).

Definitely agree that it's great for hordes, but I'm curious what you mean by "always hits now"? It still scatters like everything else does unless you roll a bulls eye.

If that's the case, you may want to consider a Farseer on a jetbike instead. Security is all well and good, but nuking a leman russ is really fun, but if you're not going to use your Autarch, might as well go for something else. Heck, the Eldritch Storm can spin the Russ around and expose its vulnerable sides or, Khaine willing, its rear armor.

Eldritch storm is a spiffy power, but I don't find it's reliable enough at tank busting at 3 + 2d6. Could it pen a landraider? Yes, but it could also fail to do anything to a rhino. I'd save the points and if you want ranged AT on the farseer just go with the singing spear. Personally though I'd rather opt for just a regular witchblade and get into assault against a tank. 3 S9 attacks against back armor? Yes please! My witchblade toting farseer has even garnered quite the reputation as a dreadnought killer.

The exarch with an EML and the correct powers can pop out two or three plates on vehicles a turn.

At best with fast shot you can shoot 2 missiles with an EML, but you'd want krak as the plasma missles that use the blast marker are only S4. Either way, using the reaper exarch for anti-armor makes for a severe waste of points. At S5 the rest of the squad is going to be lackluster at best against any kind of armor, and their expensive AP3 is going to waste. The reapers are a decidedly anti-infantry squad, and if you equip the exarch with the tempest launcher and crack shot he'll be taking out entire squads of space marines in cover without a save on his own.

Generally, guardian squads do best with scatter lasers and EML. They aren't meanted to be that offensive (they can hold their own against, say, guardsmen and firewarriors in CC), but they are just militia. What they do excel at is sitting in the back and living long enough to grab objectives. The warlock is also good for your Wraithlord, if you take it.

Definitely agree there, guardians are just meant to be inexpensive bodies to put on an objective, and an EML or scatter laser is the best way to give them some punch while remaining cheap and compensating for their crappy BS.

Also, kudos to you for not descending into the Falcon+Harlies mentality that so many Eldar players are.

Falcons and harlies both took a severe swing to the face from the nerf bat this edition, the flying circus is defunct these days.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Definitely agree that it's great for hordes, but I'm curious what you mean by "always hits now"? It still scatters like everything else does unless you roll a bulls eye.

It's loads better than having a 50% chance of hitting nobody. IIRC, submunition uses a Large Template anyhow and since it only needs to partially cover a model to hit it, it has a pretty good chance of doing that every shot.

Trust me, this is a vast improvement

[Erloas]

Long part about the wave serpent and wraithlord:

Spoiler

Show

Well I have normally fielded my wave serpent with scatter lasers (and my other one did) I just decided to put the brightlance on one because I didn't have a lot of other anti-tank (at least in the first rounds before you can charge them or get behind them). Also the wave serpent was going to be flying dire avengers around, they don't generally need or want to get too close so I knew that the wave serpent wasn't going to be moving too fast most of the time.
Of course the wave serpent with the banshees had scatter lasers and it ended up going flat out a turn to get into range. So while I agree that situationally the brightlances could be a poor choice of weapons for the wave serpent, I felt that the role it was taking in my army would allow it to use the brightlances fairly effectively.

Sure the wraithlord is good but he is almost something a list needs to be built around, as opposed to the wave serpent, where in the case of my list it was the difference between paying 20 points more for a brightlance compared to a scatter laser. The TL brightlance on the wave serpent has a better chance of hitting (75%) then on the wraithlord (66%), and of course they are exactly the same in terms of glancing and penetrating. The only reason they weren't effective on my wave serpent was just because I was rolling poorly and having it on a wraithlord wouldn't have changed that.

When you are looking at survivability, the wraithlord isn't really that much more survivable then the wave serpent. Against str5 weapons the wave serpent can't be hurt from the front or the sides, the wraithlord can be wounded on 6s, against str6 both are wounded on 6s, WS can only be glanced. Str 7 is a 5+ to wound for either, str 8 its a 4 for either, and str9-10 is counted as 8 for the wave serpent. Of course the wraithlord has a 3+ save, but most of the high str shots that are likely to wound either of them aren't going to allow for an armor save anyway. He does have 3 wounds, and of course the wave serpent can be killed in a single hit, but most vehicles take (on average) 3-4 pen/glancing shots before they are destroyed too. Sure the wave serpent can be destroyed very quickly in CC if someone can get it to stop but the only way to stop it is to get that first wound and be in range to charge it.

But of course the wraithlord has a lot of abilities that can't be matched, likes its CC ability (virtually guarenteed tank kills in CC) and its flamers. I'm not saying he isn't any good, I'm just saying his use is more situational then the wave serpent. Since many lists are going to include wave serpents anyway, and depending how you expect to use them, the brightlance could be a reasonable choice or a very poor choice. The wraithlord though has to have a decent portion of the list built around him, you need to have a warlock or farseer with him, which means a unit of guardians or jetbikes with the warlock upgrade, or a farseer council, or some other unit to help protect a farseer. (because you don't want a farseer running across the field with your wraithlord when he doesn't have a unit to take some shots for him) You will also likely want some other units around to help support the wraithlord. The other thing about the heavy weapons on the wraithlord is even with a brightlance the wraithlord is still much more dangerous against any opponent in close combat then they are at range and shooting means they can't run (monsterous creatures can run right? I don't see anything in the MC section that excludes it and the running section just says units can run in lieu of shooting and doesn't specify having to be infantry)

As for the autarch on bike compared to a farseer, well the whole point was that I was taking the autarch on a bike to see what he could do. I already know what the farseer was capable of and that doesn't really change much by putting him on a bike.

For the dark reapers, I had 4 of them they just didn't really do much, though they have done great in other games. I don't see any point in taking the EML with them though because the krak is wasted against MEQ, especially compared to their base weapon, and the plasma doesn't negate MEQ saves. And while the krak is decent anti-vehicle, as Tren said, it wasts all the rest of the shots of the unit. The tempest launcher looked nice but so far my uses of it haven't been that great. I've had the best luck so far with the normal reaper launcher and crack shot.

As for the guardian weapon platforms, I said that before. Their BS makes it fairly unreliable with a brightlance or krak EML. The scatter laser isn't a bad choice, but in most cases all of the weapon choices can be taken and used to much the same effect by putting them on vypers or war walkers and for cheaper. I figured if they were going to have an assault heavy weapon they should take advantage of the assault part of it and make use of their suriken catapults which are quite useful against most things. If they aren't close I've got 72 points worth of wounds that do nothing else, which is too much for the few shots they get in a game. I had used them 3 of my previous 4 games with the EML and found them to be mostly ineffective. With the shuriken cannons in this game I found them to be much more effective. They killed more in this game then any other, and while one group was wiped out and the other was down to 2, they just seemed a lot more useful. One thing about guardians taking wounds is that it means they aren't shooting at something else, and they are half the cost of all my aspect warriors (except the dire avengers, and they are still 50% cheaper then them), so those aren't wounds I mind too much. Taking wounds in place of more expensive and dangerous units is half the point of being agressive with them.