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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    What was the online warhammer 40k engine that was talked about last thread near the end?
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Vassal 40k.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Ok. Thanks.

    Does anyone want to play once I get it installed?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by First Speaker View Post
    So, in a 1500 point list, how many flamers of Tzeentch would be too many? I'm looking at basing a Daemon army mostly around them, and, while they are incredibly fragile, derp strike + 12" move + wound on 4+, no save flamer template looks horrific, especially in numbers. So, would taking c. 20 be overkill?
    It's hard to say without the rest of your army. They're very powerful, true, but you only have three elite slots, and flamers have less and less damaging after each effect. Personally, I wouldn't take more than 3-5/6 per choice. I tend to only use them in a group of three as a suicide squad--three of them can gut just about anything that isn't a vehicle.

    And if you use up all your elites, where will your bloodcrushers and fiends go? Think of the fiends!

    Definitely agree that it's great for hordes, but I'm curious what you mean by "always hits now"? It still scatters like everything else does unless you roll a bulls eye.
    In the previous Edition (which was when the Tau codex was released), non-ordanance template weapons (barbed stranglers, submunitions, etc) required a BS roll to 'hit' the squad. Now, template weapons always hit, but scatter. In general, this has increased its power quite a bit, as well as the no more half-covering rules.

    Eldritch storm is a spiffy power, but I don't find it's reliable enough at tank busting at 3 + 2d6. Could it pen a landraider? Yes, but it could also fail to do anything to a rhino. I'd save the points and if you want ranged AT on the farseer just go with the singing spear. Personally though I'd rather opt for just a regular witchblade and get into assault against a tank. 3 S9 attacks against back armor? Yes please! My witchblade toting farseer has even garnered quite the reputation as a dreadnought killer.
    Oh, I agree. I usually have a warlock in a three-man guardian jetbike squad with a spear to do my vehicle hunting. I was merely throwing out suggestions (namely, to spin the vehicle so that a weaker side was facing the firepower).

    At best with fast shot you can shoot 2 missiles with an EML, but you'd want krak as the plasma missles that use the blast marker are only S4. Either way, using the reaper exarch for anti-armor makes for a severe waste of points. At S5 the rest of the squad is going to be lackluster at best against any kind of armor, and their expensive AP3 is going to waste. The reapers are a decidedly anti-infantry squad, and if you equip the exarch with the tempest launcher and crack shot he'll be taking out entire squads of space marines in cover without a save on his own.
    I was thinking of the tempest launcher, not the EML. But yeah, they're purposely anti-heavy infantry. Throwing out suggestions, mostly.

    Definitely agree there, guardians are just meant to be inexpensive bodies to put on an objective, and an EML or scatter laser is the best way to give them some punch while remaining cheap and compensating for their crappy BS.
    There are, of course, storm guardians, who might be okay against IG with a flamer and warlock with destructor. Barbeque. But yeah, I must prefer dire avengers, personally.

    Falcons and harlies both took a severe swing to the face from the nerf bat this edition, the flying circus is defunct these days.
    Just about everything that doesn't have "Marine" in its name took a hit. It may not be the greatest, but they're still rather potent vehicles. Of course, if GW would stop hanging out special rules like candy, many of the nerfs wouldn't be necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Long part about the wave serpent and wraithlord:
    -SNIP-
    Odds are, if someone's going to shoot something at either the wave serpent or the wraithlord, it won't be some pidly S6 weapon. It'll be something that will hurt it, or have a chance to, anyway (like a lascannon). The wraithlord can survive three of those shots (more, with luck, and a little cover). The transport could die with the first shot (or never). In my experience, if a person sees a glass cannon with a lance on it, they gun it, especially if you lack other vehicle targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Snip 2: The Revenge of Snip
    Well, the general consensus is that the Autarch can do just about...nothing that an exarch can't do just as well or better. Except in a jetbike or shining spear squad. Which is a shame, because it's such a great unit.

    Reapers are, generally, only good against MEQs. Taking them against, say, IG, would probably be a waste.

    And, lastly, people are spoiled on BS4 units. :P Try being a tyranid where, in all cases, you have to pay for an upgrade to normal BS on anything larger than a gaunt.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Altima View Post
    Well, the general consensus is that the Autarch can do just about...nothing that an exarch can't do just as well or better. Except in a jetbike or shining spear squad. Which is a shame, because it's such a great unit.
    Actually, an Autarch with Wings can really buff out a Swooping Hawk squad.

    Give him a mandiblaster and a power weapon, and now he and the Exarch make up an honest-to-god jump assault squad. Very nice for eating up shooty units hanging out in the back field.

    Or give him a Fusion gun and you have one of the best tank-hunting squad out there. Shoot 'em in the back for 8+2d6; if there's anything left, assault with Haywire Grenades.

    I've not tried either of these out yet, but I'll be damned if they don't look sweet

    PS - You can probably do the same with Warp Spiders, but I think it's cheaper and more efficient to use Hawks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    Actually, an Autarch with Wings can really buff out a Swooping Hawk squad.

    Give him a mandiblaster and a power weapon, and now he and the Exarch make up an honest-to-god jump assault squad. Very nice for eating up shooty units hanging out in the back field.

    Or give him a Fusion gun and you have one of the best tank-hunting squad out there. Shoot 'em in the back for 8+2d6; if there's anything left, assault with Haywire Grenades.

    I've not tried either of these out yet, but I'll be damned if they don't look sweet

    PS - You can probably do the same with Warp Spiders, but I think it's cheaper and more efficient to use Hawks.
    Yeah, but a swooping hawk squadron should always be doing the grenade ability every turn. Besides, the power weapon won't be that effective, and if you're worried about shooty units in the back, that's what a striking scorpion squad with a fist is for. Good ole outflank.

    Swooping Hawks aren't that great, but dang it, they are some purdy models.

    I kinda like the autarch in a warpspider squad, thoug. Mmm, warpsiders...so good at shredding stuff.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Altima View Post
    Yeah, but a swooping hawk squadron should always be doing the grenade ability every turn. Besides, the power weapon won't be that effective, and if you're worried about shooty units in the back, that's what a striking scorpion squad with a fist is for. Good ole outflank.

    Swooping Hawks aren't that great, but dang it, they are some purdy models.

    I kinda like the autarch in a warpspider squad, thoug. Mmm, warpsiders...so good at shredding stuff.
    See, the thing is Haywire Grenades can be pretty unreliable. First, you have to hit the vehicle - problematic if it has been moving fast and/or is a skimmer. Secondly, you're only likely to do Glancing hits, which, even with a large SH squad, may not do more than cosmetic damage.

    A Fusion Gun in the rear, fired by a BS6 guy? That's going to get one solid penetrating shot for sure.

    As for the CC deal - yes, Scorps are good, but they have to get to the rear. This means crossing a whole darn field of fire to get there. Hawks? They just deepstrike in some isolated part of the table edge and hop-assault into their target. Fast & Clean, they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    See, the thing is Haywire Grenades can be pretty unreliable. First, you have to hit the vehicle - problematic if it has been moving fast and/or is a skimmer. Secondly, you're only likely to do Glancing hits, which, even with a large SH squad, may not do more than cosmetic damage.

    A Fusion Gun in the rear, fired by a BS6 guy? That's going to get one solid penetrating shot for sure.

    As for the CC deal - yes, Scorps are good, but they have to get to the rear. This means crossing a whole darn field of fire to get there. Hawks? They just deepstrike in some isolated part of the table edge and hop-assault into their target. Fast & Clean, they are.
    I meant the grenade packs dropped by their ascension (or whatever it's called) that they drop large pie plates with. The problem with your plan is that there's a very good chance that the hawks will deepstrike somewhere you don't want (even possible that they'll scatter off the board!). They are not very resilient, and rapid fire will easily see them wacked. Worse, possibly, is that they get assaulted by gun liners' counter-chargers, or even their bait units.

    And with the new outflanking rules, scorps pretty much enter play in the rear of the enemy.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    PS - You can probably do the same with Warp Spiders, but I think it's cheaper and more efficient to use Hawks.
    I seem to have done it the hard way - My Mandiblaster/Power Weapon/Fusion Gun equipped Autarch always Deep Strikes with my Warp Spiders, and so far has had fairly mixed results.

    On the one hand he can freely pick and choose a rear-shot at a vehicle once per turn, and then uses his Jump Pack to move away from the enemy and (hopefully) back into cover in the Assault Phase. The fact that he adds a whole lot of 'awesome' in Close Combat to an otherwise shooty-squad is very nice as well, made even better with the WS Exarch's Hit And Run option.

    On the downside, if he's attached to Warp Spiders he's basically an anti-vehicle unit trapped in an Anti-Infantry Squad, meaning that unless he detaches from the Squad (and therefore loses his safety net of comparatively expendable bodies), one or the other is shooting needless at something; AP0 Death Spinners against a Tank, or a s8 Fusion Gun at Imperial Guardsmen.
    To top it all off, Murphy's Law invariably comes into play and the lone Autarch is swallowed into the Warp when I roll a double for his Jump Pack/retreat ability.

    I'm considering swapping him out for another Farseer, to compensate when my original one invariably blows his own head off with a Perils of the Warp test, or maybe something else entirely. Karandras looks like a good investment, what with his Power Claw effectively doing the same task against vehicles while making my Scorpians a lot nastier to boot, and I don't particularly want to make my Dark Reapers any more of a target by giving them Maugan Ra.
    Those guys are awesome at what they do, but I seem to have terrible luck when it comes to rolling their saves and I can't justify making them 200pts more expensive until I figure out how to stop making them an easy blooding for my opponent.....
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzin View Post
    In my short time of playing daemons i found that flamers are pretty much useless unless they're in the correct spot. If you take 20 of them make sure you have enough plaguebearers with banners to DS them in successfully. Deep striking in 3 inches in front of the Marines with 5 overlapping breaths of chaos is a lot of damage, while if they are just 1 or 2 inches to far they get cut up in the round right after.
    Ah, good, a fellow Daemons player.

    So what lists have you found to be good? I'm just playing around with ideas before I commit to getting certain units.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Altima View Post
    Odds are, if someone's going to shoot something at either the wave serpent or the wraithlord, it won't be some pidly S6 weapon. It'll be something that will hurt it, or have a chance to, anyway (like a lascannon). The wraithlord can survive three of those shots (more, with luck, and a little cover). The transport could die with the first shot (or never). In my experience, if a person sees a glass cannon with a lance on it, they gun it, especially if you lack other vehicle targets.
    Well actually most of my tank hunting so far is with s6 weapons, and right now its working pretty well because I have the speed and manuverability to do it. But its a given that for most armies it will be str8-10 hits going for them. Which was my point, because in all cases against the wave serpent (since they are coming from at least mostly stationary targets the chance of getting shot in the back is minimal) str8-10 needs a 4 to glance and a 5/6 to pen, where as with the wraithlord thats a 4/3/2 to wound, and I'm not sure of a single str8-10 weapon that wouldn't negate his save. In terms of cover, being a vehicle or monsterous creature, they are both just as likely to have or not have cover.

    As for the target selection, yeh, it might be more of an issue if I was only running 1-2 vehicles, but so far when I took it I had 1 other wave serpent, 2 war walkers and 2 vypers. And I can't see a whole lot of lists I might make where I don't take at least 1 war walker and vyper, since they are useful and relatively cheap.


    As for the storm guardians compared to the normal guardians, I'm thinking about running some of them, I just don't have any yet. Although I'm not sure the guardians are gaining much, even being up close.
    With the HWG you get 18 shots at BS3 str4 AP5 and 3 more at Str6 AP5 (assuming the up close and personal use with shuriken cannon I'm trying), and 20 WS3 S3 attacks on the charge. With the storm guardians you get 8 BS3 Str4 AP5 shots, 2 flamers or fusion gun, and then 28 WS3 S3 attacks on the charge. Either way, the shuriken weapons are much more dangerous in shooting then either unit in CC. The fusion gun ends up either being shot at something not worth it, or against a vehicle where all of the shuriken pistols are useless and they can't hit in CC, in which case you aren't gaining a whole lot VS a HWG crew sitting back with a EML (same price) or brightlance (5pts more), you get another shot and melta makes it more dangerous, but the unit is a lot more vulnerable. The flamers are where the variables really come in, they are by far the most dangerous guardians of either sort can be against hordes. The storm guardians are better off (not by a lot, but some) if they get charged.
    Since the fusion gun option is better left in the hands of fire dragons, it really comes down to giving them flamers and throwing them in the middle of everything and see what they can do to infantry. With the same save and stats, I'm not sure if one is noticably more effective at that then the other unless there is a decent amount of cover for the flamers to negate (because the cannon would get 1-2 rounds of shooting before closing range). I'll probably give that a try, probably with both HW-Guardisns and Storm Guardians at the same time, when I get around to getting and fielding an Avatar. Not expecting to do that soon, but maybe since I worked 7 hrs of overtime yesterday.

    Edit: Fusion not plasma... I knew it was one of those high str melta weapons
    Last edited by Erloas; 2009-01-12 at 07:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    On the downside, if he's attached to Warp Spiders he's basically an anti-vehicle unit trapped in an Anti-Infantry Squad, meaning that unless he detaches from the Squad (and therefore loses his safety net of comparatively expendable bodies), one or the other is shooting needless at something; AP0 Death Spinners against a Tank, or a s8 Fusion Gun at Imperial Guardsmen.

    To top it all off, Murphy's Law invariably comes into play and the lone Autarch is swallowed into the Warp when I roll a double for his Jump Pack/retreat ability.
    Wait, are Independent Characters that join a unit always counted as a separate unit? If they aren't, why don't you just sacrifice one of the other Warp Spiders when you roll doubles?

    Also: Warp Spiders are excellent anti-vehicle troops! S6 against rear armor glances on a 4 and penetrates on a 5+ - not too shabby! Plus, with Assault 2, they're going to get a lot of shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altima View Post
    I meant the grenade packs dropped by their ascension (or whatever it's called) that they drop large pie plates with. The problem with your plan is that there's a very good chance that the hawks will deepstrike somewhere you don't want (even possible that they'll scatter off the board!). They are not very resilient, and rapid fire will easily see them wacked. Worse, possibly, is that they get assaulted by gun liners' counter-chargers, or even their bait units.

    And with the new outflanking rules, scorps pretty much enter play in the rear of the enemy.
    Grenade Packs aren't anti-vehicle at all, and they don't have enough Strength or AP to take down heavy infantry reliably. An Autarch with Mandiblasters & Power Weapon / Chainsword will add a lot of punch there.

    The traditional way you use Hawks for anti-vehicle is to have them jump & charge a vehicle and hope that 5 Haywire Grenades are enough to screw up the tank. Unless the 5E vehicle damage chart is much more generous, even 5 glancing hits are rarely enough to put down a non-skimmer for good. Adding in a Fusion Gun against the rear armor (or, really, anywhere) will make that squad much more effective.

    As for DS scatter - isn't it only 2d6"? Unless you play on a very small table, you should be able to find a spot where the Hawks can drop without being exposed to lethal fire. The trick is to not put your Hawks next to whatever you want to kill; you put them close, but with safety as your first priority. Then you use their fabulous 12" jump to get wherever you want, fire away, and then assault 6". Sure it takes practice, but believe me, it can be done.

    But tell me more about these outflanking rules. They sound most interesting

    EDIT:
    @Erloas - how the heck do you get all these plasmaguns on Eldar? Was there a Codex update I didn't notice?
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2009-01-12 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    Wait, are Independent Characters that join a unit always counted as a separate unit? If they aren't, why don't you just sacrifice one of the other Warp Spiders when you roll doubles?

    Also: Warp Spiders are excellent anti-vehicle troops! S6 against rear armor glances on a 4 and penetrates on a 5+ - not too shabby! Plus, with Assault 2, they're going to get a lot of shots.
    I had better map out my thought processes here, I've suddenly had a sneaking suspicion that I've been doing something very wrong for a very long time...

    • The Autarch must start the game as part of the Warp Spider unit in order to be placed in Reserve - The ability comes from the WS Exarch, and without it there is no other way for an Autarch with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike.
    • If the Autarch is part of the unit he is subject to the rules for coherency, in that he must remain within 2" of one of his Squadmates and must shoot at the same target as the rest of the Squad.
    • If the 'Warp Spider+Autarch' unit rolls a Double and loses a member, I *AM* allowed to sacrifice a normal Warp Spider if I want to.
    • If, however, I wish to use the Autarch to attack a separate target I must declare him to have left the unit after he has been placed on the table.
    • This means he is no longer subject to coherency, but at the cost of being a Single Model should he be targetted by the enemy or fall prey to the Warp when he attempts to withdraw.


    So unless I have made a serious mistake with regards to the rules for Independant Characters joining a unit, I must either have the Warp Spiders AND the Autarch shoot at the same tank (which, even though they are AP0, we can probably agree is a massive overkill on 95% of targets) or I must split them into 2 units and run the risk of the Autarch having to travel alone.

    Ugh, my poor aching brain - my new Space Marine army won't have to deal with all this aggravation, I can just solve it with more Dreadnoughts!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    So unless I have made a serious mistake with regards to the rules for Independant Characters joining a unit, I must either have the Warp Spiders AND the Autarch shoot at the same tank (which, even though they are AP0, we can probably agree is a massive overkill on 95% of targets) or I must split them into 2 units and run the risk of the Autarch having to travel alone.
    No, that sounds about right. But why worry about overkilling a tank? The nice thing about Warp Spiders is that they can pop back behind cover after doing their thing, so it's not like they need to lay down cover fire to keep from getting chopped up by return fire. A little overkill seems like a fair trade off for preventing the loss of your Autarch.

    Oh, and always remember Rule 37: "There is no overkill. There is only open fire and I need to reload."
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2009-01-12 at 04:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The Autarch must start the game as part of the Warp Spider unit in order to be placed in Reserve - The ability comes from the WS Exarch, and without it there is no other way for an Autarch with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike.
    :
    Everything you mentioned looks right to me, but in 5th edition all jump infantry come with the deepstrike rule by default. So you don't even have to buy the exarch power for the spiders anymore, they can already DS, and you could even have your lone autarch with hawk wings or warp jump generator go all Rambo and deepstrike by his lonesome behind a tank with that fusion gun.
    Last edited by Tren; 2009-01-12 at 04:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    EDIT: Dang, two long posts in a row. I'll spoiler my stuff to cut down on length.

    Well, I'm back with tales of bravery and adventure. Well... more or less. I played my 1000 'naught list all right, but against a supprise enemy. My own Necrons!

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    My brother wanted to try them out, so we got down to it. I didn't make any changes to the 'naught's loadout, but it wouldn't have made any differance either way. He knew what I was taking, so he designed his list to counter the 'naughts as best he could. 2 Scarab Swarms with Disruption fields, two squads of 10xWarriors, 2 Necron Lords both with Resurection Orbs attatched to the warriors, 3 Heavy Destroyers, and I think that was about it.

    The game was largely uneventfull. He tied up both the Plas'naughts with the scarabs for practicaly the entire game, so the did largely nothing except defend themselves. Around the end of turn 5 Plas'naught 1 was dead from massive glancing, and the Plas'naught 2's Plasma Cannon was destroyed. The second one survived with the help of the Storm Troopers assulting the rear of the scarabs. The Grey Knights killed a lord and a bunch of Necrons before going down due to poor rolls and ignored armor saves (dang staff of light). My Brother-Captain single-handedly faced down the other Warrior squad + Lord and killed the lord and five others before going down due to an unlucky roll (because I can't nail a 4+ save consistantly to save my life ). The Las'naught did practicaly nothing the entire game, killing maybe three warriors. I just made a lot of poor rolls with 'em.

    I won by Phase Out, but I only had a crippled 'naught and a curiously untouched squad of Storm Troopers. Still, it was a fun game, so it didn't matter who won.


    And then there was the 'other' game. It was 1500 points against Tyranid. I knew I would be outnumbered by an ungodly ammount, so I said to hell with it and just took my 'naught list and tacked on a full squad of Grey Knights Terminators (9 + Brother-Captain). My god do those things eat up points! Around 460 points, give or take 25.

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    It was funny, there was my side of the board, with ten Grey Knights, ten Storm Troopers, and three Dreadnaughts (I was deep striking the terminators). Then there was his side, at least two full squads of gaunts (I can't remember which), three Carnifex, two Genestealer Broods, two Genestealer Broodlords (one being his Main HQ choise), three Lictors, 3 psyker things who's name escapes me, and some misc. other things.

    What basicaly happened was the Knights and Storm Troopers got nom nom nom'ed along side the Las'naught, while the two Plas'naughts and the Terminators kicked ass. The Terminators more than paid for themselves in the sheer amount of Tyranid killed. Totaly awesome. The Las'naught, however, was the worst model in the game. I only ever rolled ones on the 'to-hit' rolls, and if not that it was on the 'to-wound' rolls! I was glad when it died. I belive it was because I was using a Eldar Wraithlord to proxy the 'naught. Eldar models curse their player when used as proxies, or at the very least they curse me. It didn't suck as much against the Necrons because I was using a Warwalker to proxy it then.

    So yeah, eventualy the Terminators just get dragged down once my opponent started sending everything he had at them, and two Carnifex ganged up on the 'naughts to take them down. So I may have lost, but I had lots of fun doing so.


    Oh, and a quick question. Dreadnaught Close Combat weapons, do they act exactly as a power fist? As in, reduces his attacks to Initiative 1? Because that is what everybody at the shop says. I doubt it though, cause it does not say so in the rulebook, at least anywhere I could find.[/spoiler]
    Last edited by Ghal Marak; 2009-01-12 at 05:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm considering swapping him out for another Farseer, to compensate when my original one invariably blows his own head off with a Perils of the Warp test, or maybe something else entirely. Karandras looks like a good investment, what with his Power Claw effectively doing the same task against vehicles while making my Scorpians a lot nastier to boot, and I don't particularly want to make my Dark Reapers any more of a target by giving them Maugan Ra.
    ...
    Farseers (Doom, Fortune, and Guide!) are great, and I see Eldrad in many, many lists, too. Karandras is one of the best Phoenix Lords (and he can fleet, too, unlike other scorpions). His one problem is lack of an invul save, so adding him to a group of scorpions can help increase his killies. Hopefully, though, any unit he and the scorpions would engage would be back-line shooty squads (like the inevitable tac combat squads sitting lone in the back with the ML). The Avatar is a good choice, too. I sometimes, if I play more defensively against extremely aggressive armies, use him as a countercharge unit (quite effective against Tyranids who need to get close to use their most effective weapons).

    Ah, good, a fellow Daemons player.

    So what lists have you found to be good? I'm just playing around with ideas before I commit to getting certain units.
    Well, you didn't ask me, but I'll give some advice. Honestly, there's really not any 'bad' choice when using the army. Very good units include: Heralds on chariots, bloodletters against MEQs, daemonettes against hordes, bloodcrushers, fiends, nurglings, and the Soul Grinder. It really depends on what theme you're going with: mono-god, dual-god, multi-god, shooty list, CC list, Nurgle Tally-man list (which is fun, fun).

    Also: Warp Spiders are excellent anti-vehicle troops! S6 against rear armor glances on a 4 and penetrates on a 5+ - not too shabby! Plus, with Assault 2, they're going to get a lot of shots.
    However, because of their AP, they have a penalty on the vehicle damage roll (-2 if I'm not mistaken), which can really hurt blowing anything up.

    But tell me more about these outflanking rules. They sound most interesting
    Basically, anything with scout/infiltrate, in lieu of the scout move or infiltration, can choose to outflank. There are some rules, but, basically, it allows you to come in along the side table edges. This allows assault squads to get dangerously close without being shot up (and gets them close to weak vehicles and shooty squads). Watch in terror as a broodlord with full retinue pops out right next to your poor, poor units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith
    -Snip-
    This is correct. In fact, an IC joins or leaves a squad in the movement phase. All models in a squad shoot at the same target (unless you're Space Marines, but they're so special they don't have to follow the rules). So yeah, generally, if you're in desperate need of anti-tank, take fire dragons. Leave anti-infantry for purely anti infantry (or, worse case, haywire grenades so you can smack rear armor).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle Hunter
    No, that sounds about right. But why worry about overkilling a tank? The nice thing about Warp Spiders is that they can pop back behind cover after doing their thing, so it's not like they need to lay down cover fire to keep from getting chopped up by return fire. A little overkill seems like a fair trade off for preventing the loss of your Autarch.
    As I may have mentioned in a previous Thread, I have unfortunately broken the meta-game in my local pool of opponents. Sufficed to say, killing 2 Tanks per turn - or killing one tank and a whole mess of Troops with Deathspinners - early in the game has become extremely urgent!
    Overkill is GREAT - what I'm trying to do is inflict it on as many different units at the same time as I can!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tren View Post
    Everything you mentioned looks right to me, but in 5th edition all jump infantry come with the deepstrike rule by default. So you don't even have to buy the exarch power for the spiders anymore, they can already DS, and you could even have your lone autarch with hawk wings or warp jump generator go all Rambo and deepstrike by his lonesome behind a tank with that fusion gun.
    Ah yes, Codex vs. Updated Rulebook. I never thought of that, so thank you Tren
    Even so, it doesn't solve the problem of the Autarch being alone when the dice go wrong - all in all, I'm probably better off with another unit of tooled-up Warp Spiders, and making up the difference with extra bodies.

    Thanks for the ideas though!

    This is correct. In fact, an IC joins or leaves a squad in the movement phase. All models in a squad shoot at the same target (unless you're Space Marines, but they're so special they don't have to follow the rules). So yeah, generally, if you're in desperate need of anti-tank, take fire dragons. Leave anti-infantry for purely anti infantry (or, worse case, haywire grenades so you can smack rear armor).
    Guven that on top of the Autarch and Warp Spiders I'm already fielding 20 Wraithguard and 2 Wraithlord (in a 2000 points army), I'm probably just being greedy when it comes to killing Tanks.
    All in all, I'm probably better off forgetting the Autarch entirely and reinforcing the Scorpions - even alone, those guys have done things that verge on the heroic, and that's even before I'd tried out the Outflank rules.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2009-01-12 at 05:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Ah, good, a fellow Daemons player.

    So what lists have you found to be good? I'm just playing around with ideas before I commit to getting certain units.
    Depends how many points. My army is usually a Khorne/Nurgle army.

    20 bloodletters(2 squads of 10, both carrying an instrument), 10 plaugebearers(2 squads of 5, both carry a chaos icon), a herald (iron hide, Death strike, Juggernaut), 3 bloodcrushers, and a soulgrinder (phelgm and tounge). The main tactic i use is plaugebearers walking up to the enemy and then i bring down the bloodletters. The soulgrinder(depending on when he gets in) usually is put somewhere where it can use its phlegm cannon and harvester to maximum effect or if it appears late game hunts tanks with its tounge. The herald and the bloodcrushers run around and usually mop up shooting squads that the bloodletters cant reach

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzin View Post
    Depends how many points. My army is usually a Khorne/Nurgle army.

    20 bloodletters(2 squads of 10, both carrying an instrument), 10 plaugebearers(2 squads of 5, both carry a chaos icon), a herald (iron hide, Death strike, Juggernaut), 3 bloodcrushers, and a soulgrinder (phelgm and tounge). The main tactic i use is plaugebearers walking up to the enemy and then i bring down the bloodletters. The soulgrinder(depending on when he gets in) usually is put somewhere where it can use its phlegm cannon and harvester to maximum effect or if it appears late game hunts tanks with its tounge. The herald and the bloodcrushers run around and usually mop up shooting squads that the bloodletters cant reach
    Isn't that putting all your anti-vehicle eggs in one basket? Vehicles were what I was mostly worrying about.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    When i play my blood crushers can destroy lighter vehicles with there S6 and 4 attacks each, and with S5 the bloodletters could destroy rhinos and the such. Most of the time i didn't have much problems with vehicles.
    Last edited by Rayzin; 2009-01-12 at 06:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzin View Post
    I have had in my blood crushers destroy lighter vehicles with there S6 and 4 attacks each, and with S5 the bloodletters could destroy rhinos and the such. Most of the time i didn't have much problems with them.
    'k, I'll look into that. Heretofore, I'd been looking at blood crushers as 'super assault terminators', but, now you mention it, they would work against light vehicles ...

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    Hello again. Is anyone on vassal 40k right now? I'm looking for a game.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Hi there, may I know how to post an excel sheet here? I have made my first IG army (1985 points) with Tau support, and I would like to try to post the tables here..

    On the other hand, let's just do it by hand. I still would like to have peoples here to tell me how to post a nice table..

    Command Platoon (HQ 1)

    Command Squad
    Junior Officer (40 Points), Honoriras Imperialis (25 Points), Carapace Armour (5 Points)
    4 Shock Troopers, Master Vox-Caster (25), 1 Veteran with Company Standard (11)

    Support Elements
    Sentinel Squad (1 Sentinel) (35 points), Multi-Laser (10 Points)

    Fire Support Squads (35 Points), 3x Autocannon (60)

    2 Commissars (80 Points)

    Infantry Platoon (Troop 1)
    Platoon Command Squad
    Junior Officer (40), Carapace Armour (5), Trademark Item (10), Power Sword (5)
    4 Shock Troopers, 1 Veteran with Medic (11)
    Chimaera Transport (70), Heavy Bolter on Turret (10), Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter (5), Heavy Stubber (12), Rough Terrain Mod. (5)

    Infantry Squad 1
    Lascannon (25), Vox-Caster (5)

    Infantry Squad 2
    Lascannon (25), Vox-Caster (5)

    Infantry Platoon (Troop 2)
    Platoon Command Squad
    Junior Officer (40), Carapace Armour (5), Trademark Item (10)
    4 Shock Troopers, Plasma Gun (10)

    Infantry Squad 1
    Lascannon (25), Vox-Caster (5), Meltagun (10)

    Infantry Squad 2
    Meltagun (10), Vox-Caster (5)

    Storm Troopers(Elite 1)
    10 Stormtroopers (100), Flamer (6), Grenade Launcher (8)
    Chimaera Transport (70), Turret Heavy Bolter (10), Heavy Stubber (12), Rough Terrain Mod (5)

    Stealth Team (Tau detachment) (Elite 2)
    3 Shas'ui (90 points), Team Leader upgrade (5), Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 1 Marker Drone (30), 3x Targeting Array (30)

    Hellhound (Fast Attack 1)
    Hellound (115), Rough Terrain Mod (5)

    Leman Russ (Heavy Support 1)
    Leman Russ (140), Heavy Bolter Hull (5), Heavy Bolter Sponsor (10)

    Leman Russ (Heavy Support 2)
    Leman Russ (140), Heavy Bolter Hull (5), Heavy Bolter Sponsor (10)

    Basilisk (Heavy Support 3)
    Basilisk (100), Indirect Fire (25)

    Storm Trooper (Doctrin 1)

    Cameleoline (Doctrin 2)
    4 Shock Troopers Unit (40), 1 Storm Trooper Unit (10), 3 Command Squad (30), 1 Heavy Support Squad (10)

    Sharpshooters (Doctrin 3)
    4 Shock TRoopers Unit (40), 1 Heavy Weapon Squad (10)

    Stealth Team Support (Doctrin 4)


    I hope to be able to use the Chimaeras + Stealth team to take a hold somewhere and advanced position so I will be able to smash them hard with my general troops + tank.

    Z-Axis, I await your jugement. Please send me to the Imperial Inquisition if you think I have erred as a General, and that I harbour traitorous toughts.
    Last edited by SolkaTruesilver; 2009-01-12 at 07:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    One question I was wondering about (for the record, I do not plan to do such an unfluffy thing, I'm just curious) - theoretically, there is nothing in the current rules that forbids an Independent Character bearing the Mark of any particular Chaos God to join a squad that follows (be it by having an Icon or by being something like Khornate Berzerkers or Slaaneshi Noise Marines or alike) a different God, right?

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
    Hi there, may I know how to post an excel sheet here? I have made my first IG army (1991 points) with Tau support, and I would like to try to post the tables here..
    I believe if you want to post the Excel sheets, you will have little other options than making screenshots, uploading those somewhere to a place like Photobucket, and posting them as images; alternately, you could upload the sheets themselves somewhere and post the link to them.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2009-01-12 at 07:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
    Leman Russ

    Leman Russ

    Basilisk
    Well, it's got my approval!

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    One question I was wondering about (for the record, I do not plan to do such an unfluffy thing, I'm just curious) - theoretically, there is nothing in the current rules that forbids an Independent Character bearing the Mark of any particular Chaos God to join a squad that follows (be it by having an Icon or by being something like Khornate Berzerkers or Slaaneshi Noise Marines or alike) a different God, right?
    You certainly can't do that with Chaos Daemons, but I don't know about their traitor Astartes brethren.
    Last edited by Illiterate Scribe; 2009-01-12 at 07:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    SolkaTruesilver: Most players will not allow you to play with non-canon 'allied' units outside of Apocalypse settings.

    Otherwise, you'd end up with Dark Eldar players with terminators. Or basilisks and leman russes. Or Tau with wyches, genestealers, or harlies.

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    @Oracle_Hunter I fixed the plasma instead of fusion thing. Both are tank killing melta weapons, just one has much better range.

    SolkaTruesilver maybe its just because I don't know the IG very well, but how you have your list makes it hard to tell exactly what you have. Also you should generally only give total unit cost and don't break down the upgrades and items to individual point cost. It makes it harder to read and in most Warhammer forums is not allowed as it is considered posting copywrited material. Not sure the policy here, but I think GWs general guidelines about those sorts of things is that posting lists and unit costs is fine but it shouldn't be broken down to the point where someone else can get all the point costs for the army without having the book.

    If I'm reading it right you seem to have only a hand full of infantry, and most of the squads seem to only be 5-8 models big. Needing only 2 wounds to cause a morale test and guard being as easy to kill as they are it seems like you are going to have a lot of running troops pretty quickly. Not sure how well having Tau in your list would go over with your opponents, but I'm assuming you already know the people you will be gaming with aren't going to have a problem with that sort of thing.

    It might be ok in an anihilation game, but it doesn't seem like you have much of anything for troops that would actually be able to take and hold an objective against any sort of an opponent force going for the same objective. What would happen in a capture and control mission if you had to try and take an opponents base?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    If I'm reading it right you seem to have only a hand full of infantry, and most of the squads seem to only be 5-8 models big. Needing only 2 wounds to cause a morale test and guard being as easy to kill as they are it seems like you are going to have a lot of running troops pretty quickly. Not sure how well having Tau in your list would go over with your opponents, but I'm assuming you already know the people you will be gaming with aren't going to have a problem with that sort of thing.
    Most IG units have 10 soldiers in them.. But yhea, maybe I lack infantry... I have about.. lemme count..

    40 (Squads) + 6 (heavy weapons) + 15 (Command squads) + 10 (Stormtroopers) = 71. Not ennough? Will conscripts be good ennough...?

    I know Tau is not Kosher for IG, but I have designed my whole army around the concept of a Gue'Vesa guard unit, with (limited) Tau overseers/limited support. I will make lists for Kosher games..

    thank you for the noticing of never posting all point breakdown. I will take care next time not to do it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

    Quote Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
    Most IG units have 10 soldiers in them.. But yhea, maybe I lack infantry... I have about.. lemme count..

    40 (Squads) + 6 (heavy weapons) + 15 (Command squads) + 10 (Stormtroopers) = 71. Not ennough? Will conscripts be good ennough...?
    How you wrote up the list I didn't know how many troops you had, I guess it was implied to you that most of the units were 10 models base, I didn't know that.

    For comparision, my eldar 2000 point list happens to have 70 infantry as well, considering eldar are fairly elite (somewhere in the middle in terms of horde and elite) and guard are supposed to be hordy it still seems a bit low.

    As for helping with the list more, I just don't know the IG well enough. I've killed them a couple times but I have no idea on all their options.

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